Well...

[faithisbelieving]

PS...I apologize..what is LW? F

[SDFoundGirl]

Once trust is broken..it's like your favorite coffee mug with the handle broken off. You glue it, but worry if the hot cup will plummet into your lap. No matter how hard you work and try...the doubt....never goes away.

...

The answer still comes down to you SD. It still comes down to a long walk at the beach....a lot of introspection....and, since you still have the ability to do so, a lot of ? communication with H?

Do you have kids? Doesn't say so in your sig. Do you need an ear?

FIB

Your analogy about trust is spot on. I never, ever believed *my* H was capable of being this dishonest cheat. I've worked really, really hard, but I can't see him the way I used to. He could become Gandhi and I would still doubt him...check up...always. That's a huge lost to a M, any relationship really. Would you continue a close R with a friend who lied to you? How long?

LW= Letter Woman, my nice term for the whore. I found letters H was composing to her while we were in crisis, hence LW.

Now, she never returned the feelings. I saw them together, I know this for sure. However...

I honestly believe she enjoyed (enjoys) the attention, needs the validation that sunshine bursts out of her hoo-ha because she's so dang considerate and wonderful (because, you know, she was after all a criminal at one point in her life). She interfered with my M. She'd just gone through her own D too. She crossed the boundary, became his confidant, advised him, LAUGHED at me on his voicemail when I was doing my 180s calling me an alien.

I hate her.

But this isn't about her, this is about my H. He is a liar. I don't know what communication will achieve at this point as I've had really direct conversations with him about no social contact with her...how it affected me...how I perceived it as an affair. I have laid it all on the table without threats, only how I feel and what I wanted, and he agreed.

But he's a liar. I checked his phone last night while he was cleaning up the dishes, and she'd called and left a voicemail. So I listened to it. Snooping? Yes. Do I care? Nope. He lost any right to privacy when he continued lying to me. He actually deletes her number/name from his call history any time she calls/he calls. How do I know this? I check the cell record.

Along with the lying, it just pisses me off that he also thinks I'm stupid.

Anyway, the voicemail was her requesting that he send her a link to the place he told her she could buy a refurbished mac...which he'd coached her and advised her to do. Now, this wouldn't be a big deal in the ordinary world, but the agreement has been NO NON-WORK CONTACT. This is not work, and her offering to buy him lunch on Friday (since he's been so helpful w/a work project and w/this computer stuff) is DEFINITELY not work. He has to go film an event that she's the head of on Friday, so he'll just cover it up in that bullsh*t.

He's had words from...true, heartfelt words, and they mean NOTHING.

I deleted the voicemail, and I deleted her call from the call history. She'll say something I'm sure, and he'll know, but he won't ever say anything to me about it.

It's the hiding of it that concerns me...why hide things that don't have at least a kernel of wrongness to it?

We don't have kids...a whole other thing that just about breaks my heart now that I'm headed toward 40. I keep thinking H will just dump me and go have kids with someone else...and I think that might send me over the edge.

My H is so serious...so dang "enlightened"...and so unable to let go and be light-hearted and silly. I am a different SD with him than I am with my good friends, and it's because of reaction to that over the years. We don't have fun...and I come, again, to the question Is This All There Is?

I could go on in this M until I die...I feel like I have worked my butt off...and I think he thinks I'm the only one who should compromise or grow as he's already so enlightened and perfect. I want passion, joy, love, fun, laughter, exploration...I have tried to engage H in these things, and it's just not there.

It may be the MLC talking, but I wonder if I made the wrong choice. I do know that I married H because he was safe and I believed he'd never hurt me by being unfaithful, that I would become a better person myself because he was such a good guy. Did I settle? That's the question that's been in my mind for quite a while, and it's still unanswered.

A walk on the beach is exactly what's called for. H is out at yoga, will be back soon, and maybe I'll just be scarce and go see the ocean.

I've got lots to think about, just trying not to let MLC bull or emotions make decisions I'll regret.

SD

[faithisbelieving]

There are decisions you can make that are not 'fatal'. Have you thought about separation? Unfortunately, the stats say that it will end up in D.

Sadly, SD, I have posted over and over that when we come here, our M is in really bad shape..probably some of the worst case scenarios. Then, we come here and find 'hope'. We also find a great place of denial. This morning, my L said to me:

Do you really expect people to change a pattern that was developed in childhood? People go RIGHT BACK to who they were.

My favorite story is the fable of The Emperor's New Clothes. Did you read it as a child?

The Emperor's New Clothes

Many of us come here and we drape ourselves in a cloak of 'hope for reconciliation' when we are unable to see the naked truth. Is this a place to save your M at any cost, or, is this a place to hide in fear and denial? Those stupid cliche's keeping coming back to haunt us:

• people don't change
• once a cheater, always a cheater
• once the trust is gone, it never comes back

Who coined those phrases?

