Need Help handling affair thats still going on

[kjensen]

THANK YOU JACK!
Haven't gone home for lunch yet. Have been reading ImLin's thread, trying keep strength to NOT bring up the zillion questions, not bring up one. I am determined to LISTEN if he decides to talk. To validate.

I think if he brings up separating bank accounts that is what we should do. I think to him it means the beginning of the end and it is my guess that he thinks its the prelude to a divorce. As one of my friends put it-it is probably the easiest part of separating to do, and easiest to reverse-no harm trying...
He still hasn't told his family about him moving out...
I have made it clear(many times) that I can forgive him and get passed stuff/A/OW and I know I can(or you're right, I wouldn't be here), so your take on why he feels the opposite makes sense.

If you have advice on this situation please chime in...
I am going to a conference in San diego over mother's day weekend. When my H originally bought himself and the OW tickets for a San diego trip in 2/09. Then I discovered this and confrotned him-he admitted to A. He broke up with OW 2 days later after nervous breakdown(didn't go on trip with her).. He switched tickets to his and my names for my conference dates(we planned to stay 2 extra days for some fun)5/7 to 5/11.
Well, tickets are still good, hotel reservations made. I'm going with or without him, although i would like to come back early if its without him so I can be with my girls on Mother's day and not in a big city by myself..I haven't brought up trip in quite awhile and H has since rekindled his A with OW(although said last night no future seen with her)..
So my questions is should I bring it up, if so, when-last minute?..What scenario would be most likely get a positive response, how should I bring it up, what framing should I use?? Any thoughts jack or anyone else out there?

[Jack_Three_Beans]

He still hasn't told his family about him moving out...

A good sign.
Don't ask why, figure it out : )

As for your question.

Just remind him that your going on the trip, as for when?
I am not that cunning. : ) Whenever you feel it is a good time...just not as you're headed toward the airport.

[kjensen]

HaHa!! No I think I would want to give a little more notice so I could come back earlier if possible...As adventurous as I'd like to be -the thought of Mother's Day in San Diego(never been there) by myself seems kind of sad and overwhelming.

I think him not telling his family is a good sign too. His parents are very judgmental, especially his Dad. He says he fears his day would yell at him and say "Get your house in order"...

So conversation this afternoon was OK. H brought up lots of different things-my actions/statements feel dichotomous and he can't resolve them. This feeling of his has merit because as I have been struggling with this situation, I have been waffling. When I feel angry or hurt(which I have expressed to H very infrequently) I have tended to lash out a bit those few times. Those episodes stick in his mind as me being mean. It makes him wonder if thats the true 'me'(after knowing me 20 years I would think he would know its not... but its his filter right now). So all newbies learn from my error and try not to waffle or lash out!

My H thinks he will be alone within a few months, without me or OW and he is trying to accept that(this he has stated is his worst fear-which makes me wonder if he isn't almost pursuing this scenario in some unconscious way)...

H thinks we've lived our whole marriage walking on eggshells around each other and that's what we'll always do.

H thinks that he has alot of anger and there are other parts of him I don't want to know, so he can never be himself around me.
I shared that I have seen and can handle the anger, I'm not sure what the other parts he's talking about are..

He was exrememly physically uncomfortable and agitated our whole lunch even though I was very calm and did active listening and validation.I don't think I brought up things unless h did first..

This conversation made me realize quite effectively what others have said about "alien abduction" in the sense that their spouses are dramatically different from their "norm". Also brings to mind that even though my H is clinically depressed, this MLC stuff really feels like an illness, something these spouses can't really help, in way, not to take away their responsibility..

H indicated that it would be nice to feel comfortable in the house, to not expect arguments/fights(again his perception is totally the opposite of mine-we have many calm discussions but H sees them as all fights), would like to believe I can forgive him and move passed the last 4 months, but doesn't believe I can.

So any thought on how, or even if, one can convey their decision to forgive-and be believed (besides the obvious-consistent behavior)? Do you think he or other MLCers perceive being forgiven as not bringing up the past and ignoring it(b/c I don't see how you can forgive without at least some discussion and creation of a joint reality of the past events.-this is the idea in book: After the Afffair...)?

Just wondering how successful LBS showed forgiveness, how their MLC spouses knew they were forgiven...
This may be premature for my situation as H still sees OW, as far as I know...

