WAW - Very confused and devastated - pt 10

[confusedinpa]

Have you really given up or is that only a reaction to how bad this hurts?

No I haven't. I was refering to if I called her bluff as Sandi suggested by telling her that I accept the divorce

[The Wifey]

Ok. Good. I was imagining that blowing up really bad.

[sandi2]

I am trying to put myself in your place to get an idea of how scary it would be to drop the rope at this point in time. However, at the risk of sounding down right cruel I have to say that she sounds very whinny and complains all the time and lays all the guilt at your feet without her accepting any responsibility of the breakdown of the marriage. I know it is not me that is in love with her (which is probably a very good thing, b/c I would not have any patient with somebody of her personality traits). That is not to say that I don't feel sorry for what her dad did to her or any of the pain she has suffered, however, she is not a forgiving person (as you said) and hangs onto the hurt/anger and does not let it go. When there has been trouble in a MR, there has to be forgiveness! Look how she has done with her sister all these years. That is just stupid for an adult to keep harboring that kind of bad stuff and not enjoying a R with one's own family member. So.......where does that put you? First, if she won't forgive another person that hurt her, do you honestly think she would EVER forgive you? Even if she went back home, I bet she would whine and complain and carry on all the time about this same stuff that she is doing now. I don't see her letting it go and moving on with life! She may be depressed and probably has been for years. Sounds as if she should have been in therapy at a young age. But if she won't attend sessions now......where does that put you? You see, you are always talking about what she says or feels.....but what about YOU? How do you feel about a future with her.....honestly? I don't mean what you WISH would happen in the future, but knowing her like you do......where does it put you in the future? Would you really be happy with a person like her that is always brow-beating you about how unhappy you have made her....but she never does anything to help herself? What has she done in all of this to actually help herself? I see you going to the therapist and doing other things to try to change for the better, but what is she doing? All I see is her crying on your shoulder and telling you what a miserable life she has had. You are her scape goat! How will you ever have any self esteem yourself living with a person like her? She will keep you so pulled down that you can't see sunshine.

I know I am not sounding like a person that is trying to help bust a D, but I am trying to get you to see this from a different angle. Let's say that you sign the papers and the D goes through. That is not necessarily the END. There have been a lot of people who got back together after a D. It may be the very thing for her to find out what she really wants to do with her life and who she wants to spend it with. At first I thought she sounded like she may be in MLC, but I think your therapist may be right b/c all I see is a person who feels that her life with you has been wasted. That sounds like depression, and if she was in MLC she would be doing a lot of other things that shouted MLC......and according to what I have read.....I don't see it.

I don't mean to be offensive and I hope you understand that part. I am just saying that it sounds like it would be a very unhealty R to stay with her as she is now. She needs to understand how much she needs help......and to go get it for herself. She needs to stop expecting somebody else to "make" her happy.....especially you! Do I make sense or am I talking in circles? I realize that it is very easy from my end to give out this advise and not have to travel the path. All I can do is throw it out there and you take it or leave it. My personal thoughts about it all is that there may be "hope" after a D, but I don't see a lot of it now. In time, she may come to see how wrong SHE has been in all of this--and other relationships as well. Hopefully, she will seek out the therapy she needs and mentally and emotionally heals to a much stronger person. In the meantime, you need to think about you and your sons. You need to get a real life for yourself. You know what you will have to do in order to accomplish that, don't you? That means that after the D she cannot continue to hang onto you and whine and cry and blame you with all her sadness. I will bet you that is exactly what she will do after the D b/c that is who and what she is! It is up to you if you want her to drag you down with her or if you decide that it is more healthy to back away and detach from her......drop the rope.....and consentrate on your life and your sons. As I told you almost in the beginning.....I think both of you are co-dependent on each other and I don't see this as a healthy relationship.

Whatever happens, you will still have us here to try to encourage you along the way. There are many, many people here on the board whose M's did not make it......but THEY made it. See the difference? This board is about helping people through a really bad time but coming out as a whole person and being stronger and getting on with their lives. Many of those people stay here on the board to help others. Do not feel that you have failed b/c this has not been a one-person R. It takes two to make a R. You have tried.

