I think you're over-reaching there, Coach. It wasn't an inquiry into my feelings -- it was a "what am I doing wrong? You're the one who wrote the medium e-mail!" kind of query.
Frankly, WAW's communication skills are first-rate -- outward-bound. In-bound, she hears what she wants to hear. Has always been that way.
This wasn't an opportunity for WAW to "hear" me. It was an opportunity to get p/o'd, which she obviously hasn't had enough of in recent days. This is a woman who will say she "wants to talk" and "be open," but who, whenever the conversation goes any way other than hers, will simply declare, "Well obviously we can't talk about this," get up, and storm out of the room.
Typical Example:
W: "We should talk about the spousal support." SP: Okay. W: "How much do you want?" SP: I don't know; I haven't seen any numbers. What did Attorney Friend say was the County default number? W: Well, it's obvious we can't talk about this. I knew you'd say you were going to go for the jugular. I knew you'd be completely unreasonable! [Storms off]
Where the prescribed answer is, "Why, nothing, darling! I just consider myself fortunate to have had the opportunity to have been married to you! I should be paying you for the privilege of getting divorced! In fact, let me get out the checkbook right now."
Though recently she's changed "go for the jugular" to "f*** me in the ***."
taking notes here smiley. I'd like to humbly suggest you don't agree to have a conversation unless you know what you want. I'm sure the issue is broader...she's difficut. But, I think you've got to have your own pros and your own numbers and your own rationale priror to engaging. Otherwise it becomes some amorphous, sort of rhetorical dialog with too much room for diversion/interpretation...
I think you're over-reaching there, Coach. It wasn't an inquiry into my feelings -- it was a "what am I doing wrong? You're the one who wrote the medium e-mail!" kind of query.
Frankly, WAW's communication skills are first-rate -- outward-bound. In-bound, she hears what she wants to hear. Has always been that way.
This wasn't an opportunity for WAW to "hear" me. It was an opportunity to get p/o'd, which she obviously hasn't had enough of in recent days. This is a woman who will say she "wants to talk" and "be open," but who, whenever the conversation goes any way other than hers, will simply declare, "Well obviously we can't talk about this," get up, and storm out of the room.
Typical Example:
W: "We should talk about the spousal support." SP: Okay. W: "How much do you want?" SP: I don't know; I haven't seen any numbers. What did Attorney Friend say was the County default number? W: Well, it's obvious we can't talk about this. I knew you'd say you were going to go for the jugular. I knew you'd be completely unreasonable! [Storms off]
Where the prescribed answer is, "Why, nothing, darling! I just consider myself fortunate to have had the opportunity to have been married to you! I should be paying you for the privilege of getting divorced! In fact, let me get out the checkbook right now."
Though recently she's changed "go for the jugular" to "f*** me in the ***."
Hey we're making progress, I told you she wanted some "action" from you.
The next time she says this, tell her "...I do want to f*** you in the a** but in the bedroom, not here in the office" and wink at her
This is all her testing you, continue to see it like this and respond accordingly.
And I wasn't joking about the response I posted above either, try it, show her you're funny, be confident about it too when you say it.
In-bound, she hears what she wants hear. Has always been that way.
How would you know what she hears?
It's always been that way? Really? Have you read "Learned Optimism" by Martin Seligman. Always is pessimistic thinking it's permanent. That book helped me.
Remember her getting angry is good. Next time she get's POd think OK this is good then ask yourself how do I get to the real reason she is upset. This is the motherlode of connecting. Plan on how you can keep a dialouge going when she is mad (test). Easy way to diffuse someone is to agree with them. "I understand why you might feel I am going for the jugular but that is not my intention. I honestly don't know what the spousal support number should be sounds like a legal questions to me. Maybe it is best we leave this up to the lawyers. This isn't a threat but a solution to a problem we have that is very upsetting for me and it appears to cause you a lot of stress as well."
Quote:
whenever the conversation goes any way other than hers, will simply declare, "Well obviously we can't talk about this," get up, and storm out of the room.
Follow her (giving her space) and respond "Why do you feel that way?" Let her unload on you and you take it because it's anger being released. I'm not condoning you get abused here but she needs to let fly and she needs to see you acknowledge her anger, frustration and pain. No negative emotions on your part just compassion and empathy. Agree with her unless she starts to tell you what you think or feel. She feels what she feels and you feel what you feel. If you don't do it she will find someone else who will. This is one of those unwritten tests that men are clueless about when dealing with their women. If you get nothing else out of this remember her anger means she is attached. She is a pressure cooker and you need to help her release some pressure before she explodes. The move out date is approaching, there are legal issues, financial issues, the kids, all of this is pressure. Lead. You can handle it. Cheers
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
The rollercoaster carts are ratcheting up the incline ...chk chk chk chk... and soon they will slowly crest over the top and begin screeeeeeeeammming down the other side.
It's going to be a up and down ride for both of you as you get closer to that date. Find a safe place to vent, cry, be happy, whatever, but keep it together and keep the friendiness thing going. This is what you've trained for.
"My actions are my only true belongings. I cannot escape the consequences of my actions. My actions are the ground upon which I stand." Thich Nhat Hanh
"SP: I don't know; I haven't seen any numbers. What did Attorney Friend say was the County default number?"
