WAW - Very confused and devastated - pt 10

[confusedinpa]

So, what does fighting for my wife mean?

Good questions. What does "Fighting" mean?

Lots of things:

- Deciding no matter what that you are going to fight for your marriage

- Ignoring the words and focusing on his/her actions

- Ignoring family/friends telling you to give up. It's over!

- Putting your kids welfare first no matter what. "Fighting" for their STABILITY and SAFETY.

- "Fighting" your own PRIDE. Not letting resentment or hurt get in the way of your main GOAL of getting your WAS back.

- Not being afraid to EXPOSE the affair. She got mad when I first spoke with my family and her sister about it so I backed off. Should have got evidence and gone to her Insurance agency Director and tell him what this SOB of a mentor was up to. Convinced myself that it didnt matter anyway. That if she didnt want to be with me then it would be some OM. Not true. Should have EXPOSED. Although, because I was NICE and DBing she didnt fight for support and we both have Joint Physical Custody which is better for our D3.5.

Looking back at my M. Did I fight? Yes. Did I fight as hard as I could? I'm not sure. At some point I think I let my pride get the best of me.
Fine she is not going to admit that she is having an affair. Forget it!
Fine she is not going to take any responsibility for our marriage being broken. Fine forget it!
Fine. She doesnt want to be with me. Fine forget it!

I can look back and know that I fought for my M. I tried being nice for the first year and DB my heart out, but when she continued the A w OM and didnt want to take on any of the responsibilities that we both had acquired (bought 6 rental properties. Signed 7 30 yr mortgages. She didnt want to deal with them anymore. Wanted me to take on all the responsibility. She wanted to focus on her new insurance business that she had started and was being mentored by her OM. Who, ofcourse, when questioned, was just a friend.) So yeah, eventually, I gave in and stopped taking on everything in order to save the M. I stopped ENABLING. stopped her CAKE-EATING. She just got meaner. Was used to me being a DOORMAT - Duh!!

Anyway, I digress. This is what I mean "FIGHTING FOR YOUR M".

PMA

PMA_Baby!

Thanks for the quick response. I'm sorry to hear about your situation. I am glad that you have continued to stay on to help others.

So I guess in my case, what is fighting for my wife?

Seems like the first few bullets is stepping up to not give up. I know I've sounded like I was wallowing/waffling on continue to try. I know in my heart, that if I do give up and stop trying, I will never be able to look my kids in the eyes knowing that I did not do everything I could to bring our family back together. I don't know how she does it knowing that she gave up, but I imagine her coping skills is making her shift the blame entirely on me. That she did everything that she could and that I didn't step up.

So now that she sees that I've stepped up and working on it, I'm taking that excuse away. Maybe that's why she keeps trying to guilt/blame me. Who knows why she keeps calling. I know I can't waste my energy trying to find out.

I do have to figure out how I respond/react when she does.

I guess this is where fighting for my own pride/boundaries comes in and perhaps even fighting my fear of exposing her lack of letting go of the hurt and/or forgiveness. In the back of my mind though, I think she knows that she's not letting go or doesn't know how (at least that's what she said in the phone call 2.5 weeks ago that started me in this backslide). Again, she just not doing anything about trying to let go of the hurt.

So if she's not going to let go of the hurt, just as she has done before with her dad and her sister, then what??!?!

Do I continue the fight to show her that I have really changed? I know the best way to do that is exactly that, just do it. Don't talk to her about it. Do it. Live it.

Unfortunately, the changes I've been trying to make is diametrically opposed to the DB/DR Dark/Dim (sorry Sandi) approach. Of course, I had shown her all those changes and she still moved out. I thought it was because it was too much for her to deal with so she needed her time/space to sort it out. As well as possibly escape it when she feels it was too much. I don't know, but this has been my connundrum since she moved out. Do I continue with my 180 and show her that I have changed and am attentive and loving or do I go Dark (as suggested by DB/DR, my coach as well as my therapist)?

I had tried Dark and the responses that I had gotten was that I was mean/cold. I tried to adjust my approach of being warm and attentive when we are together as a family (which we have had a lot of over the last 2 weeks - 5 days) but still Dark (just business) when she calls/emails/text about tactical matters. When she calls all upset/emotional, I made myself emotionally there for her. Now it seems I have done that at the expense of my own hurt (allowing for hope). I guess I wasn't giving (emotional support) without expecting anything in return (hope). I guess this is where the detachment and dropping the rope comes in.