SD...I have not followed your sitch to the letter but I have read a bit...both on my sitch and yours. You seem like a fine woman. I am ?jaded now since I am in my own D, but, I have a retrospectoscope. I am NOT a religious stander (obviously), but, when is it time to let go and move on? When is hope lost? When does one enforce the ultimate boundary?

After 3 indiscretions in my own sitch, I threw in the towel. I KNEW my M was toast. All I can say is..personally...and not really knowing you as a neighbor or friend...is that it bothers me that your H has not honored your request. Where there's smoke, there's fire.

So, SD, H is texting the woman with whom you've asked him to sever non-business connections. If it were me, I wouldn't be found within 10 miles of that woman if I wanted my M to be saved.

So....what do you do? How do you get across to H that it is not acceptable yet, if it is your desire to continue/save this, deliver that message in a way that says you've had enough? Is it time for an LRT?

FIB
forever liking risotto 9003 times while screaming yahoo in the air.

[SDFoundGirl]

Loved your code, FIB. THANK YOU.

So, last night I blew. I'm too tired to retype it all, so I'm going to just copy and paste an email I sent to my best friend about what happened. DB? Maybe not...but I definitely did something different. Talking to my H calmly (the way he says he prefers) hasn't worked the last gazillion times I've tried to talk to him about the whore, so I raised my voice. Don't know why he doesn't listen if he doesn't like this SD...

---

I hope you've adjusted to being home and had an awesome session at your weekend classes!

Well, something H did at dinner last night triggered me and I brought out a giant can of whoop-ass on him. Basically, he was lecturing me about how we had to anticipate others' discomfort and, EVEN IF they say directly that something doesn't bother them, we are to STILL adjust our choices to accommodate what we think they really prefer. Basically, I was toying with the idea of making my family birthday meal @ [a local restaurant that puts on a drag show brunch}, and he was thinking it might be uncomfortable for his father. I said I'd ask FIL, but if he said it was okay and it really wasn't, then it was no longer my responsibility. Truthfully, I don't think his dad would have a problem with it. I think it's H WITH his dad that has a problem with it.

This just set me off, and I told him that if he wanted to sacrifice his ONE life trying to anticipate and spare others' discomfort, if he wanted to martyr himself forever, that was fine, but I wasn't going to do it. And then it hit me...he didn't give a sh!t about MY discomfort with his continued association with that woman, but he did flips and back bends for every other person on this planet, to the point he was more willing to accommodate for distant relatives or acquaintances more than he was willing to respect me or my feelings/discomfort.

So I kind of went thermonuclear, but in a good way I think. I did keep it focused on how I felt, but I also put everything out there. I told him I was tired of him lying, tired of him simply hiding things better, tired of him making concessions for everyone else, tired of him not respecting my feelings on this issue NO MATTER how he thinks I SHOULD feel about it. He returned with how he'd greatly reduced his contact with her, and I responded that the agreement was NO non-work contact, and that meant that if she wanted him to help her out with something, wanted to buy him lunch or even go out to lunch, wanted to talk about ANYTHING non-work related, it was crossing my boundaries.

And then I told him that he needed to get anything she'd given him out of my dam* house. I asked him to imagine how I'd feel if he died, I was having to go through his things, and found anything.

So then he gets mad at me...and tells me I should respect his privacy, and I tell him that his lying and hiding things, his choice to put THAT relationship above me and our marriage, has lost him his right to privacy because he'd proven he couldn't be trusted. I told him I'd never ever gone into his things before this all had happened, and that I was happy to stop after he'd proved through ACTION that he was trustworthy.

I also told him to make a choice, because continued contact with her meant no more contact with me. And I told him not to say anything he didn't mean, because if it happened one more time, I was going to kick him out and file for divorce the next day.

He says he's never stopped being friends or knowing anyone in his whole life, so how does he do this? I told him I didn't know, but it was his mess to clean up if he intended to stay in this relationship. He said he'd figure it out, but he's such a wuss that I just don't know.

I also asked him how he'd feel if I was still hanging out with the guy I met during that summer, the one who would have gladly taken the opportunity to get in my pants if I'd offered. He said it would bother him, but he wanted it to be my choice. I told him he was a great guy--fun, light hearted, ambitious, kind, good looking, funny--but that I'd made the decision to end contact with him out of respect to my marriage and out of the belief that it would be too easy to cross the line with him if things got challenging between us (me & H) again.

In the end he said he'd have to prove it to me through actions, and he would. Will he? I don't know, and I guess that's really not the point. I said everything I had to say in a way maybe he can finally hear it. He HATES it when I get to the point of raising my voice, but as I pointed out to him, I'd already tried this conversation, calmly, 4-times before, and he didn't listen, that the only time I ever got through to him was when it got to this point.

