my story... finally

[stillloveshim]

I mean No Way it won't last that long and you do have the very strong upper hand here. You can do this.

[futureunknown]

Hope is a dangerous thing. You know what they say about Pandora's box? After all the evil in the world was let out, last to come out was hope.

Thank you very much for the encouragement though. My heart is so weary, and wary. I just need to work on detaching better, being a great father, having a PMA, and living my life. I won't burn any bridges, and my W and I have an undeniable connection, even separate from the kids.

We'll see...

[bluerain]

Hope is a dangerous thing, but you know what? I dont regret having hope for my M at all. No matter what happens in my M, it gives me some comfort to know that M is really important to me. And to know what I was willing to do to preserve to it. I tried everything, from turning into a quivering, hopeless sap, which didnt work at all, to DBing, which not only made me stronger through this, but I think that the principles are useful in a lot of situations in life.

I agree with SLH, this A wont last, they never do. You will recover from this much easier than she will. You keep doing the right thing, and when you look back you will have no regrets. She will be recovering from this for years longer than you will.

I dont think that you should be "allowing" this to go on. If she is doing something that you wouldnt approve of one of your friends doing, dont allow her to do it either. If she is being a bad friend, then dont be her friend. You are her H, and you have the kids to keep you two in touch. If she isnt friend material right now, keep it all business. Dont treat her any better than you would a aquaintance.

I really focused on not being the one responsible to doing any more damage to my M, so I think that its good that you are committing yourself to not burning any bridges.

I am feeling the connection to my H a lot right now. We are best friends, even after everything that has happened. Thats why we picked these people to spend the rest of our lives with. Hopefully with patience we can figure out how to foster these connections again.

[futureunknown]

My W agreed to go out to dinner with me this weekend. I have no idea how it's going to go.

She sent me a text message yesterday that she MIGHT be up for going out for a few beers Sunday afternoon. Last night I happened to be on a dinner cruise on a local lake for a business dinner and I sent her a message back that the lake was gorgeous and that in a different reality she would be there with me. I also said I'd agree to 50/50 custody and for her not to worry. I ALSO said that if we had food with the beer that would be dinner and offered a time and place. I was shocked I was able to squeeze so much into one text message.

She didn't send a reply right away, but she eventually did. She said ok to dinner and also said she hopes I realize that she grieves every single day for the loss of the life she hoped to have with me. I replied simply "Me too". I've been considering sending a follow up message, but I don't know. I think I should stay dim and see how the dinner goes.

Ok, here's something I just don't know about. My W has now indicated a couple times how she feels I don't really care about her because I haven't ever asked anything about her R with OM, which is of course very important to her. She told me our MC encouraged her to tell me everything, but that she couldn't do it, and then said "Why haven't you ever asked?" I said "I've never felt it was any of my business." She didn't have a reply to that. Even though it might rip my heart out, again, if I truly love her, should I ask her to tell me everything? I think she will tell me if I ask. Is it possible it could actually facilitate some healing? At least the walls would be down.

Sometimes I think my situation requires a somewhat different approach. If I follow MWD advice and track what has gotten results, it's actually been when I pursue a little bit that's worked. I know my W had a couple major dissatisfactions with our M. One, she didn't feel pursued as a woman, at least not in the way she wanted. I agree I failed with that. Two, she didn't feel our R was intimate enough emotionally, and I failed at that also. She is getting both in spades from OM.

For me to turn her back my way, I think I need to do both of those things, but they are both totally counter to DBing. That's my dilemma. I have pursued her a little bit in the past, and it did seem to get results. She likes the attention. Sure, it's cake eating at this point, but I really don't think she'll EVER give our R another chance unless she sees she can get what she was missing. I need to allow the cake eating for a while to show her things can be different. Usually with an A involved, the LBS wouldn't even have such a chance, but since the OM is so far away, my W is alone all the time, and so is receptive to such attention. I've never seen anyone else take that approach here. Am I deluding myself? Do I need to think "outside the box"?