So in my fight for my wife, does that include being there as a friend for her? Even as she is hurting me and our boys. Do I have the strength, love and compassion to do that? Without expecting that she will come back to me as my wife? Is that the next battle front to this fight in my situation? Does that make any sense?

[MrBond]

I don't doubt that she was hurt in the past, but there comes a point where if you want to grow and move on as an ADULT, then you learn how to forgive. Period.

Not only is she not dealing with her hurt herself, she calls you to remind you how much you hurt her. That's not dealing with it. That's just projecting her undealt feelings onto you.

That stuff about you growing emotionally distant over time is what everyone goes through. It's called marriage. It happens to even the best couples.

Don't continue to beat yourself over it. You're still hanging onto the fact that she doesn't believe in YOUR changes because she keeps telling you that. It shouldn't matter what she thinks. You know they're real, that's all that matters. When she keeps hitting you with that fact, just shrug your shoulders and say "I know they're real" and end it.

She comes up with new excuses/reasons why she hasn't gone to therapy or C. It seems like she prefers to blame everything on you and not take any responsibility. Just remember, it takes two. She might have tried to give you "hints" in the past, but let's face it - women don't understand men as much as men don't understand women. We actually had to learn that going through our own messes.

It's like my W. She keeps telling me that she has low self-esteem. so her solution is to dump her old life which she believes was a mistake and start a new one alone. WTH? When you have low self-esteem, you build on what you have and grow stronger, not tear everything down and start with nothing. That's a typical MLC response.

You have got to stop living in the past like your W. She is keeping you there. Do you believe you are a stronger and better person than before? If so, then great! You know that and that's all that matters.

Let her stay in the past if she wants to. You can't make her budge from it. Still be nice to her, invite her to things if you wish (just not to everything). Maybe (very lightly) flirt with her to keep things light since she wants you to "pursue" her, just not overdo it.

[confusedinpa]

I don't doubt that she was hurt in the past, but there comes a point where if you want to grow and move on as an ADULT, then you learn how to forgive. Period.

Not only is she not dealing with her hurt herself, she calls you to remind you how much you hurt her. That's not dealing with it. That's just projecting her undealt feelings onto you.

I do agree there has to come to a point in time where you grow and move on. I think they way she moves on is that she shuts them out. That's what she did to her dad and sister and keeps them both at arms length.

I think the big reason for the call on Sunday nite was a follow up to the one in the morning about my 7 year old and what I said about our home (I know it was a mistake). I think what drove the further emotion was her realization of how if I had signed the papers when I was served, the marriage would have been dissolved as of that Sunday. I have told her that I wasn't going to sign them (she had already signed them when she filed) as my feelings about us haven't changed.

Don't continue to beat yourself over it. You're still hanging onto the fact that she doesn't believe in YOUR changes because she keeps telling you that. It shouldn't matter what she thinks. You know they're real, that's all that matters. When she keeps hitting you with that fact, just shrug your shoulders and say "I know they're real" and end it.

The frustrating part of my changes and her is that even on Sunday, she said that she see's how I've changed and feels that I am a better, well rounded, person now that even when we first started dating. Where I get frustrated is that she then jumps into how she's been hurt and doesn't trust being vulnerable with me, which is why she doesn't want to be my wife anymore. So in a sense, she's acknowledged that they are their, but it doesn't matter. Very frustrating.

She comes up with new excuses/reasons why she hasn't gone to therapy or C. It seems like she prefers to blame everything on you and not take any responsibility. Just remember, it takes two. She might have tried to give you "hints" in the past, but let's face it - women don't understand men as much as men don't understand women. We actually had to learn that going through our own messes.

It's like my W. She keeps telling me that she has low self-esteem. so her solution is to dump her old life which she believes was a mistake and start a new one alone. WTH? When you have low self-esteem, you build on what you have and grow stronger, not tear everything down and start with nothing. That's a typical MLC response.

