WAW - Very confused and devastated - pt 10

[MrBond]

No problem. I expect the same 2x4's when I mess up.

The only thing I would have avoided was this:
"I tried to listen and respond with "Oh, that can be just so frustrating" or "I can't believe that" or "You are right, that is ridiculous when they do that"."

You should have just said mmm-hmmm if you wanted to acknowledge her, but I don't think it's right to dismiss it the way you did. She's going to have to realize that she's hurting your boys badly. While you don't have to scold her for it, you don't have to invalidate their feelings. Especially when you said it's "ridiculous" when they act a certain way. It is not ridiculous. They are young kids.

I have a feeling that if you validate her actions of pushing the feelings of the kids to the side, then it shows her that she was right. The same as when she slapped your son. She can bitch and moan all she wants about herself, but she shouldn't be taking it out on your kids.

[confusedinpa]

No problem. I expect the same 2x4's when I mess up.

The only thing I would have avoided was this:
"I tried to listen and respond with "Oh, that can be just so frustrating" or "I can't believe that" or "You are right, that is ridiculous when they do that"."

You should have just said mmm-hmmm if you wanted to acknowledge her, but I don't think it's right to dismiss it the way you did. She's going to have to realize that she's hurting your boys badly. While you don't have to scold her for it, you don't have to invalidate their feelings. Especially when you said it's "ridiculous" when they act a certain way. It is not ridiculous. They are young kids.

Stuck,

I was trying to work on reducing the length of some of my posts, but I guess I should have put a little more details into what I was responding to with my comments.

She was getting frustrated about how when the boys go to bed, they keep finding excuses to get back out out bed - i.e. I need a drink or I think I heard a noise or My bear fell on the floor, etc. I definitely agree it is frustrating when they do that - usually for about 3-5 times before they finally go to bed, about 30 minutes after they are put to bed. They only do it 1-2 times to me, but even that gets frustrating to me.

When she was talking about something that they would ask for something in particular for breakfast and then after she made it, they weren't hungary, I said "I can't believe that" .

The latest thing is how they are both fighting over the TV in the morning and at nite. They would spend 10-15 minutes fighting about it and then if turns out it was suppose to be the 3 year old's turn to pick, he usually picks what the 7 year old was trying to watch to begin with. That is pretty ridiculous, in a funny sense.

So she wasn't saying things that discounted/invalidated their feelings. She was just complaining about things that she was getting frustrated that they did. Personally, I think it's funny because they don't do anything like that with me.

Sorry for the confusion.

And thanks again for the 2x4

[MrBond]

Ah. Got it.

[confusedinpa]

Argh!!! This is really killing me. She called me again tonite to complain more of how the kids are behaving. I let her go on and responded with my supportive/empathetic comments.

Then she asked if they behaved this way when they were with me. I told them that they behave the same as they did before she moved out so I would say she would be the best judge of that.

She said that she thinks it's worse when they are with her than the way they were before she left. She said that she was getting really frustrated about that.

I told her that it's a really tough situation and they are dealing with a lot of things now as well.

She then said that she doesn't see how that's it as she would expect that they would be that way all the time (ARGH!!! - she still can't see that they are that way because they see she is the one who left so she may be the one to blame).

She excused it then by saying how even before she left, and I was away on one of my trips, they would act up like this, but in just smaller doses. She said when it happened back then, she would always ask them if they would do this if daddy was home. She said they would always say no.

I told her that I'm not in any position to pyschoanalyze them, but I must imagine that they are going through a lot of emotions now, not just the situation, but just by growing up, so this is a tough time already without all the issues that they have to deal with because of our situation.

I started getting tired of hearing it so I just said as kindly and gently as I can, that it was getting late and she sounded tired so have a good nite. She said you too and she would talk to me later.

I still can't believe she doesn't see how our situation is affecting the kids and can't acknowledge she has any ownership in it. I've seen my past ownership to bringing us to this point. I'm still working on forgiving myself for that. But all the hurt that the kids experience since she moved out is on her.

