We just past the 6 week "anniversay" of where she moved out and 5.5 months since she filed for divorce.
This was a tough week. I think when she called two weeks ago on Friday crying about being sad I got myself more hopeful. Since then, she told our 7 year old that there was a possibility that she wasn't coming back. And this morning, she called all upset that my 7 year old told her that she had to move back in or we would lose the house. She asked why I told him that. I told her that it was the truth - he saw I was looking at houses and I told him that with mommy not living with us, I can not afford to keep the house, but we would pick one out together. She said why didn't I tell him that I was just moving. I told her because that wasn't the truth.
I said that I needed to plan for the fact that she isn't coming back. I told reminded her that she said it as recently as 2 weeks ago. She said she doesn't remember saying anything like that. I told her it was 2 fridays ago when she called and reminded me that she still hadn't changed her mind. She said that wasn't the same as not coming back. She said it was that she still hadn't changed her mind of needing time and space to think if a divorce is what she wants.
She then said, everyday she feels more strongly that it is, but as these types of communication issues continue, she really feels that things haven't changed. I told her that I'm not surprised as we aren't working on it. She says that "I can be an adult" and call her when I have something on my mind. I told her that I was trying to give her the time and space that she wanted so I'm confused of what she expects from me.
She then shifted into how I was starting to repeat myself so if there wasn't anything new, she was going to say goodbye. I told her that we could try and talk to tonite (don't know why I said that, nor do I know what I'm going to talk about).
Then I went to church.
I shouldn't have answered the call, but then she would have just been stewing the entire time about what my 7 year old said. I guess I shouldn't have said anything to him, or should have just said we were moving. Any thoughts?
Volleydog, on thread #9, before it got locked, posted "Sorry CIPA BUT from you last few posts it looks to me like you are using your kids to guilt your W into coming back...Bringing up the fact she didn't call your S back, the thing about the house. If your son is upset she didn't call him back let him tell her WITHOUT ANY pushing by you. Telling your son you have to move because of their Mom even if it's the truth makes her out to be the bad person and you don't want that, I hope."
I'm not sure if that's what I was trying to do. Maybe I'm starting to become resentful about this entire situation and I'm blaming her. I don't know.
Another thing that she said during the call right before church is that she the feeling that this is the right thing to do is getting stronger and stronger everyday. Not what I wanted to hear.
Me 41 WAW 36 S 3&7 M 10 yrs W files D 1/9/09 W moves out 4/18 Lost job 6/15 New job 7/27 Disc PA 8/10 (started Nov 2008!) Confronted 8/11 Admits PA & appologies for hurt 9/11 Lost Job 11/13
Well, I'm afraid that Coach is going to russel up the DB caravan for this one and it won't be for a DB GAL road trip
My wife called me to follow up on the call this morning. She wound up in tears of how she is still so hurt and can't ever see trusting me with her feelings or in my changes or that I will ever truly just get her and that she just doesn't want to be my wife any more. She knows that I am becoming a better person with my changes and knows that I am a great dad but just can't be vulnerable enough to be my wife.
I told her that I feel that hurt that she was feeling, and asked if there was anything that I could do.
She asks that I at least recognize her as the mother of the children and treat her nicely, not cold/mean.
I told her that if we do wind up divorced, I will be cordial and courteous, but will not be able to be friends with the woman I love and not be able to show her that.
She then said that it will be for the best of the kids if I could be. She then went on about how she just can't doesn't have any feelings for me that way anymore. She says that she doesn't hate me, but just doesn't have the feelings a wife should have for a husband.
I said that she didn't have those feelings when we first met, but they grew. She responded that was before she had all the hurt. I told her that I can understand how holding onto the hurt will prevent the feelings or trust from getting established.
She said that right now she would trust a stranger more than she could trust me with her feelings. She said that the past is the best indication of how a person will be and in the past I clearly shown how I couldn't be trusted with her heart/vulnerability.
I said that was the past and this is the present and I've changed.
