No, I haven't read that book but have heard it mentioned a few times. Maybe I'll see if I can find it.
The only large issue we had in our marriage before MLC was that he didn't help me around the house. I did the laundry every Thurs night while he played hockey, cleaned while he was out with his son, etc. I would do this for about six months waiting for him to do his share just once and then I would confront him. He would try for a week or so to help and then slip back into his pattern. It was very frustrating for me because I really didn't want to be that type of figure in the relationship.
When MLC hit, my looking after him and the house caused him to lose respect for me so I will never fall into that pattern again, if I ever live with someone.
I did tell h that I wanted us to do things together and that is why we took up tennis. I also started golfing a lot more than I normally would. H didn't make much effort to do things that I would like to do however, and when he did, I always knew that he really didn't want to be there and it would only make me anxious, especially in the last two years of our marriage.
H is very quiet, EXTREMELY quiet, and sporting activities means he doesn't have to participate in conversations. I am a big talker so I more than made up for it but again, in the last two years, I had begun to stop trying so hard because he seemed so BORED with me. I didn't get angry though, just sad and confused.
H tried to accommodate his s as much as possible and show interest but wasn't very good at faking it. H has always been self-centered and I have always told him that. It certainly became exaggerated to the extreme during the MLC.
As you said, once the MLC starts there is NOTHING we can do to turn things around. I still can't believe what my h has done to his life.
The Love Languages book is good for a quick read-through not only because it helps you identify what makes you feel loved in a relationship, but it also is helpful in understanding why certain relationships within a family work better than others. One of my BILs cannot get along with his dad--yet if you look at it, both are offering the other what THEY like in a relationship, they're just frustrated that what they're getting back is what the OTHER person needs, which they're pretty much dismissing. Often where a parent has a "favourite" child, it's really because they both share the same language.
Ooooh, I know what you mean about feeling your H was totally bored with you. That sure shrivelled up my self-confidence. Then, to make matters worse, it became clear that any little thing the OW said was endlessly fascinating and exotic, by contrast. That's what hurt the most: my H stopped taking any interest in anything I had to say, but was constantly on the cell with the OW.
The whole housework thing is a really tricky area. When we were first married, I expected my H to do his share, and we did much of it together, and I taught him how to cook some things, etc. But after having kids, I was home more, and he'd look after the kids so I could get stuff done, and gradually he did most of the outside stuff while I looked after the house. Then came the MLC he became more and more selfish: his primary contribution was complaining about how I'd done things, or that his favourite shirt wasn't washed yet.... It drove me crazy that when we were guests elsewhere he'd help with the dishes, etc, but never lift a finger at home. I felt like a drudge, and disliked myself for getting into this position, but couldn't get through to him. When we'd met, he'd admired me for my mind, and now he couldn't even tell I had one.
His MLC made him repulsively selfish (though he'd always been that way to a degree), but I'm happy to report that he's a better guy now. He notices when I'm doing housework and helps out, and we're back to making meals together sometimes. We try to do the yard work together. I'm not sure he's ever cleaned a toilet, but I'm happy with where we're at. I think, if I ever get into another relationship, I wouldn't move in together without a clear agreement of how the housework was going to be split.
The disadvantage of this board is that the WAS always comes across at his worst. I can see a lot of negatives in your H, esp. after the MLC intensified his selfcentredness and unwillingness to engage with you. I'm having a harder time seeing his positive qualities. And I'm wondering, are they still the sort of qualities you'd want in a mate, or would you really prefer someone who, I don't know, argues with you? Does more couples activities? Have you thought what sorts of activities you might enjoy?
I hope Operation Weight Gain is still progressing steadily, and you have nice plans for the weekend!
When we first started living together, our agreement was that he would do the cooking and the laundry. He never did the laundry and wasn't much of a cook. I am not either so I was delighted when he said he would do the cooking because he liked it.
Turns out he thought he might like it but discovered that he didn't. He would often get me to make a large batch of something (ie: pasta sauce) then feed me pasta every night for 3 or 4 nights and pat himself on the back for making dinner. At one point he started giving me toast and pickles for nights on end. No -- not joking. Even his s would ask me if I would make his scrambled eggs or the Kraft Dinner because I did it better than h! It didn't bother me though. Things like that made me laugh.