[kjensen]

Ok so more processing going on my head.

Because I've read so many books with different takes on getting past affairs and such I think I've had a hard time reconciling all the expert advice.

Here's what I've begun to understand (Aha moment!)-let me know if I'm wrong..
Even though many of us are dealing with OP and A in our spouses lives, because the animal we're dealing with is MLC, we aren't necessarily best served by the traditional expert advice( discussing/sharing feelings/working thru the affair-creating a joint 'story)..maybe this works in piecing once the spouse comes home, but I 'm not up on that part of the process yet...

So we do the DB method of distancing, doing 180's, NOT talking about the A/OP..b/c doing the traditional pushes the MLCer away.

I think I've kept being sucked into my H seeming to be normal and reasonable and I'd switch to the traditional methods. I think b/c of today, my husband seeming truly 'different'/alien that it is MLC I'm dealing with and I just need to deal with all the hurt/suspicion/grief/forgiveness on my own, by myself.

Is that a correct take on this MLC animal?-seems like I thought I had it, but didn't really until now.

[Concerned_Listener]

So we do the DB method of distancing, doing 180's, NOT talking about the A/OP..b/c doing the traditional pushes the MLCer away.

I think I've kept being sucked into my H seeming to be normal and reasonable and I'd switch to the traditional methods. I think b/c of today, my husband seeming truly 'different'/alien that it is MLC I'm dealing with and I just need to deal with all the hurt/suspicion/grief/forgiveness on my own, by myself.

Is that a correct take on this MLC animal?-seems like I thought I had it, but didn't really until now.

KJ,
I would agree with your opinion, that we can't think of our spouse as a healthy, functioning adult at this time. I think of DB in some ways like Al-Anon, which helps spouses of alcoholics to cope. We have to learn to adjust our boundaries to allow the spouse to face and work thru their issues, but also not allow their poor choices to harm us.

I heard a quote from my audio podcast "Awakening
Through Conflict" with Tara Brach. The quote was from a poet, that we must learn to tolerate the weak and the strong, because each of us will be that person at some point in our lives. I think of my W as weak, but trying to find her voice and strength, thru a combination of misguided and healthy ways.

The work at this stage for the LBS is the establishment of healthy boundaries, yet holding onto compassion. It's compassion from a distance, rather than in partnership, as we would prefer.

I think you're on the right track.

CL

[peacetoday]

K
I would also agree
The mlcer has a form of mental illness at this time
MY H has been in it for 2 years plus as I look back-
He is still alien
still very different from who he was
My brother ( who works with us and confronted H about steeeling money) told H you used to be a Choir boy--you aint one any more
so even my brother can see the difference

I like alanon concepts too..it is very similar to DB
detaching..living your life..as the alcolholic continues to drink
similar
you are definitely on the right track
continue to move forward and validate from a compassionate distance
there is nothing else you can do
they get worse...before better
peace

[kjensen]

Thanks CL and Peace.
Last night my H and I worked together to paint my D13's bedroom. It actually was nice. H even joked a bit about his perfectionistic tendencies, sang a little(always a good sign). He hugged me goodbye.
This morning I saw in his office that he'd printed my email and underlined all of the 'I feel' statements(he had more in his email than me), and had noted things that made him upset..He hasn't mentionned this to me and I certainly won't mention I've seen it. At least he read it again-and missed all of the caring words and concern...doesn't matter anyway.
Staying as upbeat as I can. I'm tired today-not sleeping well.
I guess I'll go home for lunch and H never did tell me what he wanted to do about seeing me at lunch...

[kjensen]

Been trying to keep track of small changes that may be happening ..
Haven't been distancing(avoiding him), but haven't initiated up conversations/texts/emails. I have been upbeat and 'happy'(as much as possible), acting "as if" things are normal and good.
On Tuesday and today, went home for lunch and ate with H and took a walk in the neigborhood. I kept things "light" and listened mostly. Yesterday H expressed sadness that the apartments he can afford are falling apart/not fit for living..He hasn't sent out resumes b/c he doesn't feel he can get a job with the current financial market(he is so good at what he does and enjoys it, if he would keep at it I think his business would continue to grow-all of his new clients are referrals from current/previous clients). My only backsliding kind of statement was that "if in a few months things were better he could move back home, but I didn't know if he'd be ready and that was OK."
H hasn't brought up anything about further separating so I haven't either...
H seems happier/calmer last few days, not as uncomfortable in our home.