I am sorry to hear about your situation and where it's at. It is very frustating for all of us how our stories are so similar. I was in my small group session last Sunday after church and the two women there were talking about how they were "Compliant" (from the book Boundaries) so they never spoke up about their boundaries and just built up resentment. I jumped over both of them and said why the heck didn't they speak up. I told them my story how mine didn't but if she had made it clear to me, I would have done anything for her. Instead, I went along fat dumb and happy while she just built up so much resentment that she filed for divorce and moved out (which was also their stories). Of course I had to watch my language as this was a small group in church....

You have got to stop living in the past like your W. She is keeping you there. Do you believe you are a stronger and better person than before? If so, then great! You know that and that's all that matters.

Let her stay in the past if she wants to. You can't make her budge from it. Still be nice to her, invite her to things if you wish (just not to everything). Maybe (very lightly) flirt with her to keep things light since she wants you to "pursue" her, just not overdo it.

I think I'm starting to formulate my plan to adjust my approach with her. I'm not going to give up, but know I need to prepare my life without her, as painful as that will make me feel. I'm still going to honor my vow of love, honor and cherish, so I'm not talking about going out to find a woman, but know that day may come when we are officially divorced and I need to make sure I am doing everything not just for my boys but me as well. If that woman in the future is my wife, even better, if not, I will survive and thrive.

I'm slowly digging myself out of this funk.

Thanks for your support and I hope you all the best in yours as well.

[confusedinpa]

Well here's the plan that I'm working, I started it yesterday, but I'm fine tuning.

To be upfront, I am at grips with the fact that there is no hope to save the marriage. I know we will get divorced. Right now she is not going to change her mind nor is she doing anything to work on herself to let go of her hurt to try to forgive and give us another chance. I know that and am facing that brutal reality heads on.

I am preparing myself to a life without her. I will not be alone as I will have my sons at least 50% of the time and I will figure out financially how to best provide for them - even after she hits me for the $2500/month child support that she will get according to the formula in our state (no fighting it according to my lawyer, as well as a second lawyer I consulted). Crazy as if I gave her full custody, it would only increase to $3000. I make about 50% more than her, but the math still doesnt work in my mind. Go figure.

Anyway, I'm still working through my strategy of letting her initiate contact. When she calls now, like the last two nites for me to say good nite to the kids, I will chat with her. Namely asking her how she is and how her day was going (for example, yesterday, her company was getting audited this week so I know how hectic that is, so I ask how the audit was going). I don't try to pry into anything deeper than things like that. Tonite she said her stomach was bothering her like it was cramps, but she just had them 2 weeks ago so it was way too early. So I tried to show concern and caring that she wasn't feeling well. I will do this after I talk to the boys.

I will then also be the one to end the call with a closing of good nite or we'll chat later (before I would just say bye or if I was done talking with the boys, I would just hang up, unless she jumped on the phone).

Perhaps this is a warmer form of DIM but felt I needed to change something to what I was doing. It didn't feel like it was working. Some people will may think that since she was contacting/calling almost daily, that it was a good thing, but I got the sense she was getting more frustrated/fed up with what I was doing more than her pursuing. I know many will say that they will welcome having their WAS call them, but this wasn't the type of call or tone that I thought was healthy.

Another thing I am going to do is focus on a goal that when I have the boys I will not be thinking about how she is not there and we are incomplete. We are complete now. The boys and us are the new us, at least until a Mrs CIPA joins us, wether it is their mom or someone new. There will be no missing of mom.

It still hurts me. I'm not going to lie about that. I am still sad and struggling, but can't wallow in the self pity or the hurt.

The next thing that I need to work on for me is to forgive myself for what I've done to lead us to this disaster. This is the hardest part for me as every time I see my boys, I'm reminded of what it could have been vs. what it is. My friends tonite gave me the analogy of how it was like I was playing basketball with my boys with my favorite basketball. If we lost the ball, would I just stand there waiting and pinning over how I lost the ball and waiting for the ball to come back while the boys are wanting to play basketball. Or would I go out and find a new ball, even though it may not be my old ball. It could be better or worse, but we will continue to play ball and enjoy our lives. A weird sort of analogy, but it made sense to me.

If the boys do miss their mom, I will be supportive and understanding, but feel like I was too enabling or condoning of that feeling. I want my boys to know it is alright to be mad/sad or whatever about their mom, but don't want them to think it is what to do all the time. Since I've been so wrapped up on that, I think I've exposed them to too much of it.

