WAW - Very confused and devastated - pt 10

[confusedinpa]

Hi confussed......we are going to get you "unconfused" yet!

Sandi - I hope you are right! I think I try so hard to get unconfused that I confuse myself! Of course having a sore head from all the 2x4's that are flying around here isn't helping either - just kidding :-)

I do appreciate all the time and energy you put into sharing your insights with me. This must be particularly hard when you're recovering from the flu.

I've really spent a lot of time the last couple of nites rereading my threads and thinking/absorbing what people here have been telling me.

As for you deciding about being friends, just let me say that most couples have to have a cooling off period b/c everything is too fresh and raw.

Maybe that's why I am so torn on that decision. I'm trying it now, part of my change in DB/DR approach - as I will be friendly when she calls. As a friend, I will, model what KittyFish originally wrote "What I wanted to see was a partnership- someone who valued me- respected me- and most importantly someone who wanted to meet my needs. Someone who listened to me and took the time to intimately know me.". As Coach had pointed out, this is all about her. I'm not doing this because this as a ploy to win/trick my wife back, but is something that is needed even in a healthy co-parenting relationship.

What I find interesting is that what KittyFish posts seems to applies to true friends as well as your spouse.

BUT even friends will have boundaries. So, TODAY I will set a boundary that I will no longer be blamed for her hurt and pain. TODAY, I will not appologize for something that I already appologize for. If she can not accept the appology and forgive and let it go, that will be her cross to bear. I can not continue to bear her burden. TODAY I will begin to forgive myself.

I know I will not be perfect as I journey down this path, I will trip and fall, but know that there are people here who will pick me back up and help me with my wounds. At times, my boundaries may fall, but people here will supply me with 2x4's to rebuild the boundaries.

I know I will need to be stronger now than I have ever been in my life. I've had a lot of battles/hardships that I've fought through and I need to remind myself that not only did I survive them, I became stronger and better and thrived. I must have the confidence that I will continue to do that.

Oh, my. I am sorry if your head is sore from my 2x4's but this is not what you need to do. I may stand alone on this issue....from the other posters you've had. I haven't read all of the posts, so I don't know, but I can promise you that I do not stand alone on this principle (where the vets on the board are concerned)...no offense to anybody, BTW. And, I certainly don't stand alone on this principle where the WAW's are concerned! If you want to know what you are doing wrong, just ask the WAW's. Okay, so back to what I started to say....... ........So, were you trying to "work her"? I mean, were you trying to "settle her down"? Were you afraid that she would get off on another "let's have a blame game" and you were trying to put the brakes on before it started? I just think that is sad. How long have you had to live in that kind of environment? It isn't confusing her, sweetie, it just plain isn't working.

Sandi - I wasn't trying to work her. I was trying to be friendly. This is one area that has been really confusing for me in trying to gauge "results". I had been Dark/Dim and all I got was that I was being mean/cold and that I hadn't changed as she felt I was still ignoring her, not talking to her, etc.

I guess this is part of the fine balance of letting her know that I really still love her but I am prepared for a life without her. It's not a "trick" that I'm trying to do, but it's a reality. I know up to this point, I've done a poor job of letting her know I really do love her. All through out counseling last year, she would say how she knew I loved her but didn't feel it. I didn't understand what she meant, nor did our old counselor help me understand it either. I understand it now. Even when she left, she felt that all the changes I've made were just physical changes. I didn't understand that either until recently. She still doesn't feel/believe that I love her.

I suspect that she thinks, like my therapist keeps beating me up on, that I just want the safety, security and comfort of the family back together. Not because I love my wife, but because it was comfortable. That's not the kind of marriage that my wife wants to be in, nor do I. I want it to be a loving marriage, not just a comfortable one.

Hence, I'm trying to show her that I really do love her while I am prepared for a life without her.

Does that make sense? Or is that just crazy? Or is it so stupid, even coming from a DAM?