Today we saw a house in the part of our neighborhood we've always liked, and he checked out the listing. I said I could see moving to a nearby town and going smaller not larger, he agreed but wouldn't want to fix up a house, would want to buy already remodeled/updated. I guess I saw it as a positive that he might even be able to imagine still living with me in future or be comfortable talking about homes with me(maybe that's not what he was thinking-I don't know).

Also the fact that he put money in our joint account recently from his business(first time since he moved), was a big change. I would think he'd keep all his business money for himself b/c he'll need it to keep living on his own.

he also called me last night to say he wouldn't be over early in AM and would miss seeing me before I left for work b/c he was exhausted from meeting and was just getting home at 10:30pm. He didn't need to call, so I took that as a thoughtful gesture. Maybe I'm reading more into things..its all i got for now.

H said he'd like to set a time to finish painting D's room, we planned for Sat AM since kids are gone most of day. It was nice he iniated-although its OW's weekend for her kids so maybe he'd trying to fill the void...
Its hard not to get my hopes up, but I'm trying not to..I know he is early into this journey but maybe with antidepressants and therapy getting started early he'll come out sooner?

I am finding that working on emotionally detaching is helping me tremendously. I do feel less swayed by H's neutral feeling towards me...Still want to be close all of the time, but holding back...just my loneliness speaking to me...
I'm thinking of staying at work for lunch tomorrow, so we'll see what occurs..

[kjensen]

So today broke the streak of two good days in a row.

H left me a message on my cell last night saying he left before I got home since when the girls came home they went upstairs to watch TV(not their perception, just his) so he went home. He said I should call if I wanted. It was a thoughtful gesture to let me know why he'd left. Of course I didn't get the message for hours and then I didn't call b/c it was late.

This morning H was coming in as I was leaving and I thanked him for his call last night and said I appreciated it. He was friendly and I said I'd see him at lunch.

Just back from lunch and things were OK at the start. H complimented me on the stew I'd made, complimented the sweater I was wearing. We talked about his continued lack of sleep(since A started he sleeps maybe 4-5 hours a night). I said maybe it was time to try something different and when he asked "What?" I said "Sex" and smiled..(used to work) but he said it wasn't funny- I shrugged it off.

H was gently ranting about how he doesn't like our neighbors-they never do yard work, yard work never ends...I just listened and validated. I asked him if he'd done more apartment searching-he hasn't but feels he needs to. Feels if he doesn't get a bigger place, he'll never see the girls(he sees them now and frankly, they don't want to be splitting their time between two homes). he said he didn't want to move a bunch of times and in his conversation still said something about if he moved back home...(guess its still a possibility)

He escaped to his office and I just stood outside listening to him talk. I asked why he didn't pay for groceries out of our joint account(like usual)-he said he was trying to be more independent and this was important to him. I asked how his business $ was and he said "Good." He reminded me that he'd showed me his checking account report and I said I remember and appreciated him showing me it (AND HERE IS WHERE I DROPPED THE BALL!) but I had been interested in his business credit card report.(b/c that is how he pays for stuff with the OW) OH the defenses went up the anger was palpable, the trigger had been flipped! He said his usual " I give you something then you turn around and ask for more-it never ends"...He got on the computer and said "Here I'll show it to you" and I said "No, I don't want to see it"..and I got up to leave. My last words were "H, I don't care about the money. I care about YOU!" I repeated it then scooted out of there.
The thing is-I realize now I really do care less and less about his hiding things, I think I'm beginning to detach a bit more. It does bother me about him still seeing OW and worries me that he is having unprotected sex(if he is as I assume)because of disease.
Side note: I had the embarassing task of emailing my doctor to see if I could get tested for STDs, HIV etc since H slept with me after having unprotected sex with OW-no fun!...

But, the compulsive need I had to snoop has dissipated. I'm tired of the lying and hiding and secrecy. I'm done with that game. At this point I'm waiting to see consistency in his actions-after his eruption today I wonder how far the setback will be...

Anyone have advice or thoughts?

[D Money]

A wise man once told me that a mistake is only a mistake if you know it's the wrong thing to do and you continue to do it. Learn from it and don't do it again. A lot of this is trial and error. What works for one does not necessarily work for the next. Stay upbeat and friendly to your h and continue to do what works.