When I talk to my friends/family, I will wean myself off of talking about my situation or my wife. The last two nites, when I've talked to my friends/family, I will try to close the call with general chit chat about other things that are more upbeat or asking about what's going on with them. This is part of my get a life strategy shift.

When I see my wife I will continue to be upbeat, positive, caring and attentive (so she can continue to see what she will be missing). I am focusing on the approach of I love her enough to let her feel free to do what she wants. While I may not agree with what she is doing, I will not stand in her way. I may not help it either (i.e. sign the divorce papers so it will be over right away).

I'm still struggling whether I can be a good friend with my wife. I love my wife that I want her to be my wife, but do I truly love her enough to be her friend? The flip side of it is how can a friend hurt their family like this. That is the connundrum I am struggling with.

Any thoughts on the friends thing or feedback on my strategy is greatly appreciated.

[MrBond]

"To be upfront, I am at grips with the fact that there is no hope to save the marriage. I know we will get divorced. Right now she is not going to change her mind nor is she doing anything to work on herself to let go of her hurt to try to forgive and give us another chance. I know that and am facing that brutal reality heads on."

Okay for one thing it's way to early to even think this. The problem with you saying something like this (in your first sentence no less) is that you've given up. So why bother doing all the other things you posted after it?

You haven't really been constructive at doing your own thing since your W left. Concentrate on that to build yourself up again. Once you do that you'll find forgiveness for yourself.

It comes back to this...do you want to save your M or not? There is not gray area. Either you're in it or not. Even when detaching, you can do so with the goal of wanting to save the M.

Have you written any goals in terms of DB? For example, W will initiate a friendly conversation when I do this. A few of those goals along with your own ones that will help you to detach and GAL are what will get your W back.

You've let your W drag you along her emotional rollercoaster that you're letting her trainwreck turn into yours. Think of it like playing basketball. You see the basket but can't get a clear shot because of all the obstacles in front of it. The defending players are hostile and big, so rather than charging into them head on, you pivot and weave your way around them in order to get to the basket. If one play doesn't work, then you switch it up and do something else. You just have to give a play a chance and not think of forfeiting the game because the other players are too tough.

At this point, you can still ask W to join you and the boys for dinner when you're together at one of their games. If she doesn't want to go, then hey, no biggie. I think maybe you need to give her a little of the "chase" that she's been asking for, but not too much that it becomes pursuing. It can start out as being polite, then move into something more. Establish your friendship with her first to earn her trust, then bump up the intimacy each time. Very slowly.

It comes back down to what you want.

[confusedinpa]

"To be upfront, I am at grips with the fact that there is no hope to save the marriage. I know we will get divorced. Right now she is not going to change her mind nor is she doing anything to work on herself to let go of her hurt to try to forgive and give us another chance. I know that and am facing that brutal reality heads on."

Okay for one thing it's way to early to even think this. The problem with you saying something like this (in your first sentence no less) is that you've given up. So why bother doing all the other things you posted after it?

You haven't really been constructive at doing your own thing since your W left. Concentrate on that to build yourself up again. Once you do that you'll find forgiveness for yourself.

Stuck,

Thanks for pointing that out to me. I didn't mean to imply that I was giving up. I meant to imply that I am not counting on it. I am trying to be realistic, but remaining optimistic. I'm not changing what I want. I want my wife back. I want my family back. I don't want my old marriage back as that was not healthy for any of us, but what a new one can potentially bring with a changed me.

So I'm doing the thing I mentioned afterwards not just to try and build a new marriage/life with my wife. I'm doing them with the approach of with or without my wife, doing those things will lead to a better life than where I'm currently at and potentially even where we were pre-bomb.

I really struggle with forgiving myself. What she said last nite was no different from what she said the nite of the bomb or even a couple of times up to the point where she moved out. I had been trying to figure out why I was so down. Between last nite and today, I came to the realization that I can't forgive myself is why. I'm going to talk to my therapist on this when I see her on Monday. I can forgive myself for what I've done that resulted in hurt to myself. I am struggling with forgiving myself for the hurt that I've caused my wife. I am not even close to even considering forgiving myself for what the part that I played that hurt my boys.

It comes back to this...do you want to save your M or not? There is not gray area. Either you're in it or not. Even when detaching, you can do so with the goal of wanting to save the M.