I have already told you in past posts, but your posts clearly pointed out that you did not agree and, in fact, took up for her. That is when I said that you were seeing her through eyes of love.......or else you have been in denial for a long time.

So is this what your gut still says?

"Frankly, I believe she moved out to get your attention! She is not GAL. She is not acting like a WAW who has OM ususally acts. So, I think it was to make a loud statement to you about her unhappiness. However, if she gets your attention by behaving like this, it would be the same principle of children getting what they want from bad behavior. She may think she wants you to go "crawling & begging" her to come home, but she would not respect you if you did. "

"She is not the typical WAW b/c she does not want to turn loose of her control over you. She wants you to chase and pursue her like in the romance books."

You had also mentioned that she was trying to control the situation/relationship now and trying to pull my strings like a puppet.

"she is not a forgiving person and hangs onto the hurt/anger and does not let it go"

"My personal thoughts about it all is that there may be "hope" after a D, but I don't see a lot of it now."

So did I capture your gut correctly? Or did I miss something?

The more I reread it and think about it, the more I think it's true - particularly the part on hope. That doesn't mean that I'm giving up hope, but just trying to face the reality (ala Coach - "Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.")

So I do have faith that I will have a happy, better life than I have now (or in the last couple of years of my marriage)....

I will add that I think she has convinced you, after all these years, that she is a poor victim who has been hurt and just cannot take a chance on allowing you to do that again. Therefore, she chunks any hope of giving her boys a home with both parents there for them and a loving M for the two of you. That is what I call being very self-centered.

So.....there have been a lot of people hurt by other people in their lives. So have you! Look at her doing the hurt to you. What if you were to throw that back in her face and tell her that she has hurt you so badly that you can't trust her to give it another chance? You know what? SHE WOULD NOT HEAR YOU.

I had said that to her several times before. How I know I had hurt her in the past, but I didn't realize it so it was not a conscious choice. Now she is hurting me and the boys and that is her conscious choice. It is not my choice. That's all on her.

She got mad and just said that the boys will get over it and be fine. She said that it may hurt the boys now, but it will not be healthy for the boys to see grow up with parents with our relationship. That I can't blame her for any of this as she tried everything that she knew/could do and that I pushed her to this point and it hurts so bad that she has no good choice as this isn't what she wants either.

I had responded that if that's not what she wants either, than why is she doing it?

She never really responds to that one

Anothernightmare offered good insight - that right now she can't see her ever being happy with me.

A lot of unfairness happens to people, but if we grow up to be adults, like we are suppose to, then we realize that it doesn't HAVE to be the end if we CHOOSE differently. She, however, has not chosen any other way. I think she feeds off of the stuff that happen to her and she doesn't choose to let go b/c SHE DOESN'T WANT TO LET GO. A person has to want to get better and be happy. It is as if she just "dares" anybody to TRY and MAKE her happy. Well, it doesn't work that way, b/c nobody can MAKE another person happy. We are the only ones that have the power to make ourselves happy.

Ironically, I believe she thinks she is doing all this to escape the pain/hurt so she will be happy. Perhaps she hasn't found the happiness yet. Or what. I don't know. I do know she doesn't want to let go of the hurt. She's not ready to make that choice.

Oh sweetie (and I call my "favorites" sweetie....no offense intended)....if only you knew what I put myself through after I came out of the fog. I wanted to die. I think I would have felt much better if I had died. To live with what I had done was much, much harder. Forgiveness is a choice. We choose to forgive others. The second verse to that is that the same principle applies when forgiving ourselves. It is a choice. Easy? No way. Hardest thing I ever did. I did not deserve anybody's forgiveness....let alone my own. But in order to be better for my loved ones and to move forward in life and leave this horrible stuff in the past......I had to do it. At first, it was every day. I would face myself and all the "uglies" in me and tell myself that I chose to forgive myself. It isn't a "feeling"....it is a act of will. In time, a sense of peace finally comes, but for me, it sure took that "time". So, for your boys' sake and your other loved ones......and most of all for your own self.....please choose to forgive and to grow and live life. It is so sad that she chooses to live this emotional "death" when she could have a good life with you and the boys. Like I said....at this point....it is a case of survival.