This is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous.

I'm trying to be a friend, but how can I be friends with someone so BLIND!!! ARGH!!!!

[MrBond]

Yeah they all say that. When I asked my W if she was going to tell our Ds about her A when they get older, she was quite adamant that she would tell them and that they would understand. And that they would understand that if you're unhappy, be with someone who makes you happy. What kind of f'd up logic is that?

Sometimes you wonder if they all wander into the stupid fog and enjoy the confusion.

[Kenn]

Hey Confused,

just so you don't feel like the Lone Ranger.... my wife actually blames me for it. My daughter(she is eight)laid into her one night. My daughter I guess stood up and told her she was a bad mom, she never plays games with her, and dad does this and dad does that.... so my ex wife called me up and started to blame me for turning my daughter against her. You would have to read my posts but one short item was i got into it with wife about taking trips with OM and never taking daughter on trips. she accused me of telling daughter about trips, and this was after she brought a t-shirt back for my daughter from New orleans..... i fought the urge to call her an idiot.

As I have heard somewhere else ... "they know not what they do"


I am trying to take the hi road. My daughter needs a mom and a a dad if she is to avoid this crap in the future. so as much as possible i give her mom a chance to be the role model. I will avoid telling my daughter anyhting negative about her mom even though i think she is dealing with some real issues right now LOL!

And Stuck... you are right... that is crap...crazy crap.. i fought with my wife one night and told her, "look I will not ever share this with daughter, but you have to know that I will not let my daughter grow up thinking relationships are disposable. If she is going to marry then she needs to know that she has to put the work into that marriage to make it work"

it got real quite on the phone after that.

My biggest fear now is that my daughter grows up thinking it is okay to be selfish..

so yeah.. they have an issue... I want this and if anyone disagrees then they are an idiot, because it is all about me"

Only problem is that 400 pound gorillia is chasing you and me and stuck and a whole lot of other people on this site ...argh!!!!

[sandi2]

Hi confussed......we are going to get you "unconfused" yet!

Okay, let me see where to start.......

I will need to maintain a co-parenting relationship with her. Right now

,

I see.....thanks for clearing that up.

I get the sense that she wants/expects to be friends post-Divorce. I am trying to decide if I can be friends with someone who hurts their family by getting Divorced.

You are correct that she thinks or expects a friendship post-divorce. That is her "fantasy" doing her thinking for her. She has this unrealistic idea of how everything will be for the better and what she needs is a good dose of reality. As for you deciding about being friends, just let me say that most couples have to have a cooling off period b/c everything is too fresh and raw. Emotions are not stable and it hurts too much for the LBS. The reason it wouldn't be as bad for her is simply due to her fantasy. When she is determine to see this dream come true......she won't accept what is reality.

I know this is the best move for the boys and I. I can not keep us living in the past nor sitting still. I had, prior to this bomb, always been of the mindset that if you aren't constantly raising the bar, you are burying. I need to dig the bar out of the ground and get it moving

That statement, my friend, is about the most healthy and positive thing I've heard you say! Yes, I agree. Now, go do it and stop this brow-beating and trying to kill yourself with the emotional daily beatings. You understand what you did in the breakdown of the MR. You canot go back in time and change history. You can only try for a better tomorrow and do the best you can today. You have said you were sorry about a hundred times or more, so enough of that. You need to stop listening to her nightly "woe is me" pity-party routine and stay off the phone with her. She is mentally slaying you each time you politely stay on the phone and listen. Even if you just say things to let her know you are listening.....it is encouraging her to continue.....don't you get that? What you need to do is STOP HER continuance. This is not healthy for her or you and it certainly is not getting either of you forward one inch from where you were......in fact, it is constantly pulling you backward. I heard it once said that a person never stands still in their personal growth. They are either moving forward or backward.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
If all you have to do is sign your signature, then okay. But no fighting anymore. No hanging on for dear life and no begging and pointing out the good things about M, etc. Let her go.