Have you written any goals in terms of DB? For example, W will initiate a friendly conversation when I do this. A few of those goals along with your own ones that will help you to detach and GAL are what will get your W back.

You've let your W drag you along her emotional rollercoaster that you're letting her trainwreck turn into yours. Think of it like playing basketball. You see the basket but can't get a clear shot because of all the obstacles in front of it. The defending players are hostile and big, so rather than charging into them head on, you pivot and weave your way around them in order to get to the basket. If one play doesn't work, then you switch it up and do something else. You just have to give a play a chance and not think of forfeiting the game because the other players are too tough.

At this point, you can still ask W to join you and the boys for dinner when you're together at one of their games. If she doesn't want to go, then hey, no biggie. I think maybe you need to give her a little of the "chase" that she's been asking for, but not too much that it becomes pursuing. It can start out as being polite, then move into something more. Establish your friendship with her first to earn her trust, then bump up the intimacy each time. Very slowly.

It comes back down to what you want.

So I do want to save my marriage and have my wife back with me and the boys, as a family as a friend. That is what I do want. I just am approaching it that if I don't achieve that, I will still be ok.

My short term goal is to enjoy the time when I have the boys so that they will not be exposed/confronted with our situation. Now that doesn't mean that I won't allow them to be sad/angry/hurt about it, but I will not enable it, as I feel like I've exposed them to too much. This goal isn't for my wife, but more for my boys and I.

My other short term goal is to go out to lunch with my wife one on one to chat and enjoy ourselves without talking about the situation. My approach to achieve this goal is to be consistently warm, friendly, caring, upbeat/positive and attentive when we do talk (I'm changing how I was doing Dark/Dim). So when she asks how I am doing (whether it is text/email or call), I will respond with a positive response. In the past, I would not answer or be very vague/mysterious in my response.

My longer term goal is to go out to dinner with my wife, one on one.

I'm not trying to have too many as I'm trying to take baby steps. I think the common ones (i.e. she will call me to chat or ask me how I am etc), she is doing already - which is the odd part which makes her very non traditional WAW like.

Tonite and last nite we've had the friendly chats and in tonite's conversation she asked if I could pick up our 7 year old and meet at the park so we can do dinner like we had in the past. So I thought that was good.

I am trying to establish friendship to re-establish trust, in the hopes of making the leap from friendship to intimacy (as Coach had outlined in his thread on being friends with a WAS). The problem/struggle I have, is do I love her enough or am I confident enough to continue to do that once the divorce is final.

Thanks for checking in one me again. All the support I've gotten the last couple of days is really helping me dig out of the funk that I got dragged into from Sunday nite's call.

I wish you the best in your situation as well.

[sandi2]

I had been hanging on and hoping for hope because of my boys. Perhaps you are right, the best thing for them may be for me to truly drop the rope and get a life for myself. I need to be in a position to decide how she will be in it.

To be sure you understand "dropping the rope"......it does include your children, by all means. However, the way I see it is that you do NOT decide how she fits into it. The point is that you move "forward and onward" with your life and you do it as though she will never be a part of it again. That is your attitude and your behavior and actions. If you are holding out and think that this is a ploy to get her back.....it will blow up in your face. It has to be done from the heart knowing that it is the best move to make. You do love her, but you give her what she says she wants. You do not fight her about it. If she wants a D, you let her do all the work to get it. If all you have to do is sign your signature, then okay. But no fighting anymore. No hanging on for dear life and no begging and pointing out the good things about M, etc. Let her go. When you do this, it make YOU act completely different. From what people say, you first feel releived from all that junk you were carring around for months. You feel a sense of freedom from that burden and most of all you feel peace. You start making plans for you and the kids. Yes, you may have to still contact her on occassion, but I would put my foot down about any of the co-dependent stuff. She just needs to get to a doctor. But I really meant to point out from your quote that you were still figuring her in the picture of dropping the rope. The point is......YOU DO NOT INCLUDE HER IN THAT PICTURE. If things work out for her to get back in that picture, that is great, but for now you need to make plans as if she is not going to be a part of your life any longer. Then you may have to make a believer out of her. I really hope I am wrong about my gut feeling about her.