She said that we had talked about it in the past, but I didn't change then so what would make her think it will be different in the future. She said that we tried in the past when we talked about it and it didn't happen.
I told her that I didn't understand it back then like I do now. She said that there wasn't any feelings left and she can't find a reason to try now.
I told her that talking to a therapist has really helped me understand and that she had mentioned about talking to a therapist a couple of weeks ago. She said that she still hasn't had time to go/find one (guess she isn't ready to do the work). I asked her about Weds' appointment and she said it was for a chiropractor.
She then went into how she still hasn't found a reason to change her mind and how if I had just signed the paper back in January, we would have been done right now/today. She said that she even when we are doing family things together, she doesn't have the feeling of how good it is to see me or to see me again.
She said that all I've done so far is confuse her because I've said I've changed but I still don't get her. When I asked what she meant by get her, she said understand how she feels or what she wants/needs. I asked her how was I suppose to do that when we don't talk about it. She then said that I should call her to find out or if I don't understand what she wants.
I told her that I was trying to respect her time and space so, as I told her the day she moved out, was that I wasn't going to call her and that she can call me if she wants to talk. She said that's not what she meant by time and space, she didn't want to me to call and ask her for lunch and/or dinner every nite.
She then went into how I had all those years where I didn't show her any attention and neglected her. I told her that she has my full undivided attention now. She said I have a confusing way of showing it.
She was still crying through all this. Then I told her that I had wanted to call her, but didn't because I was trying to respect her time and space. She said that was just like the past, how when she was around, I wouldn't talk to her and just ignore her and acted like I didn't want her around or go out on a date.
I then said that I can't explain why I did acted that way in the past and appologized for it already. I then told her that I was confused as to what she wanted or was expecting from me.
She said that she wanted me to treat her the way I want to. Then I told her that I wanted to treat her as my wife, but she said she didn't want that.
So then I said that I would love to spend time with just the two of us to try and get to know each other again. She asked, like a date. I said yes and she said the word date scares her. I then said how about just lunch to chat. She said that we could but it's not what she would really want to do so she wouldn't want to give me false hope. ACK!!! I said if that's the case, that would just add to the hurt then.
She then went on about how I should just call/email/text her whenever I wanted to, like she does. I then asked what if that includes asking about lunch. She said that I could if I wanted to. I then suggested perhaps it would be better if she contact me then. She said that it wouldnt' be on the top of her priority.
I was starting to get frustrated so I wound up ending the call when she yawned by saying it was getting late.
NOT GOOD. PLEASE BE GENTLE WITH THE 2x4's
Me 41 WAW 36 S 3&7 M 10 yrs W files D 1/9/09 W moves out 4/18 Lost job 6/15 New job 7/27 Disc PA 8/10 (started Nov 2008!) Confronted 8/11 Admits PA & appologies for hurt 9/11 Lost Job 11/13
The only reason why I didn't just end the call early was because I really didn't understand about "getting her" and what she had expected me to do. I had tried the no initiating calls/contact thing for the past 6 weeks. Problem is she said that was just reinforcing more of the past. She said that she tried to contact me almost daily and I just ignored her like I did in the past. Now she says that was enough
Argh!!!!
So now what?
Me 41 WAW 36 S 3&7 M 10 yrs W files D 1/9/09 W moves out 4/18 Lost job 6/15 New job 7/27 Disc PA 8/10 (started Nov 2008!) Confronted 8/11 Admits PA & appologies for hurt 9/11 Lost Job 11/13
She said that she tried to contact me almost daily and I just ignored her like I did in the past. Now she says that was enough
DBing is best defined as follows:
Use what works, reject what doesn't work
Go back and read what you just wrote my friend and make a note of what got you favourable results and what got you unfavourable results. The further you get in this DB odyssey, the more you'll realise what works and what does not. Do what works i.e. do the things which result in drawing your wife closer to you and avoid doing things which have the opposite effect. This is easier said than done and will take lots of self-discipline but you must get a grip of yourself and give yourself and your marriage the best chance.