Are you implying that I should sign the divorce papers now? If I don't sign, it will take another 18 months before a divorce decree is issued to dissolve the marriage. I'm going to really have to think about that one....

Oh, no-no, I must have misunderstood what you were saying in your post. I thought she was pushing you to sign and that it would immediately be filed and the D in order. I believe that if you feel you can move forward with your life and be free of her nagging, co-dependent ways.....then it's fine to stay legally M. However, at this point I am thinking of the frame of mind that you are in.....the children are in.....and she is in. I have never encouraged a D for this reason before and I'm not saying that I'm encouraging one now. I am saying that you will have to be the one to determine how much you can take and how much you can "control" b/c if you continue to allow her to hold the reigns and use her ways in keeping you upset all the time......what kind of life is that? I know, I know....all the sayings that people have about the wedding vows, etc. I get that. Heck.....I've been married for over 4 decades.....I am that! I just don't want you to get the wrong idea like you did before. I am all for M and the family, okay? But, I also think I see your wife in much need of a therapist and she will drag you and your children down with her if you aren't careful. There comes a time that you must think of survival for you and the boys.

Just as a note, she hadn't called all emotionally the last 2 nites.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see that as being normal progress. The two of you are separated and she wants a divorce!! Why would she be calling you all the time going over the same crap day in and day out....over and over again and again.......if she was normal?? If she wants to be away from you so badly....then why the heck doesn't she leave you alone? I'll tell you why....b/c she doesn't know how and she is really messed up. I doubt that she could live a week without calling you and doing the same number on you.....yet again!

I would let her go for a minute or two and just say things like "That's too bad" or "You've got to be kidding me" or other shallow things just to acknowledge as she talks about her day. And if she asked about my day, I wouldn't offer much other than it was good, or busy and that would be it. Then I would find a way to get off the phone.

This is not the way to get off the phone. Next time (and hopefully to get the message across to her).....when she starts with the S.O.S., just stop her in mid-sentence and say, "Wife, you know what? I don't want to hear this anymore and I really need to go, so I'll be saying good-bye now". Then hang up the phone. It is a simple action.....you push the button and it disconnects you..... If you don't want to tell her that you don't wish to hear that stuff anymore, then say the last part about how you need to go. If she has any brains, she will get the point. Don't know that will stop her from trying the next time, but if you keep cutting her off....and saying good-bye (without waiting for her to say another word....and hang up) she probably will finally stop that nonsense. The key here is to NOT WAIT FOR HER TO SAY ONE OTHER WORD AND HANG UP THE PHONE. Okay?

For the last two nites, when she was on the phone, I would try to be very cheerful and ask how her day was going or if she mentioned something about the up coming week, I would follow up and ask how it went. This would happen before the boys got on the phone as well as after. Not sure if that's confusing her or it's settling her in or what. I'm still trying to gauge if this is a good approach.

Oh, my. I am sorry if your head is sore from my 2x4's but this is not what you need to do. I may stand alone on this issue....from the other posters you've had. I haven't read all of the posts, so I don't know, but I can promise you that I do not stand alone on this principle (where the vets on the board are concerned)...no offense to anybody, BTW. And, I certainly don't stand alone on this principle where the WAW's are concerned! If you want to know what you are doing wrong, just ask the WAW's. Okay, so back to what I started to say....... ........So, were you trying to "work her"? I mean, were you trying to "settle her down"? Were you afraid that she would get off on another "let's have a blame game" and you were trying to put the brakes on before it started? I just think that is sad. How long have you had to live in that kind of environment? It isn't confusing her, sweetie, it just plain isn't working.

I had thought about talking about how my therapy is going or just mention that I had gone that day. Sort of trying to keep the thought in front of her. I'm debating how to approach this.

NO-NO-NO! Please don't do that. It is almost the last thing you would want to do. It will lead to a R talk....and then an "blame-game" every time, that you can rest assured.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Then you may have to make a believer out of her. I really hope I am wrong about my gut feeling about her.

