WAW - Very confused and devastated - pt 10

[Kittyfish]

"What I wanted to see was a partnership- someone who valued me- respected me- and most importantly someone who wanted to meet my needs. Someone who listened to me and took the time to intimately know me. "

CIPA, If you can get this you will be a happy man. I promise. Not one time does it mention what she will do in return. It's all about her. To a man that sounds kinda of selfish doesn't it? It's actually selfish (fearful) on our part not to treat and cherish our wives this way.
Reread what KittyFish wrote. Hang in there brother, you can handle it.

Yeah, it does sound kind of selfish and I was being selfish. According to my H- he was perfectly happy. He felt I was meeting his needs and I didn't need to improve on anything.

After putting everyone else- and I mean everyone else above myself for so long this is what happened.

[confusedinpa]

You will need that faith and commitment because if you think this part of the process is bad, you ain't seen nothing yet. Your feelings will go through so many more ups and downs, you will need your faith to serve as an anchor through all of it.

Stuck

Ack! You mean it gets harder from here?!?!?!

I'm really torn on how much hope that I hold onto. Sandi's message really painted a bleek picture for me so I was trying to prepare for that. Particularly as I had gotten into this doldrum after the phone call I had with my wife a couple of weeks ago that gave me hope. She had said that she was sad and knew she needed to go to therapy. Of course, now that she still hadn't and has since told me that she still doesn't want to be my wife because she doesn't trust me and is still hurting, it sent me spiraling down. I've been trying to pick myself up the last 2 days.

I do have faith that I'm working as hard as I can and want to succeed at saving the marriage. I don't have a lot of confidence that it will happen, but am sure that I am becoming a better person along the way (provided I don't have an emotional breakdown).

I think I see your point that being committed to my changes and the process of what I'm doing will lead to two possible outcomes (save the marriage and/or be a better person). I do have faith that the changes I'm making are the right thing to do and with either outcome I will be better off.

Am I getting that right?

[AlexEN]

What if the only thing WAS wants from LBS is the one thing that's hardest to give -- the D?

Alex, If you truly believe that is the only thing your wife wants from you then why not give it to her? She doesn't want anything else from you? That sounds kind of absolute to me. If it's true what will you gain from hanging on to someone who truly does not return any goodness to you? You can still love someone without anything in return but to expect something back would be bad for your own self-care.
How would you respond to this question if it was asked to you?

Coach,

I need to think about this more... I accept that she doesn't love me any longer... I guess what I don't accept is that she is her "true self" now and the hurt this D will likely cause 3 precious and innocent children who don't deserve BOTH of us not giving it our all before giving up...

-AlexEN

[Kittyfish]

CIPA-

I just read this last thread- I didn't get to read the complete history because I don't have that kind of time right now.

Your post broke my heart because I can feel the kind of pain that your WAW is in.

Whether or not she's a perpetual victim or not like Sandi says I cannot say. I can only say I felt exactly the same way that she did.

I didn't read what her father or sister did but I can tell you I've been resentful and unforgiving in the past myself.

Was your wife an abuse survivor in any way? Mental, emotional etc?

I was abused in every way possible growing up. My mother was a narcassist so I was taught at an early age that everything was always about her. I learned to caretake to her and to think my needs were unimportant.

What I didn't see- until my pastor pointed it out to me- was that I had married a man the same way- selfish. He wasn't a narcassist but extremely selfish.

What I can say is that it took your marriage and wife a long time to get this way. To believe you would never change. Just changing for a short period of time is not going to prove it to her- it will take longer than that.

As I stated earlier I'm not completely familiar with DB. What I can say is that GAL or the 180 wouldn't have worked for me but yet neither would begging or pleading. In the end my ex did all kinds of things to try to "wake me up"- filing papers first and dragging me through the muck in the process- calling all my friends to tell them I was a whore etc.

I was too stubborn and set in my ways to see what I was doing. I wanted away from the pain- and fast.

The other posters are right- your wife needs help and you cannot make her get it.

I do think she wants to keep you around to meet her emotional needs- she doesn't want to meet yours- but she wants to keep you on the backburner to meet her needs in some way- which is why she is continuing to call you etc.

I didn't try to be friends with my ex because I felt it wouldn't be fair to him to try to "keep him on the string" so to speak because I had no intention of going back. I can tell you though that I did miss him because in ways he was my best friend- and I can see that she might feel that way and that it might be hard for her to let that go.

It's like she's jerking your chain to see you jump- and rush to meet her emotional needs- which is what she wants from you anyway. It's a game to her to push you and nudge you to see if you respond. Then she gets her fix.

