That is so sad about your aunt and uncle. I can certainly understand your aunt's anger and it sounds like your uncle was a pretty special guy to stick it out through a very difficult situation. I always told my xh that if something ever happened to me where I was seriously injured and required constant care, put me in the car, block the exhaust, and get out of town. Good thing nothing ever did considering what a coward he turned out to be.
From what I have read about reconcilliation, it sounds like it is very hard on both spouses. I commend you for getting through it and I am sure that it has left your bond even stronger than before. Not that you would do it again given the choice! When you say "becoming the person I actually liked again" do you think your h returned to the person he was before the MLC or do you feel that he is now a different and better person because of his experience?
In my case, I find it hard not to only remember the person he became in 2006; arrogant, entitled, materialistic, etc. and I am not sure the old person will ever return nor that he would want him to. People who believe that xh is in a MLC think that he will try to apologize to me some day for what he has done but I don't agree.
It is starting to warm up a little but, officially Spring or not, it will snow again in April. It always does.
I do usually take my vacation in the summer and plan to this year as well. I have a friend in British Columbia who I may visit or I may try to talk another into a trip to Ireland. She has 3 children, however, so it can be hard to find someone willing to look after them for extended periods as they are all boys. Her husband died 5 years ago. This should put me in a little more debt than I need but I would like to get away.
What about you? Are you planning any vacations away with your family once the kids are out of school?
Missed your other question . . . Max is fascinated by water and splashes it all out of their drinking bowls, so Quigley usually gets me up in the morning to put more water in the dishes. I have dishes that automatically feed them breakfast and dinner. Other than that, cats sleep most of the time as a rule so they don't bother me too much unless they are taking up all of the foot room in the bed.
I like your sense of humour on the "mercy killing."
Yes, my bond with H is stronger than before, and I can truly appreciate how life and relationships require "testing" to make us stronger, and force us to examine ourselves and our needs. But, at the same time, there's still work to be done--I'm just having trouble putting a finger on what it is. I guess that's why I'm still drifting around this site.
You suggest I wouldn't do it again, if given the choice, and for a long time during the MLC I thought, if only we could have changed things in our relationship WITHOUT him having to become wrapped up in OW. And make no mistake, it still hurts that there were things he did for her that he never did for me. But I think I accept now that I might never have been motivated to make positive changes without OW. In particular, there was one day I'll never forget.
By the time it came around, my H had been in MLC for 3 years, and had gone through the passive-aggressive shutting me out, the spewing anger, and the building a materialistic, young-man nightlife for himself in the city where he was working. I had built up all sorts of defences against him in my heart, and in the ways I reacted to him. But none of them were good for me, and I felt used and devalued in a way that echoed my childhood abuse.
On this particular day, I finally got him to admit that he and the OW were more than "just friends," that he'd had all sorts of secret rendezvous with her, and that they were in constant phone contact. I cried so hard that day I had a headache for 3 days, but at the same time I really examined everything: did I still love him? was I happy with my behaviour? what changes did I need to make to my mothering, sex life, communication with others, self-love--I can't believe all the transformations I realized I needed that day. Would those changes have happened otherwise? I'm not so sure.
I believe that my H is a better person now than he was before the MLC, because he now knows he has chosen the kids and me, and because when he does have periodic feelings of inadequacy, he knows they're not coming from external sources like bosses, but are just scars from dear old mum.
I love BC, and have always wanted to go to Ireland! I notice you say "another trip," so I guess you've enjoyed at least one holiday there before? We do joke about 3 being the magic cutoff number where nobody's willing to take your kids anymore, so good luck with that! How are airfares to Ireland looking? Inside Canada never seems to be cheap.... The kids are eager to go camping, so that may be what we'll look at this summer, though the older I get, the less I care for mosquitoes, sleeping bags and pads, etc....
It is good that you are able to look back at what happened with such a good attitude and impressive that, even in the depths of terrible pain, you became aware of choices and changes that you needed to make for yourself as well. I wonder what it is that you need to put to rest?
There is another MLC board where, although there are some helpful posters, many seem to be convinced that the implosion of their marriage is solely the fault of their spouse and the OP having an affair, and that when they got "the speech" they were completely taken aback.
The first time I posted there, many of the responses were "What difference does it make if he is in a MLC, you wanted out of the marriage and are getting a divorce." "Are you just annoyed now that you found out about the lapdances?, etc." I was shocked. Just because I had reached a point where I could no longer continue in that situation, didn't mean that what happened and my confusion over the changes in my h didn't matter.