Of course all this requires that I hang in there and keep hope alive.

[MrBond]

I think it's a little sadistic of her to ask you why you haven't asked about her R with the OM. She's probably doing it to get your "approval" of it so she doesn't feel guilty any more. I mean she did say that she grieves at the loss of your future together.

Puh-lease! What kind of a response is that? I feel sad for myself even though I made the conscience decision to leave (because I was sad), tear your heart out and stomp on it, then jump in bed with another guy.

If chasing after her is what you think is going to work, then that's up to you. I would have as little contact with her as possible so that she isn't being validated for her behavior. I can see validating the things she saw as what went wrong in the M, but not validating (approving) her acting that way towards you.

The same goes for when the WAS asks to be friends after they've cheated on the LBS. I mean what planet are they from?

[Coach]

Ok, here's something I just don't know about. My W has now indicated a couple times how she feels I don't really care about her because I haven't ever asked anything about her R with OM, which is of course very important to her. She told me our MC encouraged her to tell me everything, but that she couldn't do it, and then said "Why haven't you ever asked?" I said "I've never felt it was any of my business." She didn't have a reply to that. Even though it might rip my heart out, again, if I truly love her, should I ask her to tell me everything? I think she will tell me if I ask. Is it possible it could actually facilitate some healing? At least the walls would be down.

I think the women can give you better perspective than me but here goes.

1. She wants to point out what she is needing.
2. She wants you to man up - she won't bring it up, you won't ask and it very much is your business.
3. I think she wants you to stand up for her. Set some boundaries and tell her that she is your W and that you want her to start acting that way. (This is you acting like a H.)
4. You can show her what she is missing without pursuing.

How:

She said ok to dinner and also said she hopes I realize that she grieves every single day for the loss of the life she hoped to have with me. I replied simply "Me too".

"Me I'm not grieving, I am working on becoming the best FutUnk I can. I realised some of my mistakes and am working on them for myself. If you give me the chance I will be the man you need."

Don't agree with her! Show her you are growing, thriving and living thru this stressful, difficult and painful period. Don't match her moods this is a opportunity to lead. You can handle it.
Strength and Honor
Coach

[stillloveshim]

Go get your woman. Fight for her.
Just don't do anything you aren't proud of or you aren't willing to do for the rest of your life. For example, if she wants you to dress like a monkey and throw banana's at the neighbors--I say don't. Also, she wants you to clean the house everyday so it shines and she means EVERY DAY, well that's just not possible.

[futureunknown]

That's why I love this board. 2x4 whack when you need one!

I've also been perplexed as to why she would want me to ask. Talk about a selfish position. She has a death grip on this belief that she did nothing wrong. She didn't feel loved in our M, so she went elsewhere. The fact that she lied, used me, manipulated me, and betrayed me are all irrelevant details. I made it clear I would change myself in major ways to make our M what she wanted, but she chose to abandon our M and break up our family.

I know her friends are supporting her view that she is justified in doing what makes her happy. They see her with the affair "glow" and are envious. My behaviour hasn't exactly been consistent that I have a problem with what she's doing either, except that I never ask about it, and now she wants me to do that. Maybe she just wants that last bit of validation to let go of her guilt.

As for not having contact, our kids require us to have quite a bit of contact, but I can try to stay quite dim. This dinner we have planned will be our first time alone together since our separation five months ago. Maybe it's a mistake, but I'm curious how it'll go.

stuck808, I hate the idea of chasing after her. I agree with you 100%, but I'm at a loss for what else to do. I know she'll never come back unless she thinks there's real chance for things to be different. I need to let go and move on, but I want to leave her with the nagging feeling that maybe things really could be different.

[futureunknown]

Thank you Coach for jumping on here. I can see opinions here are as conflicted as in my own head! I'm really stuck as you can tell, and I think I could be at a crucial point. The fact that she agreed to have dinner with me after we had a big argument is important, I think. Although arguments can be damaging, at least there's some emotion between us.