It does not work for you to try to give her the attention NOW that she once wanted. I realize that you may not understand that, but it is what it is. As she said, it is too late now for you to try to be what she once wanted. She would not have those feelings at this time....that she once desired. That is why I kept telling you to detach and drop the rope.

Maybe she has her mind made up......or maybe she is wanting to see if you will go through with the D--or beg her to stay M to you. Perhaps she just wants to see what being single is like. Some depressed people think that their S is causing all their problems so they will ditch the S and their lives will be happier. When she sees that doesn't work.....then she will probably want to go back to you. I can't see her not hanging on and continuing doing exactly what she is doing now......but I may be wrong.

I feel that she's not bluffing and will actually be hurt when I say that I've given up as well and want a divorce.

Okay, say she is not bluffing. Of course she will be hurt....whatever you do! Don't you get that? You will not be able to do ANYTHING right! She has you over a barrel which ever way you turn. She uses that excuse of "being hurt" all the time. Aren't you getting sick of it?

She had said that was one of the two reactions she expected from me when she filed. The other would be I would get so angry that I would be violent (where I have NEVER been violent and only raised my voice less than 5 times in the 12 years we were together). She was totally not expecting that I would want to work on it as she felt I gave up loving her years ago. She said that she thought about withdrawing the divorce when I told her that I wanted to work on it, but said that she was just too afraid of getting hurt again.

Now, read this quote again. Do you see what I am saying? You can't win with her no matter what you do. She has said that herself. The last part of what she said is why I thought she was playing games with you. She is on again.....off again. You can't win. How could you win when dealing with an emotionally unhealty person? I pray that she will seek the help she so despartely needs.

I apologize if my post sounds cold b/c I do not intend for it to be so. I am trying to be realistic with you and hope that you will look at the sticth as so.

Talk later,
Sandi

[confusedinpa]

Sandi

I do sincerely appreciate the candor. A lot of what you said was what my therapist had said relative to challenging, the way she is now, what do I love about her. There isn't much. I do feel sorry for my part of hurting her. Perhaps I'm blinded by love, but I do feel that she did everything she knew or was comfortable to do. As I felt I was as well back then. I see my mistakes now as I'm trying to grow from them. Ironically, I think now some of what she had done I would understand now (I missed some obvious cries for attention - ie Buy me a Rose lyrics in a card).

I'm actually been toying with Coach's thought of being friends with a WAW. I was adamantly against it originally, but after reading Coach's post, its making me think. I know a D doesn't have to mean the end. Even my wife brought that up about a month before she moved out. She said divorced people have gotten back together.

I have a lot to think about but I'm really getting tired (didn't sleep last nite because of the call).

I do feel so sorry for what I've done and for her. I've appologized more than enough. I know that. I also sorry for what we've done to our sons lives.

I must survive to thrive for me and my boys. I have a lot to think about

Thank you for all your sharing. It means a lot to me to know there are people like you on this board who cares enough and takes the time to help people in their weakest moments.

Thank you

[confusedinpa]

However, at the risk of sounding down right cruel I have to say that she sounds very whinny and complains all the time and lays all the guilt at your feet without her accepting any responsibility of the breakdown of the marriage.

When she goes on about still feeling hurt and not being able to trust me anymore, she isn't whinny, or at least how I percieve as whinny, she is usually crying and I feel the hurt/sadness/disappointment from her. Perhaps she has done such a good job of laying on the guilt or that I'm blinded by love, or what, but I do accept my share of the responsibility of treating her cruelly by making her feel unlovable.

I know she doesn't accept any of the responsibility of the breakdown of the marriage. At one point I challenged her on that and she had said that she did everything that she knew to do. She got us to marriage counselling, she tried to make changes (i.e. weight loss, hair, sex, etc.) but she said that I didn't get it and she didn't know how to get through to me. She had read countless number of books (she filled 6 milk crates full when she packed up to move out) She felt that I had given up and stopped loving her many years ago. Looking back, I see how she felt that way.

Along the way, I had gotten so focus on giving her things, I forgot to give her myself. I felt I had to shoulder all the burden and responsibilities of provide for the family, I forgot that I had a fully capable, wonder wife that wanted to walk with me. Instead, I constantly left her by the road side.