What do you mean by making her a believer? That I'm preparing for life without her or that I've really changed?

That you are prepared (not preparing) to live life without her. But first, you must convince yourself before she will believe it.

So what is your gut feeling about her?

I have already told you in past posts, but your posts clearly pointed out that you did not agree and, in fact, took up for her. That is when I said that you were seeing her through eyes of love.......or else you have been in denial for a long time.

I had thought it was that her mind is made up and she's not allowing herself to let go of her hurt or build any trust to give us a chance. I just want to make sure I got your impression right.... as tough as it may be.....

Well, I do believe she will not give the M a chance at this time. I do think she has convinced herself that the world is out to hurt her and she's to trust nobody. However, that was not my "gut feeling" about her. Please go back an re-read my posts so I don't repeat myself here again. I am already making this one much too long.

What is the difference in the picture of her that I painted?

Again, I don't want to repeat myself in answering that question, so please go back and re-read what I previously sent. I will add that I think she has convinced you, after all these years, that she is a poor victim who has been hurt and just cannot take a chance on allowing you to do that again. Therefore, she chunks any hope of giving her boys a home with both parents there for them and a loving M for the two of you. That is what I call being very self-centered. A person who constantly sees themselves in the light that she does--can only think about one person.....themselves. I should know! I have been there. I was a woman like that! Please listen to me. She has you so emotionlly blackmailed (if that is the term I should use) and you believe what she says. I agree, she was hurt by her dad. So.....there have been a lot of people hurt by other people in their lives. So have you! Look at her doing the hurt to you. What if you were to throw that back in her face and tell her that she has hurt you so badly that you can't trust her to give it another chance? You know what? SHE WOULD NOT HEAR YOU. She cannot hear or see anyone but herself. She is sick. That is what I'm trying to say to you. You can't help her and you can't deal with her like she is b/c she is sick. I don't mean the woman is insane and needs to be put in an institution, but I mean she needs help and should have been receiving help many years before now. You said yourself that she will not agree to get help without the family pushing her. That should tell you something. She doesn't see it. Everybody else is wrong and she is right....in her eyes. You said it yourself.....

Pathetically, I feel sorry for her, for the pain that she's felt as she watched her dreams of happily ever after get crushed over the years. I know how painful it is as that's what I've been feelings since she hit me with the bomb. I also feel sorry for her that the hurt is so great, that she feels it is greater than the possibility of trying to achieve it, at least with me. I also see her as a broken woman because of all that pain.

Yes, of course you feel that way about her. But, my gosh......she needs to find a way to coop if she plans to live in this old world very long. EVERYONE GETS HURT. I don't know a living soul that has never been hurt. I do know, however, some really great human beings that have been hurt beyond anything you've told me about her pain......and they found a way to "raise the bar" (as you said) and to make the most of their life in spite of what had been cast at them. A lot of unfairness happens to people, but if we grow up to be adults, like we are suppose to, then we realize that it doesn't HAVE to be the end if we CHOOSE differently. She, however, has not chosen any other way. I think she feeds off of the stuff that happen to her and she doesn't choose to let go b/c SHE DOESN'T WANT TO LET GO. A person has to want to get better and be happy. It is as if she just "dares" anybody to TRY and MAKE her happy. Well, it doesn't work that way, b/c nobody can MAKE another person happy. We are the only ones that have the power to make ourselves happy.

This is my challenge - forgiving myself. How do I expect anyone to ever forgive me for this if I can't forgive myself.