You painted a different picture of her after my long post I sent to you, but I took it as a man seeing her through eyes of love. One thing that stands above all else is how you are the one that has been broken and pulled down and has taken a beating from her and then from yourself. You are still beating yourself half to death every day. When are the beatings going to stop? When are you going to forgive yourself? If she says that she might can forgive you but would never be able to trust you again? She just doesn't sound strong enough for any type of man-woman R to me. Anyway, you are the one I am trying to help here and you are very depressed and taking all the blame for what has happened. Okay, so you were deaf and blind to her needs. You cannot go back in time and change things and if she won't give you a chance to make amends now and make a better futute for the two of you......what are you suppose to do the rest of your life? How many time do you have to say you are sorry before it takes? Aren't you about to run out of "I'm sorry's"?

My suggestion for your own self esteem is to go for two weeks without saying you are sorry for anything. You may say you apologize, but don't say you are sorry. There is a big difference. Also, put a stop right now on ever saying you are sorry....again.....for what you have already said over and over for the same thing. That is degrading to yourself. She is robbing you of your self respect. That is one of the reasons I said that I did not think the two of you were very healthy for each other at this time. She doesn't trust you and you are eat up with guilt. You need to stay in therapy and she certainly needs to get help.

Got to get some rest. Talk later.

Sandi

[confusedinpa]

To be sure you understand "dropping the rope"......it does include your children, by all means. However, the way I see it is that you do NOT decide how she fits into it. The point is that you move "forward and onward" with your life and you do it as though she will never be a part of it again. That is your attitude and your behavior and actions. If you are holding out and think that this is a ploy to get her back.....it will blow up in your face. It has to be done from the heart knowing that it is the best move to make.

Absolutely that my boys are part of my look forward. Right now, it will be three of us. I'm not preparing with the consideration that my wife will be back. When I mean that "I will decide how she fits into it" is, because of the kids, I will need to maintain a co-parenting relationship with her. Right now, I get the sense that she wants/expects to be friends post-Divorce. I am trying to decide if I can be friends with someone who hurts their family by getting Divorced.

I know this is the best move for the boys and I. I can not keep us living in the past nor sitting still. I had, prior to this bomb, always been of the mindset that if you aren't constantly raising the bar, you are burying. I need to dig the bar out of the ground and get it moving

If all you have to do is sign your signature, then okay. But no fighting anymore. No hanging on for dear life and no begging and pointing out the good things about M, etc. Let her go.

Are you implying that I should sign the divorce papers now? If I don't sign, it will take another 18 months before a divorce decree is issued to dissolve the marriage. I'm going to really have to think about that one....

Yes, you may have to still contact her on occassion, but I would put my foot down about any of the co-dependent stuff. She just needs to get to a doctor.

Just as a note, she hadn't called all emotionally the last 2 nites. She had done it about 5 times since she moved out 6 weeks ago. However, I have shifted my approach over the last 2 days where in the past, when I would say goodnite to the boys, if she wound up on the phone afterwards (which was typical), I would be relatively short/abrupt in getting off the phone as she starts talking. I would let her go for a minute or two and just say things like "That's too bad" or "You've got to be kidding me" or other shallow things just to acknowledge as she talks about her day. And if she asked about my day, I wouldn't offer much other than it was good, or busy and that would be it. Then I would find a way to get off the phone.

For the last two nites, when she was on the phone, I would try to be very cheerful and ask how her day was going or if she mentioned something about the up coming week, I would follow up and ask how it went. This would happen before the boys got on the phone as well as after. Not sure if that's confusing her or it's settling her in or what. I'm still trying to gauge if this is a good approach.

I do agree about having her see a therapist. I know I can't control her to do that. I doubt if she will, nor will her friends/family push her, as she is able to hide/stuff it most of the time. I had thought about talking about how my therapy is going or just mention that I had gone that day. Sort of trying to keep the thought in front of her. I'm debating how to approach this.

Then you may have to make a believer out of her. I really hope I am wrong about my gut feeling about her.

What do you mean by making her a believer? That I'm preparing for life without her or that I've really changed?

So what is your gut feeling about her? I had thought it was that her mind is made up and she's not allowing herself to let go of her hurt or build any trust to give us a chance. I just want to make sure I got your impression right.... as tough as it may be.....

