WAW - Very confused and devestated - pt 2

[Coach]

My therapist yesterday told me that I need to express my feelings to her, don't ask for anything, but express how I'm hurt and frustrated that the she can't find it in her heart to forgive and give our marriage another chance.

I'm torn on that one, as that seems like a "high pressure" type of statement. Any thoughts?

I feel _________ when you do __________. Listen and validate each others feelings. Don't be defensive. Don't blame. Be compassionate, empathetic and listen.

[AnotherNightmare]

CIP,

I think you can express your feelings to her, especially if you have not done it before (so it would be a 180 for you), but be very careful at this time. Do not overdo it. She knows that you are hurting, so I would not tell her how you feel about the current sitch or things in the past. But if there is something she does now, you can let her know your feelings.

Generally, it is better if you let her express her feelings and validate them. As a general rule, she should express more of her own feelings than you, she should talk more than you.

I will let you know how my weekend goes. I am really looking forward to it. There is another weekend in April. I ordered the material in November and showed it to my W a few weeks later. It was a lot more difficult in my sitch, because my W was involved in an EA at that time, which had to stop if we wanted to go. I also called the couple that runs Retro in Delaware Valley, and it was quite insightful to talk to them. I am not sure how to suggest it to your W. I would probably give her some time still and wait for the right moment to ask her what she thinks about it.

AN

[confusedinpa]

Generally, it is better if you let her express her feelings and validate them. As a general rule, she should express more of her own feelings than you, she should talk more than you.

I'm thinking that I will bring it up during our next counseling session. She really hasn't shared much of her current feelings with me. The few times that she does, I do try to listen. Really all she has expressed is that she feels that she doesn't have a good choice to make - a divorce or staying in an unhappy marriage. I had tried to offer the third of staying and building our relationship so we can have the life we both had dreamed of when we got married. She said the she can't see how to do that as everytime she sees me, all she sees is the person who hurt her all these years. Each time, we talk about bringing that up in counseling, but she doesn't.

She does talk about her past feelings during counseling. I'm not trying to get her to talk about her current feelings though. I stopped checking her temperature a couple of weeks ago. But I feel it's not working very well as she hasn't opened up. A few times I would share my thoughts/feelings and would ask her what she thought/felt about what I shared.

It's very hard.

Can you send me the link to retroville? I may order the material for April so I can find a time to show her.

Thanks

[AnotherNightmare]

Really all she has expressed is that she feels that she doesn't have a good choice to make - a divorce or staying in an unhappy marriage. I had tried to offer the third of staying and building our relationship so we can have the life we both had dreamed of when we got married.

I hate to tell you this, but you are not listening, you are trying to provide solutions. It would be better to say something like:

"I understand how scared you are. It must look like you are choosing the lesser of two evils."

Stop there! Do not try to solve her problem. She will have to find the solution you are offering her by herself.

As to Retrouvaille, go to their website at http://www.helpourmarriage.com and check the dates for PA. There is a link for weekend info and then request information.

AN

[spellfire]

I stopped checking her temperature a couple of weeks ago. But I feel it's not working very well as she hasn't opened up.

Stopping taking her temperature is not about getting her to open up, but it can contribute to an environment where she will. It is going to stop you pushing her away. The only way you can get her to open up is to provide an environment where she feels safe to do so, and then provide the fuel by asking her an open ended question with no agenda attached to it, except that you want her tell you what she feels.

Two weeks is not long enough anyway. My guess would be that stopping temperature taking is working, it is just not showing on the surface.

[confusedinpa]

Last nite was really disturbing to me - I'm really starting to feel some resentment/frustration at how distant she is acting to me.

On her way home from work, she called me and we talked for about 20 minutes while she vented about her day. I listened, tried to empathize and "validate" (still trying to figure out what that exactly means). When she got home, I didn't try to give her a hug or a kiss, but helped with the kids when she went upstairs to change. We talked about what to have for dinner (we decided to use up our leftovers) and we each had a drink with dinner.

We talked and laughed a little - generally very pleasant conversations (probably exactly what she had wanted me to do over the years, but all I would ever say in response was ok).

She took the kids upstairs for bath and I stayed in the kitchen to clean up and do the dishes (which was what our routine was over the past years). The our youngest called to ask if I could give him a bath, which I did. After the kids bath, she said that she was going to take a bath as well. I said that sounded like a good idea to relax. Her bath was pretty short as there wasn't much hot water left.

I empathized a little then said I would try to turn up the temp on the hot water heater to see if that would help. While we were talking on the couch, she had reached her legs out and rested them against mine. I started to rub/caress them lightly and asked her if she wanted to use the "sensual oil" candle for a massage tonite. She said that it would be ok but the candle was upstairs. I suggest we could get it when we went upstairs to put the kids to bed.

I wound up bringing it down earlier as I had to go upstairs to get something else.

After we put the kids to bed, I asked her if she still wanted the massage as the candle wasn't lit yet. She responded that she just hadn't had a chance to light the candle. I did and brought it over to the loveseat we were sitting on. We started to watch another episode of Lost. About halfway through, I asked her if she thought the candle oil was ready yet. She checked it and it was. So I gave her a massage. Afterwards, we hugged - I invited and she accepted, but didn't give me a kiss, nor did I try.

