OK for men with wives having an affair, has OM...

[AFWAW]

He took a very hard line and it shook me up so much I ended the affair IMMEDIATELY. i couldnt imagine not ever seeing or speaking to my husband, ever AGAIN but i saw in his eyes - he meant every single word of it. He stood up to me and toe to toe and to give him this, I KNOW to this day he meant every single word of what he spoke; he wasnt one to say such lightly. SOME women (pls dont bash me im just saying some) NEED direction to snap them out of it and I was just such a lost soul who NEEDED to be given a hard line; it WORKED on me. I would not say it would for everyone; but in my husbands case I knew he would follow thru with this, and this was someone i knew for 20 years. I couldnt imagine for a SECOND not being able to contact him or speak to him AT ALL.

WOW!!! This is hardcore. Puppy, do you really think this could work in my sitch? This seems really drastic. Fit, if you get a chance would you take a look at my sitch in newcomers and give me you thoughts? Thanks, I'm really thinking about doing this as I don't think I would want any contact anyway with the wife if she continues to take us down this path towards divorce. I mean, why would I want to be friends with someone who I've been intimate with? I can't and won't do it.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

AF,

I can't guarantee that it would work. But I can guarantee that what you've done so far HASN'T worked, so what do you have to lose??

This is pretty much what Hooper has been trying to get you to do all along.

Puppy

[mountain_west]

I have a question for you. My W admitted having a PA in Nov of '07. She didn't admit it until Sept. of '08, when I basically told her that there was no other explanation for what was going on. For a few weeks we were communicating then she basically disappeared. She's been very distant since then. She swears there is no contact with the OM, but I'm pretty sure that isn't the case. It's nothing I can prove, but the circumstantial evidence is pretty compelling. I know that Puppy argues that without full disclosure and openness, the chance of a relapse is pretty high. (Please correct me if I am reading you incorrectly). What is the allure of continuing contact? Is it the need they meet? Is it the secrecy of everything?

I've read what you have posted here and I'm about at the point of the ultimatum. She won't file because that makes her the bad guy, but at some point don't you own up to your actions? Maybe that was two questions.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

I know that Puppy argues that without full disclosure and openness, the chance of a relapse is pretty high. (Please correct me if I am reading you incorrectly).

\

I think what I've said is that even if a wayward spouse is sincere, and wants to end their affair, that without a full no-contact/transparency plan in place, the chance of repeat infidelity is very high.

It sounds like your wife isn't even at that point.

I'll let Fit answer the rest.

Puppy

[FightingFit]

Hi Puppy, I agree with you in so many ways - I also think not all advice applies to both sexes - I might be disagreed with thats absolutely fine, but its silly to suggest men and women have the same psychology, because they dont. For a start, we KNOW for a fact that men and women think and feel VERY differently from each other in depression. Men on the whole are a lot more "self destructive" than women - thats why more men suicide than women and thats why men will suicide in brutal ways hanging, shooting) but women generally gentler ways (OD) its the differences of the sexes.

I do believe in the hard line but I also beleive the hard line is HARD TO DO, and if you DO do it then you HAVE to be prepared to live with the consequences of a few things: ONE: they might not come back and TWO: if they do, they're not back by choice but by force - and THATS what some people hate and THAT is why they disagree with you.

What they're saying is, "I want him/her to come back, not be forced back". it can act like a catalyst and it can be effective BUT ONLY in making them return - NOT IN MAKING THEM OVER THE OP. see? and therein lies a big problem, bc OFTEN, the EMOTIONAL affair continues, or after a while, it "restarts" - so you are really risking causing yourself more pain. ie when your w isnt so afraid anymore shemight just meet up with him secretly again. Just to say gbye for example, or sorry, or have a sob. BAM we're back to the clandestine affair... so your opening yourself up to that, by taking the hard line.

