Dim to me is where I do not initiate any calls/contact but when we do interact, I show her a happy, positive, caring and attentive CIPA.
Okay, I understand.
About the call on Sunday......first of all, let me say this to you about telling your 7 years old child that you may not be able to keep your house if Mommy doesn't come back home. If I had a club right now, I would use it on you. You NEVER, EVER tell a child that young anything like that! It will cause his insecurities to increase by leeps and bounds. Children are not equipped to deal with adult "business" matters. There is no telling how he may have interpreted that one issue. You are so caught up in your problems and emotions that you are not using wisdom where your children are concerned. Please be careful in the future what you say to them.
Next, if you had the children with you, then you knew her call was not anything about the kids, so you should not have responded. You walked right into that one and further more, I think you knew you would!
Your wife is doing more of the same old---same old, nothing has changed. You are still talking waaaaaay too much in response to her complaining. You want to know what you should do??? I can tell you but you won't do it b/c it would be something you are afraid to do. If it were me, I would call her bluff! All this yacking about her trying to make up her mind and she is just keeping you sitting in the "hot seat" (where she wants you to be) and she keeps calling the shots.........the next time she came up with all this stuff about divorce, I would just tell her to do whatever she feels she has to do and I would not argue with her or try to get her to change her mind. She will play this game as long as you continue to be her puppet!
Got to go to work. Talk more later.
Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
About the call on Sunday......first of all, let me say this to you about telling your 7 years old child that you may not be able to keep your house if Mommy doesn't come back home. If I had a club right now, I would use it on you. You NEVER, EVER tell a child that young anything like that! It will cause his insecurities to increase by leeps and bounds. Children are not equipped to deal with adult "business" matters. There is no telling how he may have interpreted that one issue. You are so caught up in your problems and emotions that you are not using wisdom where your children are concerned. Please be careful in the future what you say to them.
I know that was a huge mistake. I didn't start by going that route. I started by saying that we may have to sell the house and move. When he started stressing about how he liked the house and doesn't want to move I guess I lost it as well. It was really a hard thing for me to deal with and I know it was totally unfair for me to share this burden with him. I'll have him back on Thurs so I'll make sure I talk to him about this to diffuse it as much as possible.
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Next, if you had the children with you, then you knew her call was not anything about the kids, so you should not have responded. You walked right into that one and further more, I think you knew you would!
I didn't have the kids with me on the call Sunday. She had called earlier, about 15 minutes after she picked up the kids as my 3 year old wanted to remind me to charge the battery on his ride on dump truck so it will be ready when he comes home. So when she called back about 10 minutes later, I thought it was more of the same. Boy was I wrong....
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Your wife is doing more of the same old---same old, nothing has changed. You are still talking waaaaaay too much in response to her complaining. You want to know what you should do??? I can tell you but you won't do it b/c it would be something you are afraid to do. If it were me, I would call her bluff! All this yacking about her trying to make up her mind and she is just keeping you sitting in the "hot seat" (where she wants you to be) and she keeps calling the shots.........the next time she came up with all this stuff about divorce, I would just tell her to do whatever she feels she has to do and I would not argue with her or try to get her to change her mind. She will play this game as long as you continue to be her puppet!
Wow - that is really a tough one. From last nite's call, it sounded like she's is done making up her mind as she said pretty clearly that she doesn't want to be my wife any more as she doesn't trust me. Part of the conversation last nite was she felt that I still don't get her and am not listening to her, so it was more of the same from the past.
I don't follow the strategy of telling her to do whatever she feels she has to do and not to try to change her mind. Now remember, I am, as you had pointed out, a DAM :-p
PS - glad you're feeling better and for stopping by with your club!
Me 41 WAW 36 S 3&7 M 10 yrs W files D 1/9/09 W moves out 4/18 Lost job 6/15 New job 7/27 Disc PA 8/10 (started Nov 2008!) Confronted 8/11 Admits PA & appologies for hurt 9/11 Lost Job 11/13
From last nite's call, it sounded like she's is done making up her mind as she said pretty clearly that she doesn't want to be my wife any more as she doesn't trust me.
How many times in your life, especially when you were fighting with your wife, have you said something that you did not mean? You may have said it because you were pissed off and/or hurt...but you did not mean it! Other people do these things too! Don't believe ANYTHING she says right now! Shed it like water off a duck's back.
"Always go straight forward, and if you meet the devil, cut him in two and go between the pieces." - William Sturgis, clipper ship captain, 1830's.
How many times in your life, especially when you were fighting with your wife, have you said something that you did not mean? You may have said it because you were pissed off and/or hurt...but you did not mean it! Other people do these things too! Don't believe ANYTHING she says right now! Shed it like water off a duck's back.
