new to db'ing, my first post ...

[robx]

My name is Rob, I am new to this site and it's forums. I'll try not to be too verbose but hopefully won't leave much out.

I have been married for 8+ years, but together with my wife since 1991, we have 2 young children: 7yr old girl, 5 yr old boy. We have had a very rocky relationship the entire time so it makes me wonder if our current separation is just a signal that it's time to move on. We fight alot: if I'm up she's down, if I'm right, she's left - it just seems that we've never agreed on too many topics.

We have been separated for a year but sometimes it feels like we've been separated for longer than that.

My wife suffers from depression also, has been taking medication for it for the past 4-5 years, she also had post partem with both kids and speaking to a counsellor, she was told that she may be suffering from some sort of biological depression that she has been dealing with all of her life and truth be told I have known her since we were kids ourselves and I can remember that she would regularly just shut herself in her bedroom and just lie on her bed and be sad for long periods of time.

We both come from broken or nearly broken homes, both had parents that fought regularly all of our lives and I guess we're just repeating those same patterns that we've learned all of our lives.

We both love our children dearly and that is one difference from our own childhood family lives: we make sure to tell & show our children we love them on a daily basis, make sure they know that they are loved and be very active in their lives.

Early on in our relationship I made it known regularly that I loved her very much and was afraid to lose her and was afraid that I would never find someone else if we were to break up. I had very low self esteem, didn't think much of myself and allowed her to treat me poorly and never really stuck up for myself at all and I realize now because of this past year that I am at fault for "training" her (for lack of a better term) to treat me this way. My poor self-esteem was a product of childhood issues that I've only recently faced & tackled and finally getting over. If I have to admit, my self-esteem is at a good place now (ironically when we are separated), I love myself, treat myself well now, don't let others treat me poorly, I hang out regularly with my friends now (whereas before I acted like a hermit, never going out at all), I go to the gym regularly, I'm in the best shape of my life and go shopping and treat myself to good looking clothes and make taking care of myself a habit & priority whereas before I didn't.

I made alot of mistakes at the beginning of this separation a year ago and looking back I think to myself (UGGG!!!!) how could I have been that way but it happened and there is no changing it. I begged her regularly to take me back, pleaded with her, told her I loved her, told her I would change, told her to do it for the kids (guilt trip), moved out of the family home when she told me to but continued to pay for every bill, mortgage payment and visited the kids as per her schedule and in the end did everything that would push another person away and communicated that I had no self-respect for myself and showed that I had no self-value by being this kind of person: many of the typical mistakes a grief stricken low self-esteem man usually makes when his wife no longer wants him as a husband.

This year showed me change quite a bit and thankfully most of it was for me but truth be told, alot of it was done to get her to take me back. Went into counselling for my childhood issues, went into counselling for people going through separation/divorce. Started going out with my friends more, started taking better care of myself and started learning to love myself and to value myself. How can anyone be attracted to someone who doesn't value themselves and respect themselves? So although the work I did on myself was originally intended to get her to win me back, the momentum was maintained because I realized I wanted to do it for myself.

I'm not perfect yet and I don't think that's the intention either, personal contentment and always pressing forward is the goal, not perfection (no one's perfect).

I did notice that when I stopped paying attention to her and hanging on to her every call, txt msg, email and answering to her every whim that I actually got her attention. She called me more instead of the other way around, txted me more, took my time in replying, made my kids a priority without always including her in everything we did. I now have my children half of the time, I have joint custody of them, I take care of them just as well as she does (if not better) ;-) , take care of myself and my home and don't focus much on her. Detaching is difficult because I do still love her and want her back but ultimately I want the fighting to stop and the real love to begin.

I'm not there yet but the other day when she came over to drop the kids off, she had a tear in her eye and appeared a bit misty, she told me I looked good and appeared to be doing well, I wasn't depressed anymore and it didn't seem that I was affected by our separation. She gave me a hug (a strong one, something I hadn't felt in years literally) and a small kiss on the lips before she left to go back to her home - if I didn't know any better I would think she misses me (I have never felt that before so it is very odd). Am I reading to much into this?

I have ordered the books and will do what it takes to turn this around, can one person really turn a marriage around when the other person has told them in the past that they don't love you, the marriage was mistake, possibly didn't love you in the past, etc. etc. Any ideas on her missing me as what i've shown above.

Any & all feedback would be appreciated & welcome, good & bad. I look forward to contributing more (and learning the abbreviations).
... rob

[DownNotOut...yet]

DOOD! Can one person turn a marriage around?? Read what you just wrote. You telling us you haven't read the Divorce Busting books yet?? While your situation is going slowly it sure sounds like you are doing a great job of DB'ing, whether you know it or not. There are plenty of people who would be so greatful to have their spouse react the way yours did.