Sandi - this really touched me, and it wasn't just the "sweetie" part.

I must have read this part at least a dozen times. That is why, at the start of this post, I am choosing that TODAY I will begin to forgive myself. I still don't know how to work through it, but I am making that choice TODAY.

Thank you so much for sharing your story and your strength is a real inspiration for me.

I'm not giving up on you and I don't want you to give up on your future. Now, I am going to say this again and hope you will not have a backslide. I still believe if you TRULY drop the rope, that message will come through to her loud and clear and she will finally wake up to what she needs to do. However, I think she will have to be convinced that you are serious and "make a believer out of her" before she stops with all the drama.

I know this has been awfully long, but I tried to make myself understood. That is not to say YOU can't understand......I mean that I don't know how to express it very well.

Sandi - I think you are being very clear on this. I think part of this is that I don't want to believe it. Perhaps that had been part of the communication problem between my wife and I. But that is in the PAST.

And you are right, the first person I have to convince that I am prepared for a life without my wife is ME. I don't like it, nor is it what I want, but it is what I need. It is what my boys need. For us to be prepared to live a happy, healthy and good life, with or without my wife a part of it.

Ouch. This hurts.

[confusedinpa]

Well take this for example:

"What I wanted to see was a partnership- someone who valued me- respected me- and most importantly someone who wanted to meet my needs. Someone who listened to me and took the time to intimately know me. "

She wanted a partnership - could she want you more involved at home with the day to day stuff? More involved with children perhaps. See a load of laundry sitting there waiting for her - get it done before she thinks to do it.

How do you show someone you value them? What is her love language? For instance, acts of service. What can you do for her without pointing it out? A hot cup of coffee first thing in the morning, free time made free because you took the kids somewhere?

ARGH!! This is exactly something she complained about a couple of weeks before she moved out. I was always heavily involved in the kids and would always take them out for a few hours with the intention of giving her a break. Of course she took it as a "hurt" that I would take the kids to the park or Chucky Cheese, but we would go out only 2-3 times/year. We had divided up the house work where I took care of all the outside stuff (mowing, shoveling and other yard work), the dishes and vacuuming while she took care of everything else. Her complaint to that was that she was mad that she had to ask me to do that.

Then I find out, about 4 weeks after she dropped the Divorce filing/bomb on me, her primary love languages were Words of Affirmation, Touch and Quality time (almost all ranked equally). I was more focused on giving her things and doing things for her (Gifts and Service). I completely missed the boat. She used to complain about how I used to give her back massages and foot rubs in the beginning but when she would ask for them, I bought her a massaging thumper and foot bath massager instead. ACK!!!!

Listen, listen, listen. She told you what she wanted. The most important part of communication is listening. You can't be talking when you are listening.

By listening and taking notes, you are going to get to know her intimately. Ask her open ended questions, zip your lip, and let her talk. And keep your eyes on her, nod at things she says, and let her know any word she utters is the only thing you are focused on at that moment.

Listen, we all got to this place because we couldn't see the handwriting on the wall. Often the WA tried to tell us in their own way and we only took it as complaints.

Right now, when it matters most, if we listen, show respect, give them space they will tell us what they need. They will tell us what we have to do and do consistently. When you are that person your wife described she will have the doubts.

So, talk less and listen more.

I know you can.

I am trying to listen. I had never been a good listener and coupled with her not being a good communicator really came to a disastor. Perhaps if I was a better listener, her way of communication would have been fine. I don't know. Can't change the past nor second guess it. It is what it is right now.

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and insight.

[confusedinpa]

Maybe this is part of the process of forgiving myself or the process of believing that I am prepared to for a life without my wife, but I am really annoyed.

I keep running it through my head of how she is destroying everything and ruining what could have been for the 4 of us. I just keep thinking how incredibly selfish of it because she just doesn't "feel" it any more.