The default is calculated by a software program called "Dissomaster" and the inputs to the program are a bunch of financial numbers such as your income, her income, certain essential expenses, taxes withheld, etc. It's not something you or she can simply pull out of a hat. And in some states if you've been married over a certain # of years (typically 10) its for an indefinite period of time as long as there is a significant income differential and the recipient does not re-marry. There, that's your final answer! No need of hemming or hawing.
<< Agree with her unless she starts to tell you what you think or feel.
I've always wondered where the fine line of "abuse" is when these WAWs are ranting and raving with all sorts of personal attacks where history gets rewritten? The most natural response for a man when the pressure cooker goes off like this is fight or fright. Either you quickly put the weight on the pressure cooker valve or you run a mile. So when you start saying "sorry you feel that way, ..." they smell a rat.
At any rate if the above happens say: "Who know's better how I think or feel? You? Or me?"
Blue Dog, Your woman asks you, "why are you upset?" She wants to understand your feelings. It's kinda like reverse validating. So a great response to encourage a dialouge instead of a argument (no more twisting or confusion) - H- Thanks for asking. I feel_____________ when you do______________________. Can you now see why I might be upset? W -response H- Yes, you understand thank you. How do you feel about that or why do you feel that way? No, How can I help you understand? No more defensiveness, we are seeking to understand, I am asking how you genuinely feel. We get upset when are aren't being heard. Being heard means someone is showing you interest, compassion, love. You have great empathy for people dealing with A, it's your ministry. I struggled and still screw up with really listening to what my W is telling me. It's not the way guys talk or communicate. When I listen to understand it's different than listening just to hear.
SP, I think one of the points the W are making to you is are you communicating to be "right" or to do the right thing?
Cheers
I see your point, but I guess I didn't see his wife's ranting complaint as a true cry for more/better communication of his feelings. I saw it just as gritchin' at him. Maybe I'm wrong.
<< Agree with her unless she starts to tell you what you think or feel.
I've always wondered where the fine line of "abuse" is when these WAWs are ranting and raving with all sorts of personal attacks where history gets rewritten? The most natural response for a man when the pressure cooker goes off like this is fight or fright. Either you quickly put the weight on the pressure cooker valve or you run a mile. So when you start saying "sorry you feel that way, ..." they smell a rat.
At any rate if the above happens say: "Who know's better how I think or feel? You? Or me?"
Nobody is saying you have to be a prick or an a$$hole when the WAS/WAW goes off on an anger spree and starts saying hurtful things. You are the best person to know when they cross the line or not. If they are communicating you will know, if they are spewing forth crap just to hurt you, you will know as well and when it's the latter, you can either stay and join in the argument or you can try smiling and walking away.
In fact I've taken it one step further and I'm not saying anyone has to do this but sometimes it helps when setting boundaries with how someone treats you.
My wife at one point used to be extremely cruel when talking to me, she would say things that a few years ago would literally make me misty and I felt so powerless. I got a kick in the a$$ from a friend who was tired of seeing me get hurt & being treated/abused in this way.
How did I stop her in her tracks? Well while my wife was going off on one of her verbal assaults on me (and they do get cruel & spiteful), instead of joining in the argument I just stood there with my hands on my hips and started shaking my head and looking at her with disgust & utter annoyance but I didn't say a thing, after a while she stopped her rant and asked me if that's all I was going to do. I told her that when she acted poorly,extremely cruel and angry towards me that I found her physically unattractive, I was literally getting disgusted & repulsed looking at her and I couldn't stand the sight of her anymore. I then told her I wouldn't reward her crap behavior with my attention anymore and that if she wanted to bully someone, she could go down the street to the local elementary school and pick on some little kid more her size and then I walked away. I continued doing this everytime she started her verbal abuse against me and reminded her that she was a bully.
Bullies tend to do well against those that will just take their abuse repeatedly, people who have low self-esteem - it's like they can smell it/sense it.
When you make a stand (and it doesn't have to be angry or violent) and tell them you won't tolerate their crap anymore (specifically WAW's that treat their LBS poorly), you communicate that you respect yourself enough that you are willing to let go of the people that don't love or respect you. There is no trick involved in getting this to work, you just have to mean it, it has to be genuine - if you're just saying words but there is no real meaning behind it, they can tell, they have great intuition with this stuff. Telling her she was unattractive during rant was a double whammy: while they're out having affairs, they feel very attractive with the people they are seeing plus they know you're at home frantically trying to get the marriage back on track - it's an ego boost, and they feel very powerful because of it. When you tell them they're unattractive and you don't want to look at them anymore (again you have to mean it, I know I did), it wakes them up a bit and brings them into reality. When the LBS is no longer sitting at home pleading for them to come back & hoping the marriage will one day be reconciled, the affairs that the WAS's are engaged in aren't as exciting as they were previously. Cheating on a spouse who loves you and is actively trying to save the marriage makes the WAS feel guilty but they still do it, affairs are exciting. When the LBS stops pursuing the WAS and gives up and assumes the marriage is over and starts moving on with their life, the excitement that the WAS experiences from their affair is diminished quite a bit to the point where they question why they're doing what they're doing. That's why GAL, going dark, 180's and LRT are effective - once you stop pursuing, you get a life, start to move on, act as if life is great and even better now that things are the way they are - you kill the excitement that the WAS is having, you generate doubt at their end and they start questioning everything they're doing.