Going dark wouldn't have worked with me either- because that would have played in to "He doesn't really love me".

What would have worked for me was apologizing sincerely for what he had done and ask for my forgiveness. What would have worked is him treating me with kindness other than anger and in my sitch I would have loved to have heard "It doesn't matter what you've done- come home and work on our marriage- I forgive you"

Then again, I had an affair so that part may not apply to you.

Is there any sign of infidelity? Because in what I've seen before women do not usually move out until they've got someone else lined up???

[aliveandkicking]

Wow. This is so enlightening. Kittyfish, thank you. I am LBS but was close to being WAS...married to a narcissist (IMO).

What would have worked for me was apologizing sincerely for what he had done and ask for my forgiveness. What would have worked is him treating me with kindness other than anger and in my sitch I would have loved to have heard "It doesn't matter what you've done- come home and work on our marriage- I forgive you"

You really think that would have worked? Or more like maybe...

Is there any sign of infidelity? Because in what I've seen before women do not usually move out until they've got someone else lined up???

I have women friends who left without having someone else lined up. Or they kicked H out. I think women get fed up. I'm sure each sitch is different.

[confusedinpa]

"What I wanted to see was a partnership- someone who valued me- respected me- and most importantly someone who wanted to meet my needs. Someone who listened to me and took the time to intimately know me. "

CIPA, If you can get this you will be a happy man. I promise. Not one time does it mention what she will do in return. It's all about her. To a man that sounds kinda of selfish doesn't it? It's actually selfish (fearful) on our part not to treat and cherish our wives this way.
Reread what KittyFish wrote. Hang in there brother, you can handle it.

Coach

I agree 100% with you that understanding these sentences are very important.

I read these very same issues in many of the threads about our WAW's. I also heard about it in my small group that I joined in my church. The women there talked about how it bothered them that their husbands didn't treat them that way. However, they all said that they didn't say anything and let it build into resentment because the were afraid or didn't know how. I practically jumped out of my seat and had started saying WTF but caught myself as I was in church, but said that is the very thing that my wife said. None of them could say what they were afraid of or what was it that they didn't know in order to say it.

I guess the part that we, men and women, need to also come to agreement to is - what does some of the key words mean.

For example, in a partnership, what does that look like for each person? There are some partnerships where one person carries the ball as long as both enjoy the prize. Or there are some partnerships where you carry the ball the first 90% and I will drive it home due to different capabilities/skills. Or the traditional 50/50 partnerships.

So in other words, there needs to be some dialog/communication to set what the expectations are from both people to create the partnership. Or perhaps that is the part of what KittyFish wrote of taking the time to listen and to intimately know the other.

Or am I just being a DAM and I should just know (like my wife had expected).

[Kittyfish]

There has to be dialog about it. No, you shouldn't have to be a mind reader- it's up to each person in a relationship to communicate what they are not getting out of it. You cannot take responsibility for her not telling you what she wanted.

In my case I did. He knew very well I didn't want to shoulder all the responsibility. Heck, I even talked to his parents separately and asked them to talk to him way before the A ever happened.

We were married 13 years. I would expect that after that time he would know me and care how I felt. Which he obviously really didn't. It's sad, because it really would have taken so little to please me........

[aliveandkicking]

It's sad, because it really would have taken so little to please me........

Wow. Sorry to jump in again but I spoke those very words to H. Truth is, it wasn't worth it to him. Some people actually think it is JUST about them and their happiness and yes you should be happy too (AKA "hey, what's your problem?")...

For some reason it is always gratifying to see sitches that we can relate to. For me, it helps me take some of the blame off of myself and know that if it was worth it to H, he would have done it and if it was worth it now, he would at least try. It just isn't worth it.

[confusedinpa]

Kittyfish,

Thanks for dropping by in my thread to offer your insight. It breaks my heart everytime I recount how awful I was in not giving my wife myself and my heart as I was so focused on giving her things. When she would complain, I would trivialize it in my mind that she had every THING that she needs, why is she asking for this other stuff. It wasn't important in my mind (the quality time, the emotional bonding/connecting, etc). I didn't take have the time to see how important it was to her because I was so busy taking care of the THINGS and working so I can provide the THINGS. So along the way, I completely forgot about the person I was providing the THINGS for. Very sad as I look back at and want nothing more than another chance. I have asked/begged/pleaded for it in the beginning. Then I started DB'ing because, as many people here point out, begging/pleading doesn't work.

I didn't read what her father or sister did but I can tell you I've been resentful and unforgiving in the past myself.

Was your wife an abuse survivor in any way? Mental, emotional etc?

