Climbing out of the swamp

[25yearsmlc]

What's interesting here is that bnd and I are women and we are reacting much more in one direction than some of you. Neither she nor I have met frank's w, but if I'm not mistaken we have both spoken with him, and we both somehow feel the W is being blamed for a whole lot that doesn't belong to her alone.

Neither of us has cheated and we both say A is wrong. And yet there is something that we both are sort of trying to say that bugs you guys. Can't put my finger on it. But I feel as if Frankd has some cognitive dissonance; saying what he thinks he should say, or should do or feel but then it's not at all what he does, and maybe isn't actually what he intends to do even as he's writing it...am I making any sense here?

Hmmm, mars and venus?
( j )

[frank_D]

I think Frank has simply been getting at the fact that he has far too often suppressed his anger in situations where people have treated him wrongly. Seems to me that his Counselor is trying to help him see that he needs to FEEL what he feels and deal with it, rather than allowing it to fester and send him to alternate methods of dealing with the issues.

That is exactly it.

[frank_D]

But I feel as if Frankd has some cognitive dissonance; saying what he thinks he should say, or should do or feel but then it's not at all what he does, and maybe isn't actually what he intends to do even as he's writing it...am I making any sense here?

My intentions are to do what I say I need to do. Too often it's 2 steps forward, one step back.

[25yearsmlc]

which also means expressing anger in a healthy way...correct?
Let's face it, as the child of an alcoholic, (i HATE that label, but like I said, it saves time, except when I then tell you how much I hate the label...anyhow...)
SO, I was terrified of my dad when he got angry, justifiably or not. In fact it was worse when he had a real reason b/c even when he was sober, since he was a "dry alcoholic" (see my past posts if you don't know what I use those terms for)
and never got healthy tools for expressing anger or any negative emotions, until much later in life, he'd "lose it." And lose it big. The whole neighborhood would hear him, or he'd say things so below the belt they' make your hair curl and he would have been banned from this site.

When my dad got angry, he hurt people, emotionally or physically or both. Period. He didn't have the tools...

So yeah, I get afraid when Frankd says he wants to be angry...and you guys egg him on as if you know what it'll mean for his daughters. Sorry, but that's my take on it.


( j )

[Jack_Three_Beans]

25 years.

: )

I agree with you. It's not all her fault.

Here is why I think it is bad for Frank.

Frank already punishes himself WAY in excess of his guilt. Like he likes it, makes me worry about him actually like some neurological problem, like cutting oneself.

Frank already holds Lorri on a pedestal, and ANY time he starts talking positive about her. He punishes himself again. Even if he starts defending her.

From my point of view, its like pouring sugar into his gas tank to get him moving if he is trying to move forward by being angry.

Some might not like this anger talk, but tell me, you like this side of Frank that doesn't do anything but whine without any action? No offense Frank.

I think defending Lorri is counter productive. Lets get Frank to B before we tackle G, right?

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Frank,

Have I ever said hit your girls, your wife, or yell at them, scream and throw things?

Assumptions...are bad.

[frank_D]

Frank,

Have I ever said hit your girls, your wife, or yell at them, scream and throw things?

Of course not, nor would I ever do such things.

Here is my morning 'anger' with D18. She was complaining about the dishes piled on the counter and the house being generally messy. She doesn't lift a finger unless I TELL her to.

So, instead of me just thinking I'm a bad housekeeper I told her that she is quite capable of cleaning and I'm angry when she dumps it on me as if I'm supposed to do everything. She replies that she does clean when I ASK her to. But I don't ask her to so she doesn't do anything.

Basically, it's my fault. And it was making me angry. I told her that she is quite old enough to make decisions to actually help around the house. And I am the one who does all the work to keep us housed and fed and she and her sister could take some responsibility.

After some more back and forth she suggested making a chore list and enforcing it. I agreed.

In the past I would internalized this and back off, thinking I was being a jerk.

[Jeff223]

BND and 25 - no reason for a 2X4.

You are confusing anger with aggression. Anger is telling you that something is wrong. It is a response to a hurt. It is part of the healing process that is described elsewhere on this site and other sites as one of the stages you go through before you hit acceptance.

To deny your anger is to deny the healing process.

Aggression is seldom very good as 25 posted. The DB coaches are correct that you don't show aggression towards W. That is "little boy" behavior. Just as important is the opposite of aggression (active), depression (passive). My post is to tell Frank and others that it is okay to use anger to get out of the passive - aggressive frame of mind.

Sort of along the lines that "I am fed up and I ain't going to take it anymore".

I second what Jack wrote above; he said it better than I.

Yes, it is semantics in a way but all we have here are words.

BND - some quotes:

but she was also pushed into this choice

I agree with Bill, No one pushed her into anything.

Both of them are equally to blame for the demise of the Marriage.

Agree. Trouble is the LBS often takes 100% of the blame until he or she evaluates the situation with a solid emotional base.

And now, when she wants to try and be responsible and help out because Frank is in deep doo-doo

How can you possibly know that? If she is as weak as you say she is how can she possibly help Frank do anything when she cannot help herself?

No, I would bet money it will be Frank who gets his act together with the realizations that he has posted over this past week. He will use his anger for growth.

I just wonder how W will respond? Remember last time?

How do you constructively use anger? By being assertive with W and his girls. By refusing to be a doormat. By setting boundaries and enforcing them. By refusing to give into depression. By refusing to blame. By refusing self-pity. By refusing to be a spoiled brat. By refusing to "get even". By refusing jealousy. By walking away from arguments. By refusing to be "right". By refusing to justify. By using courage to be the leader when a leader is called for. By being pissed enough to be the rock in the storm.

That is what I am saying. Hard to do, but Frank is up to the task. He is not in deep doo-doo and needs for W to save him. He is coming out of the tunnel. If he is half the man I think he is, he will not only survive, but thrive.

[Jeff223]

Here is my morning 'anger' with D18. She was complaining about the dishes piled on the counter and the house being generally messy.
I told her that she is quite old enough to make decisions to actually help around the house. And I am the one who does all the work to keep us housed and fed and she and her sister could take some responsibility.

After some more back and forth she suggested making a chore list and enforcing it. I agreed.

In the past I would internalized this and back off, thinking I was being a jerk.

You get it Frank. Keep doing that and your life will change.

[25yearsmlc]

Yes, words are all we have here.

I just wonder how W will respond? Remember last time?

We weren't there so no, we don't remember. We know what frankd tells us and what he says his d's say to him and there is inconsistency.



How do you constructively use anger? By being assertive with W and his girls. By refusing to be a doormat. By setting boundaries and enforcing them. By refusing to give into depression. By refusing to blame. By refusing self-pity. By refusing to be a spoiled brat. By refusing to "get even". By refusing jealousy. By walking away from arguments. By refusing to be "right". By refusing to justify. By using courage to be the leader when a leader is called for. By being pissed enough to be the rock in the storm.

That is what I am saying. Hard to do, but Frank is up to the task. He is not in deep doo-doo and needs for W to save him. He is coming out of the tunnel. If he is half the man I think he is, he will not only survive, but thrive.

[/quote]

This I agree with totally.

( j )