She had kept my love tanks filled all these years while hers went empty and starving.

The part that she owned is that she couldn't tell me I didn't know how bad it was. Remember, I am a DAM, so I didn't hear/understand what she was trying to tell me. Perhaps I didn't want to hear/understand it as I didn't want to believe it. I don't know what it is. Our marriage counselor (the new one, who is also my therapist) said that she should have taken it to the point of locking me in a room and talking/yelling until I understood. Clearly I understand now and want to work on it. I guess that's her part. Part of what also tears me up, is why should she have had to do that. She didn't, but she shouldn't have had to. Why didn't I know? The signs/messages were there. I see that now. Why didn't I see them back then.

So do I see how she was hurt and am I sorry. Absolutely. Do I feel like it's all my fault, at times I do but I know that's not entirely true. I guess one of the things to my own recovery is to forgive myself first.

That is not to say that I don't feel sorry for what her dad did to her or any of the pain she has suffered, however, she is not a forgiving person (as you said) and hangs onto the hurt/anger and does not let it go. When there has been trouble in a MR, there has to be forgiveness!

We had talked about forgiveness a while back, when we were still sleeping in the same bed. I had told her that I couldn't believe that the woman I love and not find it in her heart to forgive me. She said that she did forgive me but couldn't trust me with her heart again. The analogy she used if someone killed a loved one, she could forgive that person, but would never trust that person again. I was really taken back by her analogy, but I think that was how she felt. All the years with me, she felt that I killed a part of her. The part that was a loving spouse who gave me all her heart.

Even if she went back home, I bet she would whine and complain and carry on all the time about this same stuff that she is doing now. I don't see her letting it go and moving on with life! She may be depressed and probably has been for years.

Personally, IF (a BIG IF) she comes back, she wouldn't whine or complain, I think she would be constantly scared and walking on eggshells. The nite she moved into the spare bedroom, we had talked about letting go. I had told her that if she can't let go to give us another chance, I do lover her enough that I want her to let go so she would at least be able to have a chance to be happy and move on with her life.

I think she is depressed as well. Most people would be. She was a very sheltered person and really didn't know how to deal with all this pain and hurt that was, according to her, most of our marriage. She bottled it up and was afraid to say anything, worried that I would leave her. She didn't have enough confidence, nor did she realize how much I truly loved her. I can imagine that she is depressed as well as she doesn't want to wind up like her mother. Never moving on and waited over a decade for her husband to come back. She also saw how her mother took her Dad back a couple of times, only to be hurt again. I think that's why she is so hell bent on moving the divorce forward, as she doesn't want to be like her mother.

Where does that put you? You see, you are always talking about what she says or feels.....but what about YOU? How do you feel about a future with her.....honestly? I don't mean what you WISH would happen in the future, but knowing her like you do......where does it put you in the future? Would you really be happy with a person like her that is always brow-beating you about how unhappy you have made her....but she never does anything to help herself? What has she done in all of this to actually help herself? I see you going to the therapist and doing other things to try to change for the better, but what is she doing? All I see is her crying on your shoulder and telling you what a miserable life she has had. You are her scape goat! How will you ever have any self esteem yourself living with a person like her? She will keep you so pulled down that you can't see sunshine.

I don't want to believe this will be true, but it is something in the back of my mind. Will I be walking on eggshells around her for the rest of my life? Afraid that the slightest mistake will put her back into a tailspin? Do I want that for her? I don't think that she will pull me down, but I think I will do it to myself. I will be constantly monitoring, second guessing, etc. But that's the part of DB/DR where I need to work on myself so I can forgive myself and have confidence that I can/have learned from mistakes. And it will be ok to slip up, as long as I recognize and continue to grow and learn from them.

I do want her back because I see now how hard she has tried over the years while I took it all for granted as I thought everything was fine because I was happy. It was incredibly selfish of me. I knew there were things that she wasn't happy about, but just didn't know to the extent of how bad it was eating her up. I wound up trivalizing them in my mind as I didn't know how important they were to her.

I think that's part of getting of her that she's been dropping on me. I guess part of me is saying why didn't she tell me, but another part of me is why didn't I know. Wouldn't most "normal" people have known?

It may be the very thing for her to find out what she really wants to do with her life and who she wants to spend it with.