I realize that you are only reading negative things but as most of our talk is about his MLC, it is negative. When he was the man I married prior to 2006, I was very happy and content even if his lack of help around the house really pissed me off.
You wrote that your h would help when you were guests elsewhere so at least he recognized that something needed to be done. I can't even say that! My h even thought that I was anal because I cleaned before guests came over to the house and I once caught him secretly asking his SIL and sister if they cleaned before they had the family over. They thought he was nuts!
He was a terrible slob and after he "cleaned" his bathroom I would wait until he was out and do it again with bleach. He would come home and see the difference and say "thanks baby but stay out of my bathroom!"
His slovenly habits aside, he made me laugh and I loved that. I liked that he was active and not a couch potato. I liked that he liked my company and thought I was smart. I liked that he wasn't too kissy-huggy because I don't like to be mauled too much. I liked that he wasn't jealous and we trusted each other completely. I loved that we took my mother somewhere every summer and he never complained or even rolled his eyes when she came out of her hotel room without her shoes. I loved that no matter what I looked like when I rolled out of bed with the flu or something he still thought I was beautiful. I loved that I was completely confident in our future together.
Still working on the weight. Got my final STD test result today -- no HPV! -- and am going to celebrate with apple pie.
First of all, good for you for looking after yourself with the STD testing, and hurray you're fine! I hope the apple pie was yummy!!
Mmmmmm--nights of toast and pickles ... gotta still be in love to put up with that! I liked the bit where he served up your batch cooking and figured he'd made dinner, too.
Okay, you've painted some good pictures of happy interactions, and I can see your (pre-MLC) H more clearly now. It really is shocking how they lose all those loveable qualities, isn't it? You mentioned that he is a very quiet guy; would you say that was able to express his emotions prior to 2006, or did he hold too much in? In many cases the MLCer does seem to be an emotionally stunted guy who isn't sufficiently aware of his emotions, and certainly is afraid to talk about them. My H used to claim he was a "very simple guy," implying he had far fewer emotional issues to deal with than others. I felt sure he was wrong ... and then I found out how very wrong! Now, when he's upset, instead of shutting down or pretending, he forces himself to talk about it, and he's not very good at it yet, but it means so much to me. (Thank you, C.) The whole never learning how to be emotionally open does seem to be a theme with these guys.
You might have some insight onto a question of mine. You say you don't like to be mauled too much. I'm sort of the same, though H is a mauler and I've learned to kind of like it. In my case, I start to cringe and get tense when other people have hug-fests, but I can't tell how much of that is to do with the abuse, or what I would have been like before that. My D has concerned me for a while, though, because she has never liked to be touched. She accepts a quick hug & kiss before bed, but if it goes on for more than a few seconds, she literally pushes us away. If I were to hurt myself, she might pat my shoulder, but that's about as touchy-feely as she gets. Her friends are always holding hands with each other, or putting arms around each other, but if they try it with her she quietly breaks out of it as quickly as possible. At the same time, she's very social and loves to be with friends. Sometimes I wonder how she'll ever stand being in a relationship with anyone when she's so hands-off, and wonder why she's always been this way. I guess I just want you to say, stop worrying mom, she sounds just fine to me!
Thanks. The test result was a huge relief! I am now thinking about getting the HPV vaccination. There have been no studies for my age group and I would have to pay for it but it certainly won't cause me any harm.
No, h was not able to express his emotions prior to MLC and that's why I didn't realize what serious trouble we were in until it was too late. Quiet to the extreme and emotionally distant is the way he always was. I didn't think it was going to be a problem long-term and I loved him so I let him be and didn't often try to drag things out of him.
What changed in 2006 was I just felt that he didn't want to spend time with me, felt him moving away from me, so I would ask him on occasion if he wanted to stay with me and he would always insist that everything was fine and he loved me. It was a subtle change so I was able to put it out of my head most of the time. Given what has happened, it would not have made any difference if I had pushed him. He is doing what he thinks he needs to do.