After the call last nite, I tried to calm myself with the fact that she said exactly the same thing before she left and about a month after the Divorce filing. Unfortunately, I kept coming up with another thing that she said, that she felt "the urgent need to escape the hurt before it was too late" - meaning move out. Now that she's "escaped the hurt", she now feels like its really too late.
I know that she can't/won't let go of the hurt, nor get any help to do so. I don't know why, but do know I can't do anything about it. Until then, there is no chance to rebuild the trust.
I'm still struggling with what she said of how she feels since she's moved out, I had shown her that I hadn't changed as I've been neglecting her again - not calling, talking, chatting, etc. I had told her that was my way of respecting her time and space to heal, but she said that the time and space to heal was not to be asked to go to dinner or lunch all the time. So she's said that I should call if I want to call (she said the same thing about 3 weeks ago).
I really don't get it as this is so anti DB/DR. I've bounced along other threads and haven't seen anything like this come up. Part of me thinks it's cake eating. Part of me thing she's trying to pull my strings like a puppet as I've given her all the power. Part of me also thinks she's being truthful as that is what she really wants.
She did call me this morning. I was in a meeting and couldn't really hear her so I told her that I would just call her back later. When I called her back, she said I had forgotten to pack my 3 year old's pillow for school and his day care tuition was due today. She chit chatted a bit and I joked around with her with a postive upbeat attitude.
I'm still confused though. What to do?!?!?!?!
This now the second time she's asked/stated that I should call her if I wanted to. Very bizzare, even for a WAW
Me 41 WAW 36 S 3&7 M 10 yrs W files D 1/9/09 W moves out 4/18 Lost job 6/15 New job 7/27 Disc PA 8/10 (started Nov 2008!) Confronted 8/11 Admits PA & appologies for hurt 9/11 Lost Job 11/13
Well when you've wanted to call her but didn't what did you want to talk about? IF you call her and I'm guessing you will in the next few days just make sure no R talk at all, keep it short and sweet.
Me:40 W: 39 T: 17 years M: 15 years S-9 D-6 D final 11/10/2009
"We are all faced with a series of great opportunities brilliantly disguised as insoluble problems."
Well when you've wanted to call her but didn't what did you want to talk about? IF you call her and I'm guessing you will in the next few days just make sure no R talk at all, keep it short and sweet.
When I wanted to call her, but didn't I wanted to just ask how she was doing or what was going on (in a non-relationship way). I guess it's part of the co-dependency thing where just hearing her voice calms me. Ironically, part of my wife's complaing pre-bomb was that when I traveled (I went to Europe for about a week about every 10 weeks) that I would never call. I would send a couple of text, but nothing of substance. I had told her that I didn't call because of the time difference (didn't want to wake her or the kids) as well as that I do get sad when I'm that far and hear her voice, but know I'm not there.
I'm still debating about calling her. I talked to my friend who is a WAW and she suggests that my wife just needs a shoulder to cry on or a friend to help her through this or someway to make her feel wanted by someone. She thinks I would be wasting my time and that I should just move on. It make sense to me, but she also said that she, in a million years, would never want to have her husband as a friend or a shoulder to cry on.
If I do call, I was going to keep it light chit chat - sort of like (hold the 2x4's) date conversation. Again, IF I do call.
Another thought is that she is truly too afraid to openly make herself trust me or be vulnerable with me, so this is her attempt to see, sorta like putting her small toe in the water.
I know Sandi said something similar to my WAW friend as that I would be wasting my time and helping her right out of my life.
I just don't know.
So folks, has anybody have a WAW, after they left, be upset that the LBS hasn't called.....
Me 41 WAW 36 S 3&7 M 10 yrs W files D 1/9/09 W moves out 4/18 Lost job 6/15 New job 7/27 Disc PA 8/10 (started Nov 2008!) Confronted 8/11 Admits PA & appologies for hurt 9/11 Lost Job 11/13
PS - glad you're feeling better and for stopping by with your club!
LOL.....anytime. But I must have read your post too quickly b/c I did misunderstand about having the children Sunday....so I do apologize for that one. I can understand how easy it is to tell kids too much.....I really can, but I hope you can take my "experienced" advice and be very careful what you say b/c we don't see it from a little child's POV.