The sad part about it was that she had thought she wanted to spend it with me, but she said I took all her love and just threw it away while I chipped away her love for me by being so mean.

I do feel sad/pity for my wife and my boys. I feel sorry that my wife feels like her dreams of "happily ever after" have been crushed/stolen from her. I feel sorry for what my boys are going through. I am angry with myself for not getting it. I know that is all a bad combination, but I'm trying to work through all that with my therapist. Forgiving myself......

[confusedinpa]

Just breaking up my post as it was getting very long...

I don't mean to be offensive and I hope you understand that part. I am just saying that it sounds like it would be a very unhealty R to stay with her as she is now. She needs to understand how much she needs help......and to go get it for herself. She needs to stop expecting somebody else to "make" her happy.....especially you! Do I make sense or am I talking in circles? I realize that it is very easy from my end to give out this advise and not have to travel the path. All I can do is throw it out there and you take it or leave it. My personal thoughts about it all is that there may be "hope" after a D, but I don't see a lot of it now. In time, she may come to see how wrong SHE has been in all of this--and other relationships as well. Hopefully, she will seek out the therapy she needs and mentally and emotionally heals to a much stronger person.

I do appreciate the frank, honest assessment. My therapist and friends have said soemthing very similar. It is hard to hear, but it takes true friends to tell you things that are very important, even if they are what you want to hear. Thank you

In the meantime, you need to think about you and your sons. You need to get a real life for yourself. You know what you will have to do in order to accomplish that, don't you? That means that after the D she cannot continue to hang onto you and whine and cry and blame you with all her sadness. I will bet you that is exactly what she will do after the D b/c that is who and what she is! It is up to you if you want her to drag you down with her or if you decide that it is more healthy to back away and detach from her......drop the rope.....and consentrate on your life and your sons. As I told you almost in the beginning.....I think both of you are co-dependent on each other and I don't see this as a healthy relationship.

I had been hanging on and hoping for hope because of my boys. Perhaps you are right, the best thing for them may be for me to truly drop the rope and get a life for myself. I need to be in a position to decide how she will be in it.

I need to get back focused on working on myself. There is not a marriage or relationship right now with my wife to be worked on. I have to accept the brutal facts as all that is gone now. I can work on myself and the relationship I have with my boys.

Whatever happens, you will still have us here to try to encourage you along the way. There are many, many people here on the board whose M's did not make it......but THEY made it. See the difference? This board is about helping people through a really bad time but coming out as a whole person and being stronger and getting on with their lives. Many of those people stay here on the board to help others. Do not feel that you have failed b/c this has not been a one-person R. It takes two to make a R. You have tried.

I do appreciate all the support, encouragement and 2x4's that I get from the people on this board. It really amazes me. I do not believe I would have a chance to make it without the people on this board. Thank you so much.

It does not work for you to try to give her the attention NOW that she once wanted. I realize that you may not understand that, but it is what it is. As she said, it is too late now for you to try to be what she once wanted. She would not have those feelings at this time....that she once desired. That is why I kept telling you to detach and drop the rope.

I know detaching and dropping the rope is what I need to do. It is hard and I really struggle to find the strength to do that. I know I can frustrate many people on this board as everyone has been telling me the same thing of what to do but I just can't do it. I keep slipping back. That's where the 2x4's really do help. They prop me back up and help support my walls to get them straight and strong again.

Maybe she has her mind made up......or maybe she is wanting to see if you will go through with the D--or beg her to stay M to you. Perhaps she just wants to see what being single is like. Some depressed people think that their S is causing all their problems so they will ditch the S and their lives will be happier. When she sees that doesn't work.....then she will probably want to go back to you. I can't see her not hanging on and continuing doing exactly what she is doing now......but I may be wrong.

I guess the only person who knows all that besides her, and I have some doubts whether she really knows what she wants, is GOD.

Okay, say she is not bluffing. Of course she will be hurt....whatever you do! Don't you get that? You will not be able to do ANYTHING right! She has you over a barrel which ever way you turn. She uses that excuse of "being hurt" all the time. Aren't you getting sick of it?