I had felt sorry for her and sorry for my boys because of all the hurt.

But as my DB coach said, feelings come and go. You can't make a decision to destroy a family based on a feeling.

She hadn't called/text during the day today. It does bug me a little bit as I still haven't fully detached nor drop the rope. That's what I'm working on.

But I'm still annoyed.

I do have the boys tonite so that is something to look forward to. When I picked up my 3 year old to take him to baseball yesterday, he was all excited to show how he helped bake a cake at school. My two boys and I each ate a piece and really enjoyed it. Particularly my 3 year old as he told us how he and his class made it. His job was to put in an egg and he talked about how it got all over his hands and arms.

I'm going to try and bake a cake with them while I have them (she picks them back up on Sun AM). I just have to see what she left in the kitchen to bake a cake in.

I'm really trying to stay focused on the positive of seeing my boys tonite. I'm trying to figure out how to forgive myself so I can let go of the guilt/hurt.

I will remember my goal of spending this time with the boys without letting this situation distract any of us from enjoying our time together.

What she is doing is crazy, in my mind. It may make perfect sense in her mind, but I don't think anyone else can see it that way.

I guess the best revenge is to live well. And the boys and I will....

[MrBond]

"revenge" is a pretty strong word. Getting a little angry huh?

Told you about the rollercoaster getting worse.

Just be prepared because once you have another positive interaction with her, you're going to fall right for it, then set yourself up to getting hurt again.

[confusedinpa]

"revenge" is a pretty strong word. Getting a little angry huh?

Told you about the rollercoaster getting worse.

Just be prepared because once you have another positive interaction with her, you're going to fall right for it, then set yourself up to getting hurt again.

I'm not sure if its anger or I'm becoming resentful. Could be the same thing.....

Last nite's interaction, while not positive, was not negative. It was frustrating though as she still doesn't get it.

I am hopeful that when we were talking about how the kids are really acting up/out when she has them, that it will knock some of the fog away to see how the kids are reacting/dealing because of this situation. Last nite she completely dismissed it was how they were acting when I was away on one of my trips.

One thing that I had forgotten to mention as part of that call, was that she said that when they get stressed/angry, they would ask to go back to daddy. She asked if they ever ask to go to her place when I have them. I told them that they did not.

I did talk to my WAW friend about this. She just laughed and asked, "So what are your really missing then? What do you want back? Just constant complaining and misery?" I told her that I wanted my wife and family back together. I did tell her that it wasn't like this before. I just don't know how it changed so abruptly.

I guess I do have to remember, from a WAW perspective, the tension, complaining and misery has been going on for some time. My WAW friend would say how she would make excuses to work late so she wouldn't have to go home to deal with it. My wife never did that nor did I (particularly since I thought everything was fine)

I really hope she thinks and sees some of the reality of what is happening to our family. I doubt if she will and even if she does, she will find a way to excuse it or put the guilt on me. If she tries that, I will be strengthening my wall so I will be ready this time around.

Very frustrating and in utter disbelief.....

[MrBond]

Well the thing is that the WAW's emotions are very mercurial. They change as often as the wind blows.

The thing is that your WAW friend has the same mindset as the majority of people out there. Just leave. Why put up with that crap, etc. But the ones who find themselves on these boards are STANDERS. We stand for our M no matter how painful things are, we are the rare ones who believe in our commitment and will do whatever it takes to keep true to that and ourselves.

It is hard and that's why MWD says in her books that it is going to take more patience than is humanly possible. But along the way I personally have learned more about my strengths and myself as a person than I ever would have if didn't happen.

There is something that I found on a website that I recite every morning to remind me of my commitment. If you're interested, you can find it here:

http://www.rejoiceministries.org/

It's a Standers Affirmation that helps me stay focused on myself and what I'm doing.

[confusedinpa]

It's a Standers Affirmation that helps me stay focused on myself and what I'm doing.

This is where I am so torn as to what's been offered recently. I know some have said there is no hope so for the health of myself and my kids, I need to be prepared for a life without my wife. So by preparing for a life without my wife, am I, by default giving up?