Quote:
I don't follow the strategy of telling her to do whatever she feels she has to do and not to try to change her mind. Now remember, I am, as you had pointed out, a DAM :-p
Nothing hard about it. It is the same thing I have told you all along......"drop the rope". I think she protesteth too much! I feel that she is telling you this same old stuff over and over to work you (as I said before) like a puppet. At any rate, from where I see it, that is the best route to take. I know you think you have dropped the rope.....but in your heart you haven't. When you truly drop the rope you will be able to feel peace and not worry and be able to move forward with you life whether it includes her or not. Until you reach that level of mentality, you have not really dropped anything. The point is this......SHE KNOWS IT! I may be as wrong as sin, but I think if you were to call her bluff.....she would make a turn about face quicker than you could blink. If she thought you really did not care if she divorced you or if you "wanted" a D, then she would suddenly see you as unavailable to her and you would become more attractive and she would want you IMHO. I am just thinking like a female. You guys may be a DAM, but we are just plain crazy in how we think! Stop and think about this. If there is no other man in the picture, why would she want to D you? Oh, I know all those old excuses she is using, but I don't buy it. If you have not seen any of the MLC symptons in her (and I don't know that I have) then what is the deal with her? Women don't usually get a D unless there is another person, abuse, MLC, or just can't take living with no love in return. She may think you don't "listen" to her, etc., but she knows you LOVE her. So again, I ask you.......what is the real deal with her?
Talk later, Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I don't follow the strategy of telling her to do whatever she feels she has to do and not to try to change her mind. Now remember, I am, as you had pointed out, a DAM :-p
Nothing hard about it. It is the same thing I have told you all along......"drop the rope". I think she protesteth too much! I feel that she is telling you this same old stuff over and over to work you (as I said before) like a puppet. At any rate, from where I see it, that is the best route to take. I know you think you have dropped the rope.....but in your heart you haven't. When you truly drop the rope you will be able to feel peace and not worry and be able to move forward with you life whether it includes her or not. Until you reach that level of mentality, you have not really dropped anything. The point is this......SHE KNOWS IT! I may be as wrong as sin, but I think if you were to call her bluff.....she would make a turn about face quicker than you could blink. If she thought you really did not care if she divorced you or if you "wanted" a D, then she would suddenly see you as unavailable to her and you would become more attractive and she would want you IMHO. I am just thinking like a female. You guys may be a DAM, but we are just plain crazy in how we think! Stop and think about this. If there is no other man in the picture, why would she want to D you? Oh, I know all those old excuses she is using, but I don't buy it. If you have not seen any of the MLC symptons in her (and I don't know that I have) then what is the deal with her? Women don't usually get a D unless there is another person, abuse, MLC, or just can't take living with no love in return. She may think you don't "listen" to her, etc., but she knows you LOVE her. So again, I ask you.......what is the real deal with her?
Talk later, Sandi
Sandi
I think part of the problem with calling her "bluff" right now is that if I sign the divorce papers tomorrow, it will be final as soon as it is filed since we are now past the 90 day waiting period.
I think I'm beginning to understand what you mean by "dropping the rope". I was actually at that point for a couple of days many posts ago. Not sure how long ago, but I will reread my threads just to figure out how I got there. I know I haven't been there in a while.
I do agree that she is just using the same stuff over and over again. I had my therapist appointment today and she agreed that I need to stop letting her lay the guilt/blame on me everytime. She had a good suggestion, which I will definitely take, of rather than focusing every moment on my long term goal of saving my marriage and bringing the family back to together to an immediate goal of the next time of have my kids, to have fun with them and not to have anything related to my situation (particularly things related to the adult relationship) be a distraction.
She really stressed that when I told her about my 7 year old and the house issue as well as how on Friday nite after I tucked the kids to bed, my 3 year old called me back into the room to give me a hug so I would feel better from being sad.
I do agree and will make it my goal for their next return home.
My therapist also said that it feels like my wife is avoiding therapy and is using me as a shoulder to cry on, which is very bizzare behavior on my wife's part. She then said that it was even more bizzare behavior on my part for ignoring my feelings and allowing. Now, I've always been confused about my feelings, but she said that it must be hurtful to me to keep getting the "pity party" dump from my wife. In thinking about it, it is. She said it was very disrespectful of my wife to disregard my feelings by continuing to do that, as well as how she is hurting the kids by tearing apart the family.
Sorry for the tangent, but this goes back to what is the deal with my wife. In the beginning a few people here thought she was going through a mid life crisis as she was going through the pity party all the time of how she wasted 10 years of her life being miserable and now that she has "baggage" (kids) she will never be able to find true happiness. My therapist also thinks that my wife is depressed and really needs help in letting go of anger/hurt and has a unrealistic view of how men and women relate. She thinks that comes from her father abandoning her family at 7.
I truly think my wife's deal is that I hurt her feelings by ignoring/neglecting her and taking her for granted. She said that I would never talk to her and made her feel like I didn't want her around. She said that she thought I prefered to be alone watching television or doing work on my laptop, than to be with her. She actually felt I was emotionally abusive how I withheld my love for her and became very controlling and did not respect her. I look back at it with clear eyes now of how "mean" I was to her by not only making her feel unloved, but unlovable. I didn't realize that was what I was doing (my therapist said that I suffered from mild depression as well when I got overwhelmed by stress at work, home and family). I get it now, but my wife says its too late. Nevertheless, my wife has an issue of forgiving and letting go. She never forgave/trusted her dad again and has the same issue with her sister from something in HS.