She had said that was one of the two reactions she expected from me when she filed. The other would be I would get so angry that I would be violent (where I have NEVER been violent and only raised my voice less than 5 times in the 12 years we were together). She was totally not expecting that I would want to work on it as she felt I gave up loving her years ago. She said that she thought about withdrawing the divorce when I told her that I wanted to work on it, but said that she was just too afraid of getting hurt again.

Now, read this quote again. Do you see what I am saying? You can't win with her no matter what you do. She has said that herself. The last part of what she said is why I thought she was playing games with you. She is on again.....off again. You can't win. How could you win when dealing with an emotionally unhealty person? I pray that she will seek the help she so despartely needs.

I actually started feeling this way a couple of years ago and I called her out on it. I had told her that I felt that no matter what I did, she would find fault. I think that was when I started shutting down/backing away from her because I was getting frustrated. I didn't realize that was what I was doing back then. I see it now and how it added to her hurt and drove us further apart. I didn't take the time nor had to skills to really work on what the true problem was.

I do now and I guess I must accept the fact that it may be too late.....

I apologize if my post sounds cold b/c I do not intend for it to be so. I am trying to be realistic with you and hope that you will look at the sticth as so.

Sandi - no appologies are necessary for being a friend that is trying to help someone who is struggling to see the truth. Thank you for caring and being there. It helps to know I am not alone and there are people who will support me.

Take care

[PMA_Baby!]

Unfortunately, I see a lot of similiarities in your Sitch w mine and my X. YOU cant force someone to CHANGE or WORK on themselves. YOU CANT force someone to FORGIVE. We all have FREE WILL. Until she chooses to FORGIVE and MOVE ON for herself she will be STUCK. I DONT see her doing this for awhile. She is still in DENIAL. She is living in a fantasy world. I think it's time you wake her up. I think you should write her a letter saying everything you just said. Stress how you were BLIND and DIDNT GET IT. Then say, but you understand her feelings and how you cant have a future together if she doesnt TRUST YOU and work towards FORGIVENESS. I think it's time you called her bluff and be prepared for it to go all the way which doesnt mean you won't end up together. I just dont see her making any movements either way while "stuck" in her holding pattern.

I could be completely wrong and may be told Im stupid for suggesting it, but I cant stop how I feel after following this story from the beginning. Like I said I can relate to a lot of the same issues. Although, my WAXW had an OM that she never even admitted that was just a close friend. Even though they are now outwardly dating after our D. Hopefully, you are NOT dealing w an OM, but you might still be surprised later in one form or another.

PATIENCE is definitely a virture and requirement when in DB mode.

But I dont see time being a factor with her in her current "stuck" mindset. She might want you to FIGHT for her. Like Sandi said, she's not exhibiting the "typical" WAS behavior. I could be wrong and she might eventually come around in a year or so, but I dont see her working on her FORGIVENESS and TRUST issues. Until she does then nothing CAN HAPPEN.

God Speed. PMA

[confusedinpa]

I think what sandi means by calling her bluff isn't to be the first one to sign the papers. Just do what you're supposed to have been doing all this time...GAL.

Right now every interaction you have is with your W and how you should act or not act around her. And she calls ALOT! So, you need to detach more. More meaning not to let her suck you into her way of confusion.

Stuck - that makes more sense to me. I had been down trying to go down that path, but the phone call from 2.5 weeks ago really pulled me off the path. That was the first one since she moved out where she called to say that she still felt hurts and knows that she needs to see a therapist to move on before we could go back to counseling. It gave me hope. I see it was false hope.

There is no "hurt". Because if it was that bad, then she wouldn't be calling you to begin with.

I do think there really is hurt. I'm afraid that part of her call on Sunday was to try and make it hurt less by creating closure by telling me again that she doesn't want to be my wife as she can't trust me to be vulnerable again. When we chatted lightly yesterday, I had mentioned that I didn't get much sleep after the conversation. She said that she slept ok (I interpret that as a sense of relief) but said that she looked crappy from crying so much.

The part that adds to my sadness is that I think she is calling me because she know's I'm hurt and still genuinely cares about how I am doing. She wants me to be good as she still cares and seems to have feelings for me as a person, friend, father of the boys. Just is afraid to allow herself to have feelings for me as a husband.