All of our life together, when something that should have upset him didn't I would ask him why and he would always say that he's just an easy-going guy and doesn't hold grudges. Sounds very similar to your h doesn't it? It's very good that your h recognizes now how destructive it is and makes the effort to talk, even though it is hard for him and likely always will be.
A few months after h and I split we were talking on the phone and he was trying to justify the lapdancing (I didn't know about the affair yet) and he said he was in a dark place. I asked him why he couldn't have just talked to me and he said "I don't talk." So he would rather throw our relationship away then talk to me and try to change what he believed was making him unhappy.
I have never liked to be mauled and neither does anyone else in my family. Although H was the same way and he suggested after we split that we both need to be with someone who is more affectionate. Then he thought about it for a few minutes and said it would probably just start to irritate him. I am sure his ow is more affectionate than I am because that is obviously who he was referring to, unknown to me. I wonder how long before it starts getting to him.
My late brother has two daughters and one was exactly the same way as your daughter and the other loved to be hugged. I don't think you should link it to the abuse as I believe it really is just the way some people are. Your daughter sounds like she has taken after you and as long as she is happy to spend time with her friends and they seek her out, I would not worry. As far as future romantic relationships, I had no shortage of men in my life and none ever complained.
Well, at least your H recognized that he "didn't talk." After his mother died, mine just said he had nothing to talk about, or that there was something wrong with me so that he couldn't talk to me--it's taken until now for him to recognize that he's always buried the issues he really needed to discuss. In his case, I think part of it was that his mom would pry for information, and then broadcast it (she did like her drama!), so he felt he needed to maintain some privacy from her. It really hurt, though, that he was unconsciously punishing me for his mother's behaviour!! And then, what did he seek out in an OW? Someone who thrived on drama, and was energized by the mixture of guilt and adoration he felt towards her.
Like yours, my H insisted everything was fine in our relationship and he loved me and our life together ... yet all the while I could feel him slipping further and further away. I think the problem is that the beginning MLCer feels such a sense of unhappiness with his life. At first he recognizes it's nothing to do with his marriage, yet as time passes and he feels more miserable (and critical and blaming), he decides that's what it must be. Then it takes such an excruciatingly long time before he accepts that the problem was never the marriage, but himself. This isn't to say that our marriage was perfect. I know that we both let past issues negatively affect our behaviour, and at the bomb I identified a number of ways I knew I needed to change myself and any relationship I was in. But, as you say, if only we could have talked about improving our relationship, instead of H unilaterally deciding to give up on me in favour of OW.
I'm sorry you lost your brother; that must have been very hard especially as he was still so young. It's interesting what you say about his daughters, because my other child is just like his other daughter: more physically affectionate than I could imagine possible in a pre-teen boy! (Did she take after her mother?) And it's very reassuring that it shouldn't affect D's relationships.
You know, your H will definitely find being with a more affectionate person irritating after a while. My H admitted--before counselling, even--that he liked the fact his evenings with the EA were relatively short, or he'd have tired of her a lot faster. In his case, he was attracted by her extreme lack of affection, which later he saw as her greatest flaw.
My weekend was good, and I hope yours was as well. Are you feeling more like yourself, the longer you live alone? Are you reconnecting with the things you used to enjoy? Or is it still too raw....?
My h did always recognize that he was withdrawn and non-communicative, until he decided last year that he is a extrovert!
Your h's mother sounds like she was, how shall I say, interesting? Poor guy! Can you imagine how hurt he must have been every time she betrayed a confidence? I have read that the MLCer usually "affairs down" but I also think they look for someone very different from their spouse because they are so sure that the spouse is the reason for their discontent.
I think you are correct in my h's feelings and depression and how he decided EVENTUALLY it was our marriage that was making him unhappy. What I find very frustrating is that I did try to address our issues a few years before we split. I would have been happy and willing to try to make changes had he identified anything but it was always me raising the issue. I didn't get the "IDLY" bomb until after I had ended the marriage. I believe that is because he did love me but decided that he must not around the time he started the affair. When I told him a couple of weeks before we separated that I has lost all confidence in "us" he asked me what he had to do for me to get that back again. If he no longer loved me, he had the perfect opportunity to say so then.