It was purely instinct that I immediately saw a lawyer and started the separation/divorce proceedings. I had no idea he was digging us into a hole financially as well as betraying me emotionally, but I wasn't going to sit around and wait for him to make decisions on my future.
Although I didn't find out about the affair until we were apart for many months, I don't blame what happened on the affair. She is a symptom, not the disease. The MLC obviously started long before he strayed and I was very aware that there was something wrong for some time. I just didn't know what to do.
I am aware that even though I could not have altered the path that my xh is on, there were areas of my marriage where I could have and should have made improvements. I hope to remember those should I ever fall in love again.
Sorry, I meant that I am hoping to get another friend (other than the one who lives in BC) to go to Ireland. Flights to Ireland are about $850 - $1100. I don't know if that is good or not.
I have been to Greece, Italy and Spain at different times and loved all three of them, although Greece was the best. Other than that, aside from a few places in the Caribbean and Cuba, I haven't travelled much. I have seen very little of Canada as, you're right, it does always seem expensive to travel to other Provinces. I would love to see Newfoundland (went when I was three but don't remember) but it's hard to hit on good weather!
CAMPING! I do not envy you that. I hated camping even when I was a rowdy teenager. I had a bear stick his head into my tent once at Algonquin Park. Luckily I was too skinny at 12 to look like a good meal so he left.
Personally, I think it's impressive that you were able to act so quickly to protect yourself from the craziness. It shows you have strong boundaries and a good sense of self-worth. I certainly wish I'd been able to set some boundaries sooner--in my case one of the lessons I needed to learn was how to keep saying "No" after being ignored. And, looking around this place, establishing and enforcing boundaries seems to be one of the biggest stumbling blocks.
It makes me sad when I see posts by people who claim that their marriages were perfect until the bomb, and now some evil wench has seduced their hapless H. A good marriage requires conscious work--so if everything was sugar and sunshine, how aware were they really of its weaknesses? On my day of realizations, I also recognized that if I chose to rail against OW, it would only be because it was less painful than fully admitting the depth of my hurt at H's betrayal. Later, I could see that he felt an instantaneous connection with OW only because she was the first woman who came along whose negative energy matched his own, and who could distract him from his depression by letting him try to rescue her from her drama. So it's healthy you were able to sidestep a lot of these mental traps.
As for making changes to how you behave in a relationship, I think identifying behaviours which haven't worked for you is the most significant first step. And chances are good that you'll meet another guy, when you're ready; I certainly hope you do! Life seems to have a way of testing all the changes we try to make (and that's especially true for the MLCer!!), which supports my hope for you.
You said the other day that you didn't think your H will ever apologize for his treatment of you. That's a painful thought, especially after all you shared. From what I've read, many do express shame or regret, often years later. The ones who don't are the miserable, broken ones who never come to terms with themselves (or are too stubborn to admit their mistakes). But if you're basing your assumption on how entitled he feels now, that could be temporary. I remember, part way through my H's MLC, wondering why I'd never noticed that selfishness was his dominating characteristic. Now, he can still become quite caught up in his own feelings and needs, so self-absorption is one of his traits, but that's balanced out by other, better traits--it's never at the negative level it was for a few years there. Would it help you move on to get an apology at some poin?
Your bear experience sounds quite terrifying, especially as you were so small still! You were lucky that night. I liked camping as a kid and teenager, and until I became a mom it was still a pretty spontaneous thing. As a mom, though, it's a totally different experience, involving far too much pre-planning, packing, and laundry afterwards, and not enough running water and comfy chairs during. Still, I guess we should let the kids discover how much they like it for themselves, because it's supposed to be a part of childhood, right?
Thank you for the compliments. I just wish the instinct to protect myself and the realization that I could not change what was happening, had made the experience less painful. When I look back over the past year, I am amazed I survived.
What has been especially difficult has been finding that the people who I thought I could depend on turned out to be the least supportive. At the same time however, I have come to appreciate the support of others where I did not expect it.
The lack of understanding or belief of a MLC has also been really frustrating. One friend basically thinks that I was married to an alcoholic philanderer with a gambling problem (investment account) and I somehow failed to see this over a 14 year relationship. Oy.
I don't see an apology ever coming from xh. Even when we were together and happy, he would always try to turn things around or say "but you did _____" rather than just give me a simple apology.