I just felt that she no longer appreciates these types of things anymore.

When we went to bed, we chatted a little while, somehow we wound up talking about "going crazy". I joked about how what's happening between us is making me crazy. She joked back that that's how she felt over the past years so now it's my turn.

Then she asked, speaking of crazy, if I had scheduled my individual therapy appointment. I told her I had one that day. She remarked how did I have time to go to the dentist, have lunch with her and go to the therapist appointment as before she felt I had no time for anything else.

I used that time to tell her how in the past I felt I had to control/be involved in all the small issues as well as the big ones. Now I realize I can't be worried about the small things at work as I have many folks who are capable of handling it. I told her a few people at work even remarked about how I seemed to have changed. She didn't say anything but I asked her what she thought about that.

She said that she doesn't think there was anything that came up that she would have seen a change in my "control".

I then told her my therapist told me that I should open up and talk more. I told her I thought that was ironic as I thought my wife had thought I was talking too much now. My wife then responded that in the beginning I did, but she thought it was at a good level now.

I didn't get any further as I could tell she was starting to drift a sleep.

I'm still reluctant to bring up anything too heavy as I'm trying to make her enviornment comfortable (stray cat theory), but my therapist said sharing emotions should be ok, provided they aren't emotional type of sharing (i.e. yelling, screaming, angry, crying, etc.). I'm really on the fence on that and may test the waters if we get a chance.

I'm really tempted to say:

"I am really frustrated and upset when the woman I married tells me that she can't find it in her heart to forgive me".

or

"When I try to do nice things for you, it really hurts me when I don't feel that you appreciate it"

What are your thoughts? Any other ways to phrase those 2 thoughts?

I'm just worried that will be too pushy.

[volleydog]

For me...I can see no good coming from saying either of those two phrases, it will just make her defensive since it comes across as she's to blame for YOUR feelings.

[MrBond]

You're still pursuing. You can't keep doing these things and EXPECT something in return. Come on! The massage oil, the hug the you "invited". Read your post again and tell us how it doesn't sound like you're trying to get to to feel "obligated" to you.

Like they say...you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink the kool-aid.

The talking together without R talk is very good. The other stuff is very bad.

You want her to "initiate" rather than just going along with what you keep suggesting. She is going to say that you are CONTROLLING her. If you don't believe me, you'll find that the majority of our WASs have this notion that because the LBSs were trying, we were trying to control them.

It's unbelievable but true.

If she shows an interest ON HER OWN to do something together, then go for it without any expectations. Even though you say you don't, time and time again in all your posts, your neediness is showing. And her reaction is very typical.

Hold off before it's too late.

[AnotherNightmare]

CIP,

volleydog is right. She knows what you feel, believe me. There is no point in reitering that over and over again. She told you that it is your turn now, because she has been going through the same feelings for the last few years. So she knows your feelings.

You need to make any conversation with her about her, not about you. Everything else is about you, not her. You keep hearing the same advice from everybody here, because you keep thinking about how you can make the R with her better, how you can please her more, how you can make her come back to you and continue this M. The simple truth is you cannot make her do anything. You can be loving, kind and compassionate about how you treat her, but you need to stop worrying about her and start worrying about you.

Start thinking about how you (yourself) can be happy again (with or without her). Do not let anything she says or does affect you. And stop the physical contact with her. Ultimately it is pursuing and it is pushing her away. And it probably hurts you more than anything else, because for men, physical contact typically means emotional intimacy and closeness, and you get upset if she turns around and says you have never been farther away from her. If she really enjoys it, she will come to you and ask for it. If she does not, it does not do you any good anyway.

Really, you need to get the part about focusing on yourself into your mind. Face the realities, she does not want to be with you right now, so grant her her wish. If you want to save your M, make yourself the best possible option, become an independent man she is attracted to. And if she is not or does not become attracted to you ever again, at least you will be attractive to somebody else.

Hang in there! You can do it. You can save yourself. And you must save yourself first, if you want to save your M.

AN

[confusedinpa]

Guys,

I appreciate the frank and open input.

My therapist keeps reminding me that I am a survivor. Each time life has thrown tougher and tougher circumstances at me, I survived and thrived. I must remain confident that will happen now as well.

You are all right though, I must stop pursuing. I know I don't have to say how hard it is, but I know it's the right thing to do. I'm just trying to balance to show her I care and am intersted in her (which is what her principle issue was for the divorce - that I ignored her and made her feel unimportant).

The part I am really struggling with in my mind is that in the past, she would give me these signals (i.e. resting her legs/feet against mine) and I would ignore them or worse ask her to move them. That was one of the issues as in the beggining, when she did that, I would give her a massage or rub/carress her. I don't want her to think I was just ignoring them again now. How do I balance that?

I guess another confusing point last nite was that the mid way through the nite, she moved the pillow that was between us - back when we would use to spoon in bed. I didn't try to hug her or anything like that, but did notice it. It is the first time in a couple of weeks it wasn't between us. I'm sure it was just an accident, but thought it was interesting.

If she ever does the same - reaches out with her legs/feet to rest against my legs, should I just ignore them until she says something? How do I acknowledge it?