Oh sweetie (and I call my "favorites" sweetie....no offense intended)....if only you knew what I put myself through after I came out of the fog. I wanted to die. I think I would have felt much better if I had died. To live with what I had done was much, much harder. Forgiveness is a choice. We choose to forgive others. The second verse to that is that the same principle applies when forgiving ourselves. It is a choice. Easy? No way. Hardest thing I ever did. I did not deserve anybody's forgiveness....let alone my own. But in order to be better for my loved ones and to move forward in life and leave this horrible stuff in the past......I had to do it. At first, it was every day. I would face myself and all the "uglies" in me and tell myself that I chose to forgive myself. It isn't a "feeling"....it is a act of will. In time, a sense of peace finally comes, but for me, it sure took that "time". So, for your boys' sake and your other loved ones......and most of all for your own self.....please choose to forgive and to grow and live life. It is so sad that she chooses to live this emotional "death" when she could have a good life with you and the boys. Like I said....at this point....it is a case of survival.

It wasn't always like this nor is this what I want as a new marriage.

I know. My heart goes out for you and the boys.

The question that comes up in my mind is are we both strong enough to do the work.

You would be--if she would have a different attitude about life in general....but especially about her past. Right now, I don't see her choosing to make that decision b/c she doesn't want it as long as you are there for her to "hang on a cross" for her hurts.

I'm think I am and am trying to strengthen myself as I work on myself.

Then you will grow and be a better person for the future, and hopefully in time, things will make a turn for the better. I think much has to happen for/to her first.

I think she would be if could find it by letting go of the hurt and be willing to trust. I just don't see that happening any time soon, if ever...

Exactly!

I know you can't see my face and can't hear my voice and I'm sure my post has come across as one that is heartless and maybe even brutal......but I honestly hope and pray that your future (and your W's) will be all the best life can give. In all reality, we both know that life doesn't usually give out many "dreams".....right? You are an adult. You have learned. Unfortunately, your W is thinking and acting either like an immature person or a very selfish person. Niether is good for you and your children now. I do hope that somebody can reach her......(I don't think that will be you, though)......and convince her to get therapy.

I'm not giving up on you and I don't want you to give up on your future. Now, I am going to say this again and hope you will not have a backslide. I still believe if you TRULY drop the rope, that message will come through to her loud and clear and she will finally wake up to what she needs to do. However, I think she will have to be convinced that you are serious and "make a believer out of her" before she stops with all the drama.

I know this has been awfully long, but I tried to make myself understood. That is not to say YOU can't understand......I mean that I don't know how to express it very well.

So, I'll close for now and wish you a good night. Do take care of yourself. Keep posting and don't give up.

Sandi

[confusedinpa]

Sometimes you wonder if they all wander into the stupid fog and enjoy the confusion.

Hahahaha! That was a good one!

I would love to hear what Sandi or Kittyfish or other WAWs respond to that one!

[sandi2]

Oppps, just missed me......go back one step.

[The Wifey]

Well take this for example:

"What I wanted to see was a partnership- someone who valued me- respected me- and most importantly someone who wanted to meet my needs. Someone who listened to me and took the time to intimately know me. "

She wanted a partnership - could she want you more involved at home with the day to day stuff? More involved with children perhaps. See a load of laundry sitting there waiting for her - get it done before she thinks to do it.

How do you show someone you value them? What is her love language? For instance, acts of service. What can you do for her without pointing it out? A hot cup of coffee first thing in the morning, free time made free because you took the kids somewhere?

Respect. Frankly I think you've been doing great on that. Another way to show respect is to give her space. Quietly move to another room, give her breathing room, take the kids and tell her to go have an afternoon to herself.

Listen, listen, listen. She told you what she wanted. The most important part of communication is listening. You can't be talking when you are listening.

By listening and taking notes, you are going to get to know her intimately. Ask her open ended questions, zip your lip, and let her talk. And keep your eyes on her, nod at things she says, and let her know any word she utters is the only thing you are focused on at that moment.

Listen, we all got to this place because we couldn't see the handwriting on the wall. Often the WA tried to tell us in their own way and we only took it as complaints.

Right now, when it matters most, if we listen, show respect, give them space they will tell us what they need. They will tell us what we have to do and do consistently. When you are that person your wife described she will have the doubts.

So, talk less and listen more.

I know you can.