It won't make any difference in my healing. I am still having a hard time when I think about his coldness and complete lack of empathy throughout our separation and I guess what I really want is for him to feel the same pain that I have felt. He hasn't grieved our marriage or the loss of us at all and that really hurts.
I hope this is not too much detail but for the last several years of our marriage (I honestly can't remember when it started) xh appeared to have PE. Intercourse would last 1.5 minutes at the most -- no exaggeration. I made very light of it and most times we would both laugh about it, but it certainly didn't inspire me to initiate sex very often. On the rare occasion that I did actually try to address it, he would say, "I am afraid it is hurting you" (I have endometriosis) or "I thought you weren't into it." Whatever. I could not believe that he was blaming me for this instead of trying to find out if he had a problem.
I asked him in Jan when he finally admitted to the affair, and he said that it doesn't happen anymore. It was still happening when we were together and he was cheating, so why with me and not her? I can only assume that it's because he was drinking when he was with her and that would make a difference or he is lying. If he is lying, I cannot figure out what this woman is motivated by, unless she thought that he had a lot of money.
He just is not good about facing anything. He will avoid any unpleasant conversation or situation. You can actually see him shrink into himself. That makes him sound like such a coward and I don't mean to but it's true. There have been many instances over the years where I felt like I could not depend on him to stand up for me or take care of me.
I've observed in my reading that many notice selfishness in their MLC spouse. Did you notice that he was selfish before, but it became exaggerated or was this a new trait? It must be very hard to be selfish when you have kids. Maybe that is why there are fewer women who have a MLC?
The bear wasn't really that scary for some reason; he was pretty cute and mostly curious. I suppose camping is fun for the kids and something they should experience. What I remember from my very few experiences is that it always seemed like a lot of work. You no sooner finish cooking, eating and cleaning up and you have to do it all over again. And then there is the uncomfortable sleeping. I heard a comedian once say that he did not understand working all year so that you can pretend you're homeless while on vacation. Pretty funny.
The pain is incredible, so give yourself credit for having survived it. That must have been difficult, not to get support from those you'd thought would support you the most--I guess it really made you appreciate who your closest friends were? As for your friend who thinks you were clueless for 14 years, is it really possible she hasn't seen other guys around her in MLC? When my sister and I totted up the numbers, we were shocked how many we knew. Or maybe she has some reason for not wanting to believe there is such a thing? I really wish more people knew about MLC, because it affects so many lives ... and lasts far too darn long!
You know, my H was never good at apologies, and during the MLC he twisted everything that should have been an apology--or even a simple acknowledgement--back to me. That makes me see how far he's come, that he can now actually apologize.
That's interesting about the PE. The majority of MLC men do seem to have some sexual issues. In my H's case, he could no longer ... finish, pre MLC. (He's fine now, so a lot of it must have been depression-related.) I understand that the initial novelty may result in better sex with new partners, but that doesn't last. And on the whole, most affairs result in pretty bad sex. So, yeah, OW's motivations are questionable.
I know that in my case the abuse impacted my ability to be sexual in unexpected ways, and it's taken me a long time to figure out how I've unconsciously tried to "protect" myself with behaviours I'm now trying to change. I suspect some of your H's problems could be similarly motivated and believe me, it's so hard to change issues you aren't and don't want to be aware of. If that makes sense.
About the selfishness, I think H always had the potential to be that way, but as long as he was in love, etc, he generally wasn't. He was a great dad up until the MLC, then he started avoiding and criticizing the kids and quite clearly wishing he hadn't had them. Poor little things. When women have MLCs, I believe they're just as apt to ignore the kids and parent them poorly, at least for a time. I did read recently in the paper that researchers have determined that girls have a much higher rate of overcoming highly negative childhood situations than boys do, and wondered if that was why fewer women seem to have MLCs. On the other hand, for every MLC man, pretty much, there is an almost equally messed up OW, so I don't know that they come off that much better. (Although, many do seem to be serial OWs, reducing their ranks.)
I like the camping joke--I may even get to live it this year!
I only know of a few instances of MLC in real life. Perhaps because the abandoned spouse doesn't talk about what really happened to their marriage in the hopes that their spouse returns?
The friend is a man who is in his mid-fifties. Does not believe in a MLC but thinks that xh's childhood abuse caused all of his issues and believes it is amazing that our marriage lasted as long as it did. My last C was of the same view actually. They both believe that xh is damaged and unable to really emotionally attach to anyone, and will continue with this behaviour in his relationships for the rest of his life.