1. She wants to point out what she is needing.
2. She wants you to man up - she won't bring it up, you won't ask and it very much is your business.

I agree with you. It's time this came out in the open. It doesn't have anything to do with validating what she did. It has to do with her wanting me to KNOW her.

3. I think she wants you to stand up for her. Set some boundaries and tell her that she is your W and that you want her to start acting that way. (This is you acting like a H.)

If this is true, it's definitely not at the surface. Maybe deep down she'd have respect for this declaration.

4. You can show her what she is missing without pursuing.

I mostly agree with this too. Pursuing or chasing implies I'm trying to catch her. I just need to declare to her my truth and make it clear I'll thrive regardless of what happens between us.

"Me I'm not grieving, I am working on becoming the best FutUnk I can. I realised some of my mistakes and am working on them for myself. If you give me the chance I will be the man you need."

Don't agree with her! Show her you are growing, thriving and living thru this stressful, difficult and painful period. Don't match her moods this is a opportunity to lead. You can handle it.

I agree, my simple response was insufficient. Fortunately, everything else I've done since our separation began, and even before that, gives the right message loud and clear. I haven't shown her my grieving. She's seen me be strong, and grab life by the horns. I think her respect for me is higher now than it has been in many years.

My gut tells me I need to fight for her. Me just validating my failures in our M is not enough. She's going to need to see me act in a fundamentally different way toward her, and I want to. I've been wanting to for years, but our M was stuck in an endless cycle of resentment, until this A and separation blasted it to smithereens. I have already shown her a very different side of me. She already commented that she likes how I'm changing. That's what's been working. I need to keep that up, and step it up. Will she get an ego boost that she has two men wanting her? Probably, but why does that bother me? My pride will be far more satisfied knowing that I did everything I could to save my M, rather than go dark and act like "If you don't want me, fine, I don't want you or need you either." That's been my attitude so far.

She hates that we are separated. Deep down she hates that she's having this A. She hates that our kids now split time between us. I need to show her a way out.

[futureunknown]

The dinner is done. If it wasn't for the fact that it was with my W who left me and is having an A, I would say it was an excellent date. We ended up having two separate dinners, since we sat and talked for over four hours.

I was totally non-reactive, and the great repore we've always had was present in all it's glory. We discussed our past, both positive and negative. We relived some of our most cherished memories, and discussed some of the ways we hurt each other. I owned my faults early in our R, which I know were key to the pain she carried throughout our M. There was no anger anywhere in our vicinity the whole time.

Unfortunately, my W is steadfast in her belief that our M was "more wrong than right", that she's much happier now, and that there's no going backward. I agreed backward is not an option, kind of implying that "forward" was undefined.

We grieved the fact that our kids are now relegated to seeing us each half the time. We discussed our plans for future holidays somewhat, which was the most painful part of the night.

She complimented me greatly on who I've become, and indicated that if we didn't have the history we have, she'd be very intrigued by me, and even intimidated, in a good way. She said I will be a force to be reckoned with when I decide to start dating, if I haven't already.

I complimented her on the changes she's made, and as per my declaration above, I didn't hold back in anything I wanted to say, including some fairly shocking things. She was initially uncomfortable with my frankness, but grew to enjoy it as the evening went on, and especially as we got a little drunk.

We did not talk about her A, other than the fact that she knows I am very hurt, and she doesn't know what the future holds with OM.

She has clearly moved on entirely, and there is no hope of reconciliation, at least not in the next couple years. After that, I don't care what anyone says, it's impossible to predict anything with any certainty. Regardless, I can't put my life on hold. I have to move on.

I am feeling considerable pain right now, as I face my future without my W, at least not as my W. The hard part is, and I discussed this with her, that the time we need to spend together due to the kids does make closure difficult. We left open ended how much we will be doing together moving forward. I am dreading the thought of even less time with my kids.