So, he feels (rightly) like he's been beaten up (not blaming me), and I feel dam* fine. He expects me to act angry, not want to be around him, etc., so he can't understand how I can go from that to talking about errands we need to run and hanging out reading on the couch together. I know you'll get it.

And maybe I shouldn't feel this way, maybe I should just get over it (which is true), but you can only do The Work and journal and clean up your vibration so many times before it becomes maddening. And he can do whatever he wants to, but I'm not willing to be in relationship with someone who won't respect a reasonable request, one that every single article and book on the issue says is essential.

If you're still reading, thanks for sitting through this. I'm really okay, and I also know that you'll tell me if I'm off track here. I SO MUCH appreciate that you are willing to tell me the truth, always. I just don't want to associate with liars, you know?

---

I reached my limit. What will H do? I don't know, but he's been duly advised. I don't need him for my personal happiness, and I deserve more in a R. Period.

SD

[Dia]

Wow. Hi, I'm new here, but this post really struck a chord with me. One of the things my H gripes about is that my communication style is 'gentle, gentle, gentle, ARMAGEDDON." The gentle stuff goes right past him, and then armageddon takes him completely by surprise and I get accused of over-reacting. He'd like something that's in between gentle and armageddon. I sorta think that if he'd just have listened to any ONE of the several 'gentles', that there'd never BE an armageddon.

I'm not sure I'll ever get the chance with him, but I've learned a lot about being more clear and direct, even if it's not so 'gentle'.

[faithisbelieving]

Kudos SD. WTG. Ya know...you've been thru the early DB crap. You walked on your eggshells. You avoided conflict like we all do in the beginning. You tried your calm and quiet communication.

You did your full blown DB stuff.

Now..reading the above...as Carrie says in SITC, "I like-ee".

You were firm.

You drew your boundary.

You are letting him know that you've had enough.

You are saying that there are TWO in an M..not three.

You've told him, now, that you are willing to file if he doesn't show YOU ...that your marriage is worth it.

I think you've done fine girl....WTG. My only advice to you now..is...to set a time limit in your mind. I don't care WHAT others say here...but...set a limit. You need to mentally prepare that you MUST have a plan and stick with it lest it show weakness.

Finally, as a joke:

I told him he was a great guy--fun, light hearted, ambitious, kind, good looking, funny--

and had a bigger......oh never mind (guys don't take that well....ROFLMAO).

FIB

[SDFoundGirl]

Finally, as a joke:

I told him he was a great guy--fun, light hearted, ambitious, kind, good looking, funny--

and had a bigger......oh never mind (guys don't take that well....ROFLMAO).

FIB

LOL...good one!

H is kissing butt, big time, and so far, no contact at all. Not even work. But then I wonder, can he really man up and risk looking like a jerk by blowing her off when she wants to chat him up about something? I don't know if H has it in him to look like the bad guy (you know, to other people, because clearly it's been okay to look that way to me...though he doesn't see himself that way).

I'm adopting an attitude of curiosity. In the meantime, I'm enjoying my summer and taking care of myself. All I can do, really.

SD

[faithisbelieving]

SD...in the beginning, I teetered between 'curiosity' and the DB posters' recommendations of 'not going down cheeseless tunnels'.

I lean towards curiosity. Dr. Phil said in his book Relationship Rescue that you 'own your marriage'. Sadly, in my own M, 'curiosity' got me answers to questions I was afraid to ask, but, painted a VERY CLEAR picture of what was going on. I don't regret that.

Once people get the endorphin feelings of the OP, the recidivism rate is high. That is the infidelity penalty we pay...trust. Nearly all books on infidelity will tell you that it requires more work on their part to undo this and rebuild the trust. BIG WORK.

Anyway, I think you did a fine job defining your borders. I mean, really, who wants to be continually hurt? I didn't. As time goes on, like most things, the hurtful episodes become more dim and, from time to time, I question myself...on whether I did the right thing. But...trust was never restored...and living right now....like you have been recently...is not healthy emotionally.

Curiosity and boundary enforcement...is the RIGHT thing right now, lest you live the rest of your life with H looking, snooping, hurting, wondering.......

FIB
(there is always this as a last resort)

PS..your book arrived and I am reading it.

[faithisbelieving]

PS...I have an interesting pdf you may want to read that may apply in parts to H. FIB

[Trixi]

Good job SD. FIB makes some interesting points about DBing and denial, etc.

My H has repeatedly said that he's a "good person" and "he'd do anything" if someone needed him to. Once he said he'd 'lay down his life for a stranger'. Maybe it's mean of me, but the last time he said something along those lines I said "yeah, you say you'd do that, but you won't commit to someone you say you love. Interesting."

I hope your H is doing what he said he would (ie "proving it") and I hope that in this process, you'll be able to get some of what you want. Right now, it sounds like the perfect storm may be brewing. I don't have advice, just observing that it sounds like you are on the cusp of being a WAS yourself.