This is the healing that I think she needs to go through. To be able to trust someone again with her heart. Not because she is waiting for me to come back (like her mom did with her dad), but because the hurt/pain was so great, she doesn't want to experience it again.

I still believe that she didn't want to hurt me or the boys. It's just that the pain was to great for her to bear. I pushed her past the limit and she is broken emotionally. As I am now. We both wanted happily ever after. I thought I had it, at the expense of her's. Now neither one of us have it. I want her to have it because she is very important to me, but she doesn't want it from me. I want to have it and know that I can find it. I just have to find the strength to do it.

Trust you with what? She trusts you with the kids, she trusts calling you, for god's sake, she trusted you touching her before she left. She has no idea how a "wife should love her husband" because she doesn't know. It probably stems back to her childhood where her mom was waiting for her dad to come home all those years. She was probably waiting too and was expecting him to be this perfect Prince Charming to her mom. Well she's looking for that in you and no one can ever live to such a high expectation.

She actually had said much of that when we talked on Sunday. She said that she trust me with the kids and knows that I am and will always be a great dad. She says that even now when I touch her (I stopped trying to hug her a long time ago, but I do non-sexual touches when we are together), she just says that she doesn't feel anything. She said that when I used to touch her in bed, pre-bomb, she would be ready instantly. The same as when I used to put my arm around her or held her hand. Unfortunately, I did all of that less and less as I got focused on the things, than the moments. She wanted me to do those things more often, rather than just providing things.

She said I did all of these things when we dated but shortly after we got married, I started doing it less and less. I was her Prince Charming but I turned into an emotionless ogre.

I think the high expectation she has of me know is just her sensitivity to being hurt again. Even before she moved out, I had noticed how "jumpy" she was when certain things would happen. I had asked her about that and she said that in the past I would over react and make her feel worthless when she did something that she felt that I didn't approve. She wasn't used to how I was accepting and didn't get mad/upset about things being very rigid.

My therapist says that was part of the mild depression I was struggling with. As I had issues dealing with stress so I shut down emotionally, any deviation from the norm resulted in an overreaction. I never hit or yelled at her, but she felt that I would put her down and make her feel worthless and that I didn't love her.

The only reason I think it's an MLC is because according to the research, that's the time when men and women re-evaluate their lives and even come to grips with un-resolved issues in their childhood.

During that period, they get emotional (cry, angry, depressed, etc.) because they don't understand what's going on inside them. Think of a teenager. Some have a ton of angst, others are passive, while others discover what their limits are. It's the same way with MLC and I see your W going through all that.

Fact is you can't analyze her because she doesn't understand herself. Only thing you can do is hold on while she goes through this journey alone. You can, however, gently guide her in the right direction if you do it in the right way.

Sandi's been great at helping me with that.

I know all I can do is try to guide her to heal herself. I can't do it for her. It's an interesting dilemma as I know I can add to her hurt, but can't do anything to remove it. I want to go through this journey with her, but know I can't. That's where I do feel powerless at times.

This is where I, since reading Coach's thought of being friends with a WAS, have been rethinking my position on that. I do love my wife. I do want what's best for her. Isn't that the key elements of being a friend. The connundrum is how do I deal with what's she's doing now? I know a friend would not do something as hurtful as what's she's doing to our family. However, the compassion piece is that I feel she doesn't want to hurt us, it's just that the pain/hurt was too much to bear.

I know I need to detach, drop the rope and get a life so I will be the best for me and the boys.

But what to do about my WAS? Do I love her enough that I can be a friend.....

[confusedinpa]

Unfortunately, I see a lot of similiarities in your Sitch w mine and my X. YOU cant force someone to CHANGE or WORK on themselves. YOU CANT force someone to FORGIVE. We all have FREE WILL. Until she chooses to FORGIVE and MOVE ON for herself she will be STUCK. I DONT see her doing this for awhile. She is still in DENIAL. She is living in a fantasy world. I think it's time you wake her up. I think you should write her a letter saying everything you just said. Stress how you were BLIND and DIDNT GET IT. Then say, but you understand her feelings and how you cant have a future together if she doesnt TRUST YOU and work towards FORGIVENESS. I think it's time you called her bluff and be prepared for it to go all the way which doesnt mean you won't end up together. I just dont see her making any movements either way while "stuck" in her holding pattern.