INTELLECTUALLY, I can understand very much why tons of men and women would prefer to do the DB'ing and hard work hoping to have their partner return on their own and wanting them back. EMOTIONALLY, I think giving the hard "ultimatum" might be a choice a person needs to face, eventually; you can only DB for so long bf your being a patsy and not taking care of you. I think letting it go on for more than 6 months (if he/she hasnt yet left you) is really, really stupid. they're truly walking over you. BUT I WOULD SAY, if they have LEFT the house, go back to the DB if you want success - they've already exited. No ultimatum is gonna work NOW.

however having said allll of this every person is a precious unique gift from god and none of us can be read etc, there are sitches that need special treatment and special consideration, there are also gentle souls who just cant stand the idea of conflict or risk bc they love their partner no matter what, personalities and belief systems all apply theres no right or wrong.

The only guarantee I can TRULY GIVE YOU IS THIS: if you FAIL in the end, you will always secretly wonder if it had been any different should you have chosen the OTHER way! thats life. I hardlined my H, it failed, of course NOW I wish I'd DB'D him! so wahtever choice you do or COME to you have to decide "I refuse to look back at this and regret it I did the best I could at the time". and forgive your 'failure'.

everyone regrets an affair - EVERYONE - and this is true even for those rare ones who stay together - they always end up "lying" by omission on how they met.. what does that tell you. SHAME.

[FightingFit]

FF,

You're right about me feeling like a loser. I truly believe that at the moment, there does not appear to be any light at the end of the tunnel. I love my wife more than anything, I miss my children, I do not have any family for support, therefore I feel very insecure, isolated and lonely.

I just see my wife with her new figure, new clothes and new lifestyle, living in the marital home I re-built and decorated, and it is really getting to me. She is going out with friends and having a great time, while I am still in utter turmoil and am hurting so badly. I know I must forget her and concentrate on me and the children, but it is impossible to try and forget the one person who has been a part of you for 15 years. The one person I adore but never told her often enough, the person I neglected over the years.....

I go to the gym, I try and get out but it is difficult as most of my friends were OUR friends and they knew my wife before me. I am trying to occupy my time with other things but I am finding it tough as I am suffering from depression and its hard to get motivated.

Thanks again FF, I know I cannot say or do anything to my wife that makes any difference, I just have to look at me but even now all I can think of is my wife and what she is up to.

Does being more of a man ie. making decisions that she does not like but I need to make for the sake of my own self respect make a difference? I have enabled her to take this course of action (divorce) without much fight from me for fear of her pulling even further away. Would she think more or less of me if I stand my ground on something I feel is important?

Its pretty normal to lose all or most of your friends in a breakup. I lost most first, then ALL. its horrible but it happens; I found myself it really wasnt bc of them taking sides, it was bc I didnt want to BE around anyone who knew "us" or "what happened", and then I ended up unable to make "new" friends bc I wasnt in a place to BE a friend. I think a long period of lonliness and isolation is par for the course; your depressed, your beaten, and your anxious. It isnt a reflection on YOU as a a bad thing, its just the way it is. It wont always be that way. You will eventually make new friends, especially when you get a new job. Do yourself a favor with that - dont talk about your SITCH with them. bc you'll end up leavin them behind. Just be brief/factual in talking to new people about it, not full on telling the story. bc later on we tend to avoid those people (not their fault; its just we were in a bad place then and dont want to be reminded.)

I personally think you have nothing to lose in telling your w that you oppose the divorce and dont want one, but do so strongly and factually not emotionally as in "I love you and want you back and dont a divorce". be more like "Ive let you go this far with this but I want you to know, I am very against this breakup and very against a divorce and wish you'd have given more time to working things out with me". she'll probably just say she doesnt care bc she wants it, but you can just reiterate - "I know and I cant stop you but I want it on record especially for OUR KIDS, that I didnt WANT this and I was AGAINST this". be proud of that! it certainly made a diff for my kids. Kids hate divorce. Its nice to know at least ONE of you was opposed to it and fought the good fight. its a good example too. (as long as its not done with blame.)