You painted a different picture of her after my long post I sent to you, but I took it as a man seeing her through eyes of love. One thing that stands above all else is how you are the one that has been broken and pulled down and has taken a beating from her and then from yourself. You are still beating yourself half to death every day. When are the beatings going to stop? When are you going to forgive yourself?

You are right, I do continue to see her through eyes of love.

What is the difference in the picture of her that I painted?

Pathetically, I feel sorry for her, for the pain that she's felt as she watched her dreams of happily ever after get crushed over the years. I know how painful it is as that's what I've been feelings since she hit me with the bomb. I also feel sorry for her that the hurt is so great, that she feels it is greater than the possibility of trying to achieve it, at least with me. I also see her as a broken woman because of all that pain.

So you are right, I am beating myself up my part that caused that pain. I think the greatest issue for me is the pain that my boys are going through. I know the beatings need to stop. It is not doing anything to raise the bar. This is my challenge - forgiving myself. How do I expect anyone to ever forgive me for this if I can't forgive myself. As a DAM, it had taken me this long to come to this realization.

How many time do you have to say you are sorry before it takes? Aren't you about to run out of "I'm sorry's"?

My suggestion for your own self esteem is to go for two weeks without saying you are sorry for anything. You may say you apologize, but don't say you are sorry. There is a big difference. Also, put a stop right now on ever saying you are sorry....again.....for what you have already said over and over for the same thing. That is degrading to yourself. She is robbing you of your self respect.

That had actually came up in the conversation on Sunday nite. When she started on the past hurt, I wound up saying that I've appologized for those before and I'm done appologizing for them. I didn't get it then, but I get it know as I've learned from them. She had responded that she wasn't looking for an appology, but she still feels that I don't get her.

That is one of the reasons I said that I did not think the two of you were very healthy for each other at this time. She doesn't trust you and you are eat up with guilt. You need to stay in therapy and she certainly needs to get help.

Got to get some rest. Talk later.

Sandi

The relationship that we have now is definitely not a healthy one. It wasn't always like this nor is this what I want as a new marriage. The question that comes up in my mind is are we both strong enough to do the work. I'm think I am and am trying to strengthen myself as I work on myself. I think she would be if could find it by letting go of the hurt and be willing to trust. I just don't see that happening any time soon, if ever...

I'm moving forward by giving up the hope and getting her back will be a bonus.

Thanks for your continued support Sandi.

[confusedinpa]

I actually just re-read my last two post and they seem to conflict with each other relative to my hope of saving my marriage. I just wanted to clarify.

I do want my wife back, but am not hopeful that will happen. The closest analogy I can make is like winning the lottery. I do hope to win, but I will not be planning my future based on winning it. That doesn't mean that I'm not going to play.

I will do all the things to make a better future for me and the boys. If I attract my wife back while doing so, that will truly be like winning the lottery for me and the boys. If I don't, we will still be ok.

Does that make sense? Or is it not committed enough so my wife may detect some uncertainty/lack of commitment?

[The Wifey]

Confused-

I have read all the posts since I was on the BB yesterday. One thing that jumped out to me is your Expectations.

The changes in you are not real until they are changes you make for you, and not so that the W will notice, W will react, or W will do something. She doesn't believe them YET, because they are not real yet.

This is not a put-down. You are getting the DB script, the ideas, and putting them into play. But, it takes a long time to go from understanding and doing them to making them a part of you. Again, not a put-down, just a fact.

I applaud you for being warmer on the phone. People that have been hurt, abandoned, or felt a loss - need their spouses to be
Dim and not Dark. Dark is not always THE solution that applies equally to everyone.

Now lets check out your understanding of nuances.

"I do want my wife back, but am not hopeful that will happen. The closest analogy I can make is like winning the lottery. I do hope to win, but I will not be planning my future based on winning it. That doesn't mean that I'm not going to play."

Nothing happens without hope and 100% commitment. It is a huge risk to walk the rails of the roller coaster and risk the greatest hurt you've ever felt rolling over you, sometimes over and over.

A hunch tells me you are man enough to live in the grey zone vs the B&W zone.

Now for the nuance, you are 100% committed, but the W doesn't know it. She assumes you are already moving on. You will be the calm in the storm for her. She won't know about your commitment to your M and her.

Can you get the nuance and DB, while being realistic it may not work, and still be that committed?