I was abused in every way possible growing up. My mother was a narcassist so I was taught at an early age that everything was always about her. I learned to caretake to her and to think my needs were unimportant.

I'm so sorry to hear about your abusive past, growing up and in marriage. That must have been horrible to live through and deal with.

My wife's hurt from her dad was that he cheated her her mom when he was 7. Her mom took her back and he cheated again. This happened 3 times in less than a year until he finally left for good.

My wife's hurt from her sister was how she always put her down and made her feel less important. The big hurt that my wife told me about was how her sister invited her to go skiing with her and her friends. When they got to the ski resort, they went off by and left her by herself (ignored her). This happened sophmore year in HS and she hasn't trusted her sister since.

I do think she wants to keep you around to meet her emotional needs- she doesn't want to meet yours- but she wants to keep you on the backburner to meet her needs in some way- which is why she is continuing to call you etc.

My therapist (who was our marriage counselor) also said this to me, as well as others on this board. There seems to be a general consensus that if she finds someone else, or someone else starts paying attention to her, she will stop and I will be left out in the cold (again).

Going dark wouldn't have worked with me either- because that would have played in to "He doesn't really love me".

What would have worked for me was apologizing sincerely for what he had done and ask for my forgiveness. What would have worked is him treating me with kindness other than anger and in my sitch I would have loved to have heard "It doesn't matter what you've done- come home and work on our marriage- I forgive you"

Then again, I had an affair so that part may not apply to you.

Is there any sign of infidelity? Because in what I've seen before women do not usually move out until they've got someone else lined up???

I'm fairly certain there isn't anyone else, but can not be 100% certain. I did ask her when she hit me with the bomb as I told her that she had made so many changes (i.e. lost weight, changed hair color/style, dressed differently, sex toys/lingere, etc) 2 years before the bomb I was wondering why. She got really mad and told me that if I wanted to know who she was making the changes for I should look in the mirror. She said she had been trying to get my attention. It made me cry - both for how stupid/blind I was and how hurt it must have made her feel.

I had appologized numerous times and asked for forgivness to the point where she even said I need to stop appologizing. She had even said that she forgave me, but can't forget so that she can't see feeling for me like a wife should feel for a husband.

I believe that she ultimately moved out because she couldn't contine to have the person who hurt her so badly right in front of her all the time. She said she needed time and space to heal. Unfortunately, she's not getting any help to do that and I don't think she has the skill/strength to do it herself.

So I'm in this horrible situation and my 2 boys are bouncing back and forth from our two places. I'm working on me to grow as a person so I will not make the same mistakes. I had tried Dark/Dim but saw that, as you pointed out, it seemed to just reinforce that she felt that I didn't love her. So know I'm going to try and be her friend. I don't want to be her friend as I love her and want he to be my wife. She doesn't want that. I had been struggling with do I have the strenght and self confidence to love her enough so I can be a friend.

Because as a friend, they would want what you had posted as well: "What I wanted to see was a partnership- someone who valued me- respected me- and most importantly someone who wanted to meet my needs. Someone who listened to me and took the time to intimately know me. " - Bet you didn't think how powerful these sentences would be when you posted them. They are exactly the 2x4's many of us need.

Thanks again for your support and insight.

[confusedinpa]

There has to be dialog about it. No, you shouldn't have to be a mind reader- it's up to each person in a relationship to communicate what they are not getting out of it. You cannot take responsibility for her not telling you what she wanted.

In my case I did. He knew very well I didn't want to shoulder all the responsibility. Heck, I even talked to his parents separately and asked them to talk to him way before the A ever happened.

We were married 13 years. I would expect that after that time he would know me and care how I felt. Which he obviously really didn't. It's sad, because it really would have taken so little to please me........

That was actually part of our problem. My wife couldn't tell me in a way so I would get it. I had almost fallen over when she told me that she had actually made up her mind in Sept to file for divorce and had tried to tell me 3 times between Sept and Dec. She said that each time, she saw that I didn't understand what she was getting at. I told her that she certainly figured out how to tell me in Jan when she said she filed!

I guess that's another reason that I'm beating myself up. I know in reality, it would have taken very little to please my wife, if I would have known/understood. I do understand know and am putting in so much to do so, but now she doesn't care so I'm afraid no amount of effort will make a different.

But, as Stuck had pointed out, I'm making these changes to save my marriage, but I will still succeed, even if my marriage isn't saved, as I will be a much better person for this effort.

Crazy part of it is that my wife says that she sees how much I've changed and is proud of me and recognizes how I'm much better as a person now than even when we first met. It's just that she's too hurt and can't trust me to be vulnerable with me again.

ARGH!!!!