Keep in your mind at ALL TIMES that "all you have worked for" isnt gone - and you can and WILL regain what you had. it might take a long time and it might be alone or with a different person but you will once again have those things. Instead of feeling emasculated try realising THIS: look at all you have GIVEN HER, in this marriage, DESPITE the fact she was the one who broke up with YOU. its a measure of what kind of MAN you are to be so generous an giving, you should be PROUD of yourself in this. If she doesnt realise she should be grateful, then thats her own affair; you do and you know you can TRULY have nothing on your conscience in this breakup. you treated her well you were generous and you tried hard to rebuild it. At least you can say "I did EVERYTHING I could". this means you will sleep better at nights beleive me. the pain wont go for a long time but the pain of self blame WILL.

WHen thinking of her with the OM, keep at all times in your mind, this isnt your wife ANYWAY. shes remade herself, reinvented herself. he hasnt got what YOU had he has a different person altogether. THEIR relationship is v different. she probably like to say "she can be the real her, with him". let it go. the person she is, for a start, might not be anyone you'd want, anyway, in reality. if you could get past the fact she has the same body and face and you have a shared history, and just LIVE with her today as she is RIGHT NOW, you might find yourself very unimpressed.

As the one left its easy to get caught up in the idea of ALSO reinventing yourself from scratch as it appears THEY did and are DOING so great, but personally, I find that fake and untrue. keep being yourself bc frankly, you lose so much of yourself ANYWAY during this that if you go about trying to be different as WELL, you'll wake up one day wondering who the heck you are! you'll come out of all this very different ANYWAY without trying. a better man a stronger man. a more compassionate man, who truly has something to give a woman - her loss.

[FightingFit]

I have a question for you. My W admitted having a PA in Nov of '07. She didn't admit it until Sept. of '08, when I basically told her that there was no other explanation for what was going on. For a few weeks we were communicating then she basically disappeared. She's been very distant since then. She swears there is no contact with the OM, but I'm pretty sure that isn't the case. It's nothing I can prove, but the circumstantial evidence is pretty compelling. I know that Puppy argues that without full disclosure and openness, the chance of a relapse is pretty high. (Please correct me if I am reading you incorrectly). What is the allure of continuing contact? Is it the need they meet? Is it the secrecy of everything?

I've read what you have posted here and I'm about at the point of the ultimatum. She won't file because that makes her the bad guy, but at some point don't you own up to your actions? Maybe that was two questions.

Some are gonna disagree here but I think if the person who had the affair claims to end it, but then goes all secretive, its probably still going on, even if just emotionally (via emails etc from work and so on.) is your wife emotionally unavailable to you?? and is he accessible to her? if so... then yes, I would DEFINITELY be highly suspicious there is still some kind of contact. When a person is in an affair even if emotionally (and BELIEVE me, an affair often drags on for a year or more via contact! an its SOO destructive) they are not emotionally available to YOU, but they think they're doing a terrific job hiding that from you.... they really do. If you act suspicious they will call you paranoid and get all on their high horse but realise this: THEY cheated on you and its THEIR responsibility to you to act clean and transparent if THEY REALLY WANT YOU BACK and REALLY WANT THIS TO WORK.

Ok so what I am trying to tell you is this: you can say to wife, "even if its OVER, your behaviour is SO withdrawn and SO secretive that it tells me you are unavailble emotionally to me; this is either bc your still "in love" with him or bc you are NOT in love with me... and if your not in love with me, then logic tells me you might be holding a candle forh him". this is a logical point of view and NOT unreasonable. I seen a lot of advice here saying to be patient and tolerant during the 'after the affair' phase and that IS true, but only up to a point: if after 12 months the secrecy is still going on your going to have to face some facts and ask some tough questions.