When we started getting serious, one of the things my wife really stressed/cried about one time was how she worried that I would hurt her (I was a player type of person back in the day and she knew it based on the girls I had dated before her). She actually made me promise.
So now my wife feels that she can't trust me enough to be vulnerable with me again and has closed off her heart so she can't love me like a wife should love her husband. She says that every time she sees me she still feels hurt. Either because she remembers the hurt or it hurst when she sees that I get it now, but didn't back when she actually cared or would have made a difference.
She actually slipped once of how she's frustrated that she's not going to be the one to enjoy the time with me now that I get it as she knows that I'll just move on and find someone else.
She has very low self esteem so I think that also weighs on her as she thinks that once she comes back, I will just go back to the way it was and she will be hurt again. When my therapist/marriage counselor suggested that I was suffering from a mild depression, my wife was very animated as to what if it comes back. It took filing for divorce to snap me out of it, is that something that she will have to do everytime it comes back. I think the final nail in my coffin was when one of her friends husband, who suffered from depression, made her and their daughter's life miserable, right up the point he committed suicide at 46.
So in short, I think my wife has been very badly hurt by the person she made herself totally vulnerable to and is now afraid of experiencing that pain again. She even said how she sees I've changed, but know that I will not be perfect and feels that the first time I slip up, no matter how sleight, it will crush her. I know she needs help. I can't do the work for her. She does. I just don't think she's in a place where she will/can/wants to.
That's just my humble opinion....
So with all that extra "info", what should I do?
I feel that she's not bluffing and will actually be hurt when I say that I've given up as well and want a divorce. She had said that was one of the two reactions she expected from me when she filed. The other would be I would get so angry that I would be violent (where I have NEVER been violent and only raised my voice less than 5 times in the 12 years we were together). She was totally not expecting that I would want to work on it as she felt I gave up loving her years ago. She said that she thought about withdrawing the divorce when I told her that I wanted to work on it, but said that she was just too afraid of getting hurt again.
But then again, I'm just a DAM so what the heck do I know.....
Me 41 WAW 36 S 3&7 M 10 yrs W files D 1/9/09 W moves out 4/18 Lost job 6/15 New job 7/27 Disc PA 8/10 (started Nov 2008!) Confronted 8/11 Admits PA & appologies for hurt 9/11 Lost Job 11/13
Have you really given up or is that only a reaction to how bad this hurts?
Me 45, H 46, S 23, M 26, Together 30, Bomb 6-2-08, S 6-19-08; H left 12-29-08. H home 12-09, Still MLC in 2012! Me- I have my big girl panties on. Bring it.
I think what sandi means by calling her bluff isn't to be the first one to sign the papers. Just do what you're supposed to have been doing all this time...GAL.
Right now every interaction you have is with your W and how you should act or not act around her. And she calls ALOT! So, you need to detach more. More meaning not to let her suck you into her way of confusion.
Why not be honest and tell her that she cannot rely on you being the one to make her happy or unhappy? The "hurt" that she keeps heaping on you is really getting pretty old. I mean, unless you beat her, there is no hurt. The mis-communication that you've been going through is what couples do. Or rather, men and women.
NO ONE is going to be so in tuned with their partner that they know exactly what the other wants. Especially if the other partner doesn't say what they want in the first place. Stop beating yourself over the past "hurt". You see she's already sucked you into her way of thinking.
There is no "hurt". Because if it was that bad, then she wouldn't be calling you to begin with.
"So now my wife feels that she can't trust me enough to be vulnerable with me again and has closed off her heart so she can't love me like a wife should love her husband."
Trust you with what? She trusts you with the kids, she trusts calling you, for god's sake, she trusted you touching her before she left. She has no idea how a "wife should love her husband" because she doesn't know. It probably stems back to her childhood where her mom was waiting for her dad to come home all those years. She was probably waiting too and was expecting him to be this perfect Prince Charming to her mom. Well she's looking for that in you and no one can ever live to such a high expectation.
The only reason I think it's an MLC is because according to the research, that's the time when men and women re-evaluate their lives and even come to grips with un-resolved issues in their childhood.
During that period, they get emotional (cry, angry, depressed, etc.) because they don't understand what's going on inside them. Think of a teenager. Some have a ton of angst, others are passive, while others discover what their limits are. It's the same way with MLC and I see your W going through all that.
Fact is you can't analyze her because she doesn't understand herself. Only thing you can do is hold on while she goes through this journey alone. You can, however, gently guide her in the right direction if you do it in the right way.
Sandi's been great at helping me with that.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