My brother was 44 when he died from non-hodgkin's lymphoma. It was a very agressive form and he died only 5 months after diagnosis. It was heartbreaking for all of us. He was the only person in the family who always took very good care of himself. He was the only person who never smoked, rarely drank, was a track star at university, etc. He was seven years older and I admired him a great deal and miss him every day. He died at the end of October 1999. Less than three months later my h and I were out having a beer one night and I started to cry. H said "Don't you think you should be over this by now?" I guess that should have been a clue to what I had to look forward to.
No, the other niece is not like her mother -- she is just herself. My former SIL is not a nice person at all and we could never figure out what my brother saw in her. They almost divorced once but with counselling put it back together again.
Weekend was uneventful. Honestly, I have been "alone" for a long time. I was lonely then and am lonely now but haven't quite figured out how to fix that yet.
I'd have to say my H's OW was my opposite, from what I've heard at least. Also, I came across a post by Newman (??--from the other site) where he suggested that the OW is like the anima, or rejected female side of the male MLCer. I saw one photo of the OW and was amazed that she actually looked like a female version of my H! Interestingly, Newman was right: H seems to have come to terms with his female side now, and it actually makes him more comfortable in accepting his role as a guy.
Yes, my H's mom was an interesting, larger-than-life figure! She had a lot of wonderful qualities as well, but I have to admit that, even though my kids have lost a very involved (!) grandmother, I'm glad they don't have to deal with her messing with their minds.
Oh, the duality of these MLCers is enough to drive a person crazy! My H admitted afterwards that he'd never stopped loving me, but as long as he couldn't love himself, he couldn't actually feel love for anyone else. I'm glad he recognized that. It's impressive that you were strong enough to be able to end things with your H so swiftly and decisively--that shows so much internal strength!
Your brother sounds like a really great guy--what a loss to you and your family. I hope that, despite her failures, his wife made a good parent to his daughters. It's strange how sometimes it's the clean livers among us who succumb to cancer early. The same thing happened to my mother, who died at 60 after doing EVERYTHING right. She must have had one of the lowest toxic loads of anyone living in North America. Whenever I hear one of those programs on "things you should do to avoid cancer," I can mentally check off every single thing--and more--because she did them all. It seems inconceiveable, and also scary that following the health rules can yield so little result. Meanwhile, they ask the 100 year olds for their secrets, and it often comes down to, "Every day I smoked, drank and ate red meat and look at me now!"
It's horrible that your H thought you should be over your brother's death in 3 months. I guess that's part of the whole I-have-no-issues-so-what's-wrong-with-you mentality. And it's not any consolation to think that his issues are now rearing their ugly heads, and it's going to take him a LOT longer than 3 months to get over them....
Being lonely sucks. It's such a hard thing to change, though. What have you thought about doing? Are there any things you've always wanted to accomplish, but it was never the right time?
I'd have to say my H's OW was my opposite, from what I've heard at least. Also, I came across a post by Newman (??--from the other site) where he suggested that the OW is like the anima, or rejected female side of the male MLCer. I saw one photo of the OW and was amazed that she actually looked like a female version of my H! Interestingly, Newman was right: H seems to have come to terms with his female side now, and it actually makes him more comfortable in accepting his role as a guy.
Yes, my H's mom was an interesting, larger-than-life figure! She had a lot of wonderful qualities as well, but I have to admit that, even though my kids have lost a very involved (!) grandmother, I'm glad they don't have to deal with her messing with their minds.
Oh, the duality of these MLCers is enough to drive a person crazy! My H admitted afterwards that he'd never stopped loving me, but as long as he couldn't love himself, he couldn't actually feel love for anyone else. I'm glad he recognized that. It's impressive that you were strong enough to be able to end things with your H so swiftly and decisively--that shows so much internal strength!