That is why hardlining is hard - bc if you do it, its MORE LIKELY that this is exactly what is going to happen. almost certainly WILL happen. the OP remember, is in love with your spouse and they dont want to lose them, so they wont give up contact with them easily - and contact is draining your marriage. the straying w or h will justify it to thsemlves saying they ended it and they are trying - but IN REALITY THEY ARE BEING V SELFISH, and keeping their 'options' open, and you might need to address that - in a very FACTUAL and non accusing way not in an emotional way. bc she might not have even really stopped and thought that thru, how selfish it is; mostly you dont til its all done and dusted. Having someone point out to you some hard home truths isnt wrong, its a strong thing to do. just dont do it from your anger, jealousy or emotions, but as observations regarding her behavior.

No I dont think the attraction is the 'cheating'. Not by that stage anyhow, after admitting it. I think the attraction is the DRAMA and I cannot say that ENOUGH. life is boring! life is humdrum! this person adores you and waits on your every word. WHO doesnt want to be ADORED????

But that once again is something you could point out to her factually - that her feelings for the OP are based on romantic love that never got a chance to mature into what YOU TWO have, and that kind of romantic love 1) cannot last and 2) would change, if she ever DID get with him. She'll say 'she knows all that', but I tihnk in the depths of romantic angst, its easy to daydream it away and pretend. Even those who KNOW in their minds it would never really work out still have this ROSY GLOW about the OP and probably always will in a way, bc THEY NEVER had to see their 'bad side' did they?

[FightingFit]

SO WHAT CAN CAUSE AN AFFAIR IN A WIFE...

I'm going to talk about my sitch, bc well, its what I know. I was a child bride and a virgin. a very GOOD wife. Three kids, never even LOOKED twice at another man.

I seem like an unlikely candidate to cheat dont I. But it happened. Lets look at what made that happen - and no, before you ask, no it was NOT sexual curiousity or bc I hadnt been with another man. Not one single bit.

I WAS ANGRY.

thats it. thats why I had an affair and I think thats why a lot of people have affairs, men and women alike. I was very, very angry at my husband. He let me down, and disrespected me, and I got so gosh darn angry, I thought - "I'll SHOW YOU"! very childish yes? but im just being honest.

I wont get into the specifics about WHY I was so angry, but lets just say, I finally became, "the worm that turned", and I did not care A BIT how that turned out, or how that hurt him, or how that hurt our marriage. I picked a man, and i chased after him, a man my husband felt threatened over but no not a friend of his but a co-worker. He was younger than me and probably overhwhelmed by the sudden attention, I have no doubts. IN MY MIND, it was about just SEX and getting some "revenge" on my ex for being such an AHOLE. I no longer felt I loved him and I felt wreckless. At the time I remember telling my mother I didnt think I loved him anymore. I was so furious. I felt quite justified!

Naturally never having done this before or even been in a relationship before... I had no idea emotions actually would come into play, and "fell in love" with my OP. No one was more surprised than I. DEEEEEP DOWN, I was still very much in love with H, and I became quite afraid then of being found out, but I also was by now in the thralls of NEW LOVE and loathe to give that up - he made me feel amazing. The sex wasnt as great as with H, but then I'd been with H 20 years; but it was great bc it was with HIM and different. Before too long he was telling me he was in love with me and wanted to be with me forever. He was willing to take flack, willing to take the kids on, willing to defend me like only a knight in shining armor could; and of course he heard all my bitterness about H, and agreed strongly I deserved SO much more.

I distanced from H and became emotionally unavailable and every single waking moment was spent in a stupor of first love, akin to a 16 yo. I thought of his smile, his eyes, his laugh, the way he talked. he was perfect. TO THIS DAY, my OP is perfect and this happened 8 years ago! why shouldnt he be, I never DID get to know the man. I never DID live with him or clean for him or have to see him in a bad mood. I only saw the LOVELY aspects of him didn't I.