I have been very abusive and thoughtless in my own marriage. Whenever my wife asked why I had carried on like that I simply said "I can't explain it in a way which doesn't sound like I'm making excuses. I was wrong before and you can't defend the indefensible". During the last 18 months I have lost count of the number of times I said that - my wife still asks me this but much less frequently now.
Hope this helps - very sorry that you have to be here.
Me: 46 W: 46 T: 23 M: 20 DS12 DD11 DS5
W left: 01/28/08 Discovered OM: 02/26/08 W back for 9 days: 04/08 W returned 05/21/08 EA/PA - 01/08-07/09 W's MLC 2008-2014 (realised this much later)
Your W is still engaging in the blaming you game. You've told her time and time again what you want, what you're doing, etc. And she's still asking you "what are you doing" "I'm getting mixed signals" "It's all your fault".
Utter garbage.
It's like what sandi said, you're not a mindreader and it's especially hard when she tells you one thing and acts another.
For example, she told you it was the responsibility of the parent with the kids to have the call. Then when you did that, she didn't call, nor did she apologize the following day. That's being plain rude and selfish. What's up with her "do as I say and not as I do" mentality.
Like before she moved out...before she got into it, you should have stopped her before she went off on the blame game on you and told her "look, I'm not a mind reader. I've told you over and over again. Do you want space or not? Do you want me to pursue you or not? It's as simple as that." Or just flat out tell her that you have been getting mixed messages from her so you're giving her space and time to sort things out. That you love her very much and that you would like to be together, but this is what she asked for and you are respecting that. End of story.
In your case, your W still has not dealt with any of her anger/issues and prefers to use you as the scapegoat. Before you go beating yourself up, let me ask you this...how many times has she gone to therapy? Zero?
She's scared, mixed up and has just realized that she's alone without her kids half the time. It was her choice. But rather than accepting resposibility, she's taking it out on you.
Don't take that crap. Remember to stop her before she goes off on you. Be as compassionate as you can, but it's obvious she's mixed up because she doesn't even remember what she's been saying.
Back off a bit and let deal with herself. Put your foot down and tell her to start looking at herself rather than you being the one to solve all her problems.
All the hurt she's experiencing now is what she's doing to herself.
Stay as strong as possible.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
I can't believe you let her get away with hitting your son. Especially when it's totally out of character. There's no justification for it.
Stuck,
I would have made a bigger deal about it if she hadn't brought it up. I am "on alert" for more of it and do appreciate your concern.
Thanks
Me 41 WAW 36 S 3&7 M 10 yrs W files D 1/9/09 W moves out 4/18 Lost job 6/15 New job 7/27 Disc PA 8/10 (started Nov 2008!) Confronted 8/11 Admits PA & appologies for hurt 9/11 Lost Job 11/13
Your W is still engaging in the blaming you game. You've told her time and time again what you want, what you're doing, etc. And she's still asking you "what are you doing" "I'm getting mixed signals" "It's all your fault".
Utter garbage.
In your case, your W still has not dealt with any of her anger/issues and prefers to use you as the scapegoat. Before you go beating yourself up, let me ask you this...how many times has she gone to therapy? Zero?
I see that she's still using the blaming game. I noticed that its shifted from what I did or didn't do to how I didn't change when we talked about it during marriage counseling all last year (pre-bomb). I had tried to respond, but she had then cut me off that how I didn't know isn't an excuse. I told her that I didn't understand, a subtle difference, but I understand now and have spent time working on me so I have changed.
I've been pressing the therapy issue, more so this time where I used what was suggested in one of my other threads of talking about how therapy has helped me and reminded how she had mentioned it a couple of weeks ago. When she started saying she didn't have time nor couldn't afford it, I did tell her just let me know what I can do to help.