Your brother sounds like a really great guy--what a loss to you and your family. I hope that, despite her failures, his wife made a good parent to his daughters. It's strange how sometimes it's the clean livers among us who succumb to cancer early. The same thing happened to my mother, who died at 60 after doing EVERYTHING right. She must have had one of the lowest toxic loads of anyone living in North America. Whenever I hear one of those programs on "things you should do to avoid cancer," I can mentally check off every single thing--and more--because she did them all. It seems inconceiveable, and also scary that following the health rules can yield so little result. Meanwhile, they ask the 100 year olds for their secrets, and it often comes down to, "Every day I smoked, drank and ate red meat and look at me now!"
It's horrible that your H thought you should be over your brother's death in 3 months. I guess that's part of the whole I-have-no-issues-so-what's-wrong-with-you mentality. And it's not any consolation to think that his issues are now rearing their ugly heads, and it's going to take him a LOT longer than 3 months to get over them....
Being lonely sucks. It's such a hard thing to change, though. What have you thought about doing? Are there any things you've always wanted to accomplish, but it was never the right time?
I know nothing about the woman my h is with now and will do my best not to discover anything. Don't even want to know what she looks like.
When my h first agreed to a divorce in Jan 08, I was obviously upset and scared but didn't feel like I was making the wrong decision. When we decided to go to couselling and "work on our marriage" I did the work but h did not, choosing instead to have an affair and throw money at lapdancers. He was also well on his way to digging us into a financial hole. If I had known at the end of Jan that what was happening was a MLC, I am not sure I would have done anything differently. I just could not live like that anymore.
When I wasn't feeling any changes on his part over the next five months, it was fairly easy to make the split and initially I was again scared but fairly calm. It wasn't until he started treating me like his arch-enemy and I started discovering all of his lies that I fell apart emotionally. I didn't think we were going to be friends exactly but I didn't think that it would end up the way it has. I always stayed friends with ex-boyfriends, even still sleeping with them for a time, in the past. Once I started reading about MLCs I wondered if it was something that we would be able to get past but after discovering the lapdances at the end of Aug 08 I knew I would never be able to go back. I had a dream once that we got back together and all I felt was shame.
My brother was a great guy and a huge loss. Sometimes my mother forgets and ask why she hasn't heard from him in a while and I can't bring myself to tell her why. I just pretend I don't hear her and eventually she remembers. My SIL was, I believe, a good mother. She just really considered her and my brother and the girls their own family and didn't want to spend much time with us which was difficult for us because we really wanted to watch the kids grow and be with our brother. Two years before he died, they moved to another province so we rarely saw or heard from them until he became ill and came to Toronto for treatment.
I'm sorry about your mother. It is certainly true that cancer has little to do with lifesyle with a few exceptions such as lung cancer. I think that you are either going to get it or you are not and you are either going to recover or you are not. Listening to the oncologists when my brother was ill made it clear that they really have no idea. My friend's mother had cancer of the uterus and recovered and then had colon cancer and recovered.
I hear you about the three month thing. I have never really forgiven h for the way he was when my brother died. The morning my brother died he immediately went to bed when we got home, leaving me alone to call my boss, coworkers, friends, etc. At the funeral he stood in a corner laughing with his brother during the reception like it was a cocktail party leaving me on my own to greet my friends, and then he tells me I should be "over it" three months later. Really heartless but that goes back to his lifetime of emotional detachment doesn't it?
I discovered yesterday that h was the only person in his group who was let go (had someone who works at the bank check the inhouse email). Obviously his being fired cannot be blamed entirely on the economic crisis. I am not surprised if he continued behaving the way he was during the last year or so of our marriage. You can't keep up all that drinking, late nights, etc. without it taking a toll. Part of me believed that it was just to get away from me, however, and now that he has a new relationship and is "really really happy" he would be behaving himself.
I am very much a homebody so it is difficult to get out to do things. Also, most of my friends are married and have children so it's hard to find someone to spend time with. I know -- it is pathetic. The paralegal course is not going to work because there are about 18 mandatory subjects at $600+ each plus books as well as a field placement. My boss is pretty good but I don't think he would let me take six months off to do another job somewhere else. Feel free to give me ideas . . .