After the A ended, I moved jobs etc, the contact continued via email another 12 months. A lot of chatting talking and laughing, flirting and carrying on, he carried a torch for me and I loved that. I kept that door open. I think a lot of people do. In the end tho, I was slowly reconnecting back with H and feeling v guilty, DISTANCE and TIME DO make a difference. This is why so many are willing to tolerate it, bc its true, eventually it peters out, if contact is truly NIL by physical personal contact; even emails cant keep that flame going forever. sooner or later, the OP becomes frustrated bc they arent living a full life waiting around for you. They get angry and resentful (rightfully so!) usually, imho, the OP will be the one to finally end contact if there is no physical sex happening. they see its going nowhere and have to face the fact your willing to work on your M, even if you are talking to them.

When its TRULY OVER and ashes, well the memories carry on - I carried a torch about another 12 months. I think this is common - as I said theres no 'bad' memories or a 'real relationnship' there so theres only fondness to recall. the M seems harsh and abrasive by comparison even tho H is trying so much. I wondered a lot if I would ever get over OP, and ever love H the same again.

MY ANSWER IS THIS: good people do make mistakes. good people can get themselves into bad situations thru depression and a patchy bad marriage. Its untrue that a cheater is always a cheater; some people sincerely and horribly regret their affair and would NEVER dream of doing anything like that again, due to the fallout. WHen its finally all over and the fantasy is gone, you DO look up and see what you have done and you do have major sorrow for the pain you caused. you see your selfishness and its a horrible pain bc its mostly hidden secretly, its a dreadful thing to admit to anyone. I came out of it distraught and feeling "I wasnt the same" and "would never be the same again" and I would question myself at nights, thinking, "if I did this thing, that I thought I would NEVER DO, then how do I really KNOW myself at all? maybe im capable of ANYTHING". it was a terrifying thought.

FOR ME, healing came in admitting it to everyone I knew including parents and family (H hadnt told.) I had to come clean to feel clean. a lot cant get past the pain but the truth is, confessing is good for the soul and the people who love you and know you will forgive you. if you are truly regretful they will. admitting it is a big step bc its saying "I want you to really know me". I think not enough people come clean but would if they knew how freeing it is. its nice not to hide or have a rotten secret.

Once H had his own OP and an affair, I told the kids out of a sense that they were blaming him and i wanted them to truly see mistakes happen and its not right to blame just one person. If you admit it to kids you have to do it carefully tho, knowing they're old enough (my oldest two were.) I also did so knowing it would only bite me if i didnt and yes the H tried to "out" me, only to be deflated to find I'd already come clean.

If H ever came truly clean and asked for forgiveness today he'd get it from kids and me and family. he doesnt yet realise that and isnt strong enough and some never are. thats not to say id take him back - no too much hurt there, I never deliberately hurt him for the OP the way he did me, or abandon our kids the way he did - but in a WAY, im almost glad I at least know the pull and addiction an OP can be bc its made me more compassionate.

I dont ENTIRELY regret my affair even now, bc it does define who I am today- I hated it and hated myself for it but hey, im changed and NOW accept that change. i forgive myself for it. it was dumb and happened and I will answer to god for it.

but people who fight for cheating spouses, arent weak or wrong but strong loving people who want their lives back... and I cheer for every single one of them. I hope everytime for them to get the fairtale ending. but even if it doesnt happen, thru all the pain and angst as both the person who HAD one or the victim of one, you still come out stronger. better.

an affair, a marriage breakdown, think of yourself like molten glass; you are being reshaped by life; you are being held in the flames and yuo will come out differently; but you have to beleive you will come out of those flames more beautiful. even if its not positive ending, you'll come out more complex, brilliant, and different - you will be tempered. you will be unshatterable. you can surive anything, now.

xoxoxo blessings

[FightingFit]

AFWAW, I have looked for the beginning of your sitch to read your story but couldnt find it. Only your most recent posts... im not too up on how to go about this place.