As you believe, my C also said that the PE was due to the childhood abuse. I believed him initially but if you are both correct why is xh not having the same problem now? His relationship with the OW is in the 15th month now, if I am to believe what xh told me about when they met.
My xh was always pretty selfish, even when it came to his son. Not an attractive trait and while I called him on it a lot at the beginning of the relationship, at some point I started to give up. I hated pointing out that he should want to be with me at least one day on the weekend. I wanted him to just want to.
Spent a lot of time crying yesterday for the first time in a long time. Woke again at 4:00 a.m. Don't think I can take much more of this.
I'm sorry you're in such a bad place this weekend. Can I ask, what specifically is making you cry? Are there particular thoughts or emotions associated with it? Also, do you feel your grief is as deep this time as previously, or is it at a slightly less intense level? Sorry, that sounds a bit clinical--I feel for you; it's a terrible place to feel so alone.
About the PE, I think you stated that it began to show up in your relationship in the last few years. So I'm assuming that the excitement of sex with someone new (and possibly a bit sleazy?) would allow H to perform better for a period, but once the novelty wore off, his mind would dominate his physical urges once more and the problem would return. I sort of found the same thing after having my D--I was okay for a while, then a sort of fog would creep into ML, and I was unable to connect with my sexuality again for very long at a time. Most of the stories I've read here, the MLCers admit afterwards that sex with the OP was not great, but they lied about it when rubbing it in their spouse's faces. And you know how effortlessly they lie about everything else at that point! They probably don't want to admit to themselves that they've just lost yet another reason for leaving the M.
I read over your first post here again, and it seems indisputable to me that your H went through a drastic change a few years ago, one that included all the hallmark phrases of MLC. I think your C and your friend are right that your H was damaged by his abuse, and that the depth of his MLC results from it, and that he may never snap out of MLC-mode unless he really confronts himself. However, from what you've said, I think he was showing his better self when you met and for some years after, so what you had was not just an illusion.
Are you feeling any better today? Is it good to be at work, so you've got people around you and tasks to perform? Have you got any further on planning your vacation?
My mind starts spinning with all of the things he has said or done since our separation and I start to cry.
When I told him our marriage was over last June, I was OK emotionally. I was upset, of course, but was generally OK because I thought that we were going to treat each other with consideration and respect.
Two days later he didn't come home on a week night (I was up all night and frantic) and I threw him out of the house the next day. He told me he slept on a friends couch. I didn't believe him, of course, but assumed that he got drunk and had a ONS as I didn't know about the OW. Every time we spoke afterwards he would make a snide comment about me being unreasonable and not wanting to have an amiable split just because he spent the night on Dave's couch. Why wouldn't I believe him . . . he would NEVER do that to me. He finally admitted in January 09 that he spent the night with the OW. TWO DAYS after our separation! What an pig he is! To have someone who once loved me treat me as badly as he did still causes me a great deal of pain. What kind of woman is she? I can't imagine ever intentionally inflicting that kind of pain on another woman.
Added to that is the confusion; the things that just don't make sense. Once on the phone I told him that I had my first birdie golfing and he wanted to know who I was golfing with. I told him it was none of his business and he freaked out saying "You're dating already! -- that's cute!" and hung up on me. A few minutes later he sent me an email saying that I was trying to hurt him and he didn't understand why. This was July 6th. On July 4th he had booked and paid for tickets for him and OW to go on a vacation to Cuba. It makes no sense!
In October, after my Gyn told me that he thought I had a STD, I called xh in a panic and BEGGED him to tell me the truth. Told him it didn't matter anymore, we are getting divorced, but this is my LIFE and I was going to have to wait 4 WEEKS for the one of the tests and he still denied, denied and denied. When I said, "I haven't slept with anyone." he replied "Neither have I." It makes no sense! He told me later that he thinks I was making it up.
I certainly hope he is having bad sex but you know what they say . . . even bad sex is pretty good. I hope he is having bad golf and bad hockey too. I hope he can't afford the hair-loss pills anymore and rapidly loses all of his hair on top so that he looks like a clown. I hope he can't even get an interview for a mailroom position. I hope he runs through his employment severance pay like a drunken sailer and ends up completely and totally broke. I hope he returns to the lapdancers and gives the OW the clap.
I guess the grief is less intense because I am no longer in shock but it's still pretty powerful grief. I can't believe this has happened to us and that I am left on my own to start again while he lives his happy life with the OW.
Hoping to see my girlfriend this weekend to discuss Ireland. I am not holding my breath.