I am not giving up as I will work on our marriage as soon as my wife says she wants to as well. I am trying to "attract" her back, which is where I am at odds with Dark. How attractive is Dark? Mysterious perhaps? Annoying perhaps? Attractive? I've heard the James Bond analogy, but even he, while acting stand offish is flirting, charming, charismatic and friendly.

On the flip side, I'm trying to not be needy as that is not attractive either.

Perhaps this is the nuance the Wifey had talked about.

Be prepared to live my life well with my boys while making myself attractive to my wife.

This is where I need to drop the rope to earn my self confidence and self respect back. To detach to improve my own emotional health. Because isn't self confident, self respecting and emotionally healthy individual much more attractive than a needy, emotional wreck?

This is a fine line to balance.

Either way, I am off to pick up my boys to come home. I will remember my goal of not letting the situation be a distraction while we are together.

So confusing. So many questions.....

[MrBond]

"This is where I am so torn as to what's been offered recently. I know some have said there is no hope so for the health of myself and my kids, I need to be prepared for a life without my wife. So by preparing for a life without my wife, am I, by default giving up?"

You're missing the point. You build up your confidence because 1) it makes you much more attractive to your W and you find the strength to continue to fight for your M, and 2) IF things don't work out, you'll understand that you'll be fine.

I've been at this for over a year. I still believe in my M and still stand for my M. I do things like write goals, try different things to attract my W (whether it's giving her space, spending time with her, talking, etc.), and at the same time have a list of my own personal goals that I am working on to make me a better individual (working out, new projects, run a marathon). Yet at the same time, if I came home today and found out my W had packed everything and left, I would be fine and at peace because I know I did everything I could. No hard feelings. That's the level of detachment you'll get to.

Do I want my M? Of course! Will I survive without it? Yes!

"This is a fine line to balance."

It is and it's like what Wifey said about being nuance. It's a shift in the dynamic of your thinking.

[theroadback]

I think she feels loved by you right now. More so now than she has in the last few years.

I think she likes it, makes her feel comfortable and complete having that love.

This is what she is getting out of it. She knows you, she sees it in your eyes and in your actions.
before the bomb she saw indifference. She feels that if she goes back to you she will loose the love she feels from you right now.

She shook you up and she knows it. She is enjoying the feeling of power, revenge and the feeling of being loved.

What really shook you up? I don’t think is was the action of filing for divorce or wanting to move out so much as the death of the love she had for you, you felt it die and that hurt.

You need to take this away from her or things will not improve.
The thing is, she knows you very very well she reads your eyes she see's your actions. I don’t think she listens a whole lot to what you say.

I don’t know if you are a good actor but you can’t show the hurt/pain/ love in your eyes.

You may have to truly fall out of love with her.
When this is gone and she believes it is gone it will unfortunately hurt her. I believe she will then want it back. How she does this I don’t know, she may pursue you, she make try and make you jealous etc..

I agree with others that she is not the typical walk away, I believe that is why she does not have an om … she does not want to take it too far for fear of losing the feeling of being loved, loosing the power she has over you.

[confusedinpa]

I don’t know if you are a good actor but you can’t show the hurt/pain/ love in your eyes.

You may have to truly fall out of love with her.
When this is gone and she believes it is gone it will unfortunately hurt her. I believe she will then want it back. How she does this I don’t know, she may pursue you, she make try and make you jealous etc..

I agree with others that she is not the typical walk away, I believe that is why she does not have an om … she does not want to take it too far for fear of losing the feeling of being loved, loosing the power she has over you.

Theroadback,

That's a very unique perspective you are offering here. That's what I really like aobut this forum. People looking with fresh eyes with their thoughts.

Personally, I feel that if I did something like that, show her that I have fallen out of love for her would just reinforce what she has felt over the years and that I have really not changed.

I could be wrong though. My track record of being right has really been pretty bad relative to my situation.

Anyone else have any opinion on this strategy?