The only thing I can comment on right now just from what I have read is that you are VERY ANGRY. this is normal... but you have to ask yourself right now: even if she came back TOMORROW, where do you think all that anger over all this time is gonna go? do you really think its gonna just 'disappear'? AFWAW its not, at first it would seem to bc you'd be grateful, but let me tell you, as soon as your 'gratefulness' started to wane, and it would, that anger would still be there for you to deal with. I know this.

SOMETIMES, our sitches becomes so hurtful we have to know that no matter how much we still love h or w, the hurt has gone too far, and the anger would never really go away. you have to get to this you have to ADMIT this, bc your a FIGHTER, you are FIGHTING for your marriage, your not SEEING that if you WON, you would THEN have to fight YOURSELF an your FEELINGS of anger and betrayal...

is there anything she could do to make all that anger go away? probably, there always is, in our minds, the ones cheated on. WOULD SHE DO THAT, the answer is PROBABLY NOT. even if she came back to you, she may never fit into what YOUR mind and heart would need to release all that anger and resentment over the hurt you've gone thru.

LOOK, in MY sitch, I was furious and still am. I love him very much. I will love him til he dies. I just will nothing is gonn change that LOVE. but I dont RESPECT him and he could NEVER do all the things needed to regain that respect. Could your wife, at this stage?

ask yourself that hard hard question and if its NO, accept you love her and your sorry but then let her go. in your heart mind and emotions; tell yourself its ok, you fought a good fight and you battled hard, but you lost and sometimes thats what happens in life = we lose. it doesnt mean you wont ever love again or be loved again. i know it seems way too exhausting to bother with someone else (boy do I know) but exhaustion at the idea of letting someone new in and starting again isnt good enough to keep fighting for someone who does NOT WANT you to fight for them and could NEVER regain your respect, ANYWAY.

at this point... if you reach it... its easy to do what I did and decide to burn your bridges with butane and a flame thrower. DONT. respect WHAT YOU ONCE HAD. but walk away from what its become... and talk talk talk about it. Its ok to be in love with her. but its not ok to not let yourself move forward... you made mistakes she made mistakes, sometimes you gotta know when to let it be in the hands of god and fate and start thinking of you.

Let me say here that being OBSESSED with your h or w in this is a lot like it is for THEM with the OP... its ADDICTIVE ISNT IT.

its the DRAMA my friend bc without the DRAMA you would have nothing an your life would feel empty

how long do you want your life to be one big drama after another... you wont let go bc if you do then you have nothing else to think about nothign else to hope for nothing else to dream of nothing else to fight for.

Thats called FEAR. say "hello my old friend" and embrace it... accepting is a nothingness. but it doesnt mean you have to give up ALL HOPE. this is what we call... "walking away" and "going dark", you still love the w or h... but you choose to let the chips fall where they may and concentrate on you.

bc while your fighting for her you might not be noticing someone like me in your life, who is desperately seeking someone new to love! you wont see her bc your in your DRAMA and CRISIS.

there are many of us out there you know, and there are women out there like you just waiting and hoping, we miss each other thru the fogs of our drama in fighting... think about that some... you might think no thats not true... but it is. I thnk you need to DATE.

[MrBond]

Hi FF,

I'd like to commend you for having the strength and compassion to post this. I can see how it's healing to you in terms of your past and present situation.

I have a question. When your H laid out his ultimatum, did you change and ask for forgiveness immediately, or did you really resent him for putting you in this spot? Like, "how dare he give me an ultimatum" attitude?

Also, during the two years you were emotionally unavailable to him after the A, what was he doing? Did he try to "woo" you back or did he just let things slide back to the way they were?

My W had an EA with her boss and is now in depression. She has never apologized or even admitted it as being an A even though I found a note and her telling me she wanted to leave the family for him. Deep denial. Like you I was her only boyfriend and sexual partner. She even had this strong phobia of me cheating on her and would always ask me to swear that I would never do it because her dad walked out on her mom. Lo and behold, she ended up doing it but denied any wrongdoing despite evidence to the contrary.

I guess I'm trying to see where she's at right now emotionally since she doesn't want to tell me anything.