I could be completely wrong and may be told Im stupid for suggesting it, but I cant stop how I feel after following this story from the beginning. Like I said I can relate to a lot of the same issues. Although, my WAXW had an OM that she never even admitted that was just a close friend. Even though they are now outwardly dating after our D. Hopefully, you are NOT dealing w an OM, but you might still be surprised later in one form or another.

PATIENCE is definitely a virture and requirement when in DB mode.

PMA_Baby,

Thanks for your insights. I still don't believe there is someone else in my situation, but I can never be 100% certain. I hope that if I am surprised in the future, I will be stronger at that point so it will not derail me.

I don't see her forgiving and do know that in the case with her dad and sister, neither one of them tried to get her to forgive. Neither one of them made an attempt to re-establish the trust or relationship. At least not for about 15 years. Her sister had talked about it over the last 2 years, but haven't made any effort to do so, nor has my wife.

But I dont see time being a factor with her in her current "stuck" mindset. She might want you to FIGHT for her. Like Sandi said, she's not exhibiting the "typical" WAS behavior. I could be wrong and she might eventually come around in a year or so, but I dont see her working on her FORGIVENESS and TRUST issues. Until she does then nothing CAN HAPPEN.

In your situation, did you try and FIGHT for your wife? And what do you mean FIGHT for your wife?

I think to prepare to fight for my wife, I need to get a life, detach, drop the rope, re-establish confidence and forgive myself. I'm trying to do these things. It is a struggle and I definitely have my ups and downs, as well as progress with backslides. I am starting to feel like I'm beginning to recover from my latest backslide/funk. I'm feeling a little better and will take my therapist's suggestion of focusing on a short term goal of having a great time with my boys and making sure nothing about this situation prevents me from enjoying that time.

So, what does fighting for my wife mean?

I'm toying with the friendship (Coach started an interesting thread on this) piece of it but not sure if that's what you mean by fight.

Or is it courting/wooing her, not a high speed pursuit, but a stealthy pursuit.

Any thoughts? I know this is so anti-DB/DR but my wife is really confusing as she doesn't exhibit the "typical" WAW behaviors.

[PMA_Baby!]

So, what does fighting for my wife mean?

Good questions. What does "Fighting" mean?

Lots of things:

- Deciding no matter what that you are going to fight for your marriage

- Ignoring the words and focusing on his/her actions

- Ignoring family/friends telling you to give up. It's over!

- Putting your kids welfare first no matter what. "Fighting" for their STABILITY and SAFETY.

- "Fighting" your own PRIDE. Not letting resentment or hurt get in the way of your main GOAL of getting your WAS back.

- Not being afraid to EXPOSE the affair. She got mad when I first spoke with my family and her sister about it so I backed off. Should have got evidence and gone to her Insurance agency Director and tell him what this SOB of a mentor was up to. Convinced myself that it didnt matter anyway. That if she didnt want to be with me then it would be some OM. Not true. Should have EXPOSED. Although, because I was NICE and DBing she didnt fight for support and we both have Joint Physical Custody which is better for our D3.5.

Looking back at my M. Did I fight? Yes. Did I fight as hard as I could? I'm not sure. At some point I think I let my pride get the best of me.
Fine she is not going to admit that she is having an affair. Forget it!
Fine she is not going to take any responsibility for our marriage being broken. Fine forget it!
Fine. She doesnt want to be with me. Fine forget it!

I can look back and know that I fought for my M. I tried being nice for the first year and DB my heart out, but when she continued the A w OM and didnt want to take on any of the responsibilities that we both had acquired (bought 6 rental properties. Signed 7 30 yr mortgages. She didnt want to deal with them anymore. Wanted me to take on all the responsibility. She wanted to focus on her new insurance business that she had started and was being mentored by her OM. Who, ofcourse, when questioned, was just a friend.) So yeah, eventually, I gave in and stopped taking on everything in order to save the M. I stopped ENABLING. stopped her CAKE-EATING. She just got meaner. Was used to me being a DOORMAT - Duh!!

Anyway, I digress. This is what I mean "FIGHTING FOR YOUR M".

PMA