I do agree that until she works on herself of letting go of the hurt/past, I'm at a roadblock. When she said that the past is really the best indicator of behavior in the future, I realized that was equivalent to a death sentence. I've seen it with her behavior with her father and sister. She has always kept them at arms length. I feel like that's what she is setting me up to be - not what I want to be nor in the best interest of the kids.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
Do you want space or not? Do you want me to pursue you or not? It's as simple as that." Or just flat out tell her that you have been getting mixed messages from her so you're giving her space and time to sort things out. That you love her very much and that you would like to be together, but this is what she asked for and you are respecting that. End of story.
That was one of my key "agenda" points, to really understand what she wanted/expected from me to treat her. It almost sounded like what Sandi had suggested in thread #9, that she wants to be pursued and swept off her feet, like a romance novel. That's my connundrum right now, do I do that, totally against DB/DR principles, with the potential of setting myself up for rejection?!?!?
Originally Posted By: stuck808
She's scared, mixed up and has just realized that she's alone without her kids half the time. It was her choice. But rather than accepting resposibility, she's taking it out on you.
Don't take that crap. Remember to stop her before she goes off on you. Be as compassionate as you can, but it's obvious she's mixed up because she doesn't even remember what she's been saying.
The only thing I truly believe is that she is still hurting - I can hear it in her voice and tears. I try to be compassionate, and when she is "blaming" me, she's not going off yelling or screaming, but says it in between the tears.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
Back off a bit and let deal with herself. Put your foot down and tell her to start looking at herself rather than you being the one to solve all her problems.
All the hurt she's experiencing now is what she's doing to herself.
Stay as strong as possible.
So by back off, do you mean back off of Dark/Dim (sorry Sandi) or what? I know I can't do anything about her hurt, and I'm focusing on strengthening and making me the best CIPA I can be. I know that whether I save the marriage or not, I will be OK as a person (financially is a different story as she said that she wanted to find out what she was legally entitled to, not just what we agreed to - ACK!)
This is definitely a bizzare WAW. How many WAW's out there still want their LBS to call and chat with them and etc?!?!?!
Me 41 WAW 36 S 3&7 M 10 yrs W files D 1/9/09 W moves out 4/18 Lost job 6/15 New job 7/27 Disc PA 8/10 (started Nov 2008!) Confronted 8/11 Admits PA & appologies for hurt 9/11 Lost Job 11/13
Your W is still engaging in the blaming you game. You've told her time and time again what you want, what you're doing, etc. And she's still asking you "what are you doing" "I'm getting mixed signals" "It's all your fault".
Utter garbage.
It's like what sandi said, you're not a mindreader and it's especially hard when she tells you one thing and acts another.
For example, she told you it was the responsibility of the parent with the kids to have the call. Then when you did that, she didn't call, nor did she apologize the following day. That's being plain rude and selfish. What's up with her "do as I say and not as I do" mentality.
Like before she moved out...before she got into it, you should have stopped her before she went off on the blame game on you and told her "look, I'm not a mind reader. I've told you over and over again. Do you want space or not? Do you want me to pursue you or not? It's as simple as that." Or just flat out tell her that you have been getting mixed messages from her so you're giving her space and time to sort things out. That you love her very much and that you would like to be together, but this is what she asked for and you are respecting that. End of story.
In your case, your W still has not dealt with any of her anger/issues and prefers to use you as the scapegoat. Before you go beating yourself up, let me ask you this...how many times has she gone to therapy? Zero?
She's scared, mixed up and has just realized that she's alone without her kids half the time. It was her choice. But rather than accepting resposibility, she's taking it out on you.
Don't take that crap. Remember to stop her before she goes off on you. Be as compassionate as you can, but it's obvious she's mixed up because she doesn't even remember what she's been saying.
Back off a bit and let deal with herself. Put your foot down and tell her to start looking at herself rather than you being the one to solve all her problems.
All the hurt she's experiencing now is what she's doing to herself.
Stay as strong as possible.
Great post! Great responses to CIPA's concerns!
"Always go straight forward, and if you meet the devil, cut him in two and go between the pieces." - William Sturgis, clipper ship captain, 1830's.