It sounds like she DOES miss you or at least is having second thoughts about it all. I would say stay the course and the next time she comes to drop off the kids, if you detect the same mojo from her, invite her to hang out a little. Nothing heavy, invite her for an ice cream, or to play a board game or watch a movie with you and the kids. Anything light. Sounds like she is digging you, the next step is showing her it is safe to be in your space again. Think of it like trying to get a squirrel to come eat out of your hand. You want her to trust you, that you expect nothing in return. NO sudden moves. You just want the squirrel (her) to see you won't hurt her and that she can come back for more.

To me you sound like a natural born Divorce Buster. Keep up the good work and keep us posted.

[spellfire]

First a few questions.

1. Is there or has there been anyone else involved with her?

2. Are you 100% committed to getting her back, or are you considering other options?

3. Are you willing to do the hard work even if she does very little, and not resent her for it if you do eventually get back together?

[SingleDad]

robx - you have been DBing better than myself. Newcomer - maybe you could give me advice instead.

I hope to be in your sitch by the time my separation is at the one year point.

The things that you are doing are working just great... keep up the good work.

[robx]

@ downnotout, I wish I was a natural divorce buster, I wouldn't be in this mess then. ;-) I have ordered the books, haven't rec'd them yet but I will read them when I do. I never viewed it the way you put it, it could be a huge trust issue, can she trust herself to be with me and can she trust me not to repeat the same behaviors which drove her away. Seriously the hug lasted like 5min and to be honest it felt pretty damn good, I hugged her back, I didn't just stand there and take her hug, I didn't want to let her go but didn't want to appear clingy either. Could it be just physical attraction and nothing more? Maybe I'm just analyzing this too much, she always blamed me for being too damn analytical, I think she's right, I can't get it out of my mind. She has sent me several txts after she left, talking about the relationship and then she asked if I was playing games with her and I told her it's been a long separation and I have no intentions of playing games and putting on different faces for different people, I'm me, just me, not pretending to be someone else. Thanks for the advice bro, I'll take as much as I can get.

@ spellfire: to be honest I don't know for sure if there has been anyone else during our separation or currently that she is involved with, but to be truthful I don't think so, I think I would have noticed but anything is possible but my gut intuition would be no, there is no one else.

Am I 100% committed to getting her back? Good question, you know I was to begin with but the funny thing about being separated for such a long time, you are no longer attached to the idea, if it happens, it happens. Maybe that's part of my problem, maybe I'm starting to give up. But doesn't detachment normally bring that type of feeling or maybe it's just a poor assumption on my part. Do I want her back? YES and honestly not just for my kids, I do love her, I've always loved her, and I will continue to love her always regardless of what happens between us. But she has some poor behaviors that I'm not sure that I can live with without bringing some poor behavior out of me - is that a cop out to admit that or maybe just a failure on my part that I still haven't dealt with? I know I've read that if she treats you badly, just take it and not because you're being a doormat (because I was one for a long period of time and it isn't good for your self-esteem or soul) but part of not being a doormat means setting boundaries for how people can treat you, maybe leaving the room if she starts to treat me/talk badly to me instead of rewarding her behavior with my attention.

Am I willing to do the hard work even if she does very little and not resent her for it if we do eventually get back together? Another good question, I have probably done things in the past and used it against her (I did this, this and that - why don't I get credit for that?) I'm still improving everyday, not perfect by any means but much better. I am willing to do the hard work and maybe that's it, I need to prove to myself that I did everything I could to save this marriage and if doesn't work, I will have no regrets and can forgive myself for my past failures as a husband.

Quick question to both of you and anyone else reading: is it possible that her long hug & kiss isn't because she loves me, maybe she just misses a small part of me or maybe it's just a physical thing? Don't we all need some physical affection, don't we all think about it daily, heck I'm a guy, I think about sex 90 seconds of every minute!

[robx]

another question, how do you deal with her family & friends that give her opinions to divorce, it's better, it's easier, you guys just fight all the time, etc. etc. Seriously, it's hard to compete with that, it's something I've struggled with forever it seems in our relationship, I could say the color is blue for example and she wouldn't pay attention but if a friend or family member says the same thing, she hears it and believes it, I hope my example makes sense. Am I showing that I'm needy if I want to listen to my opinions and give them as much weight as she does with her family & friends. Again, I can't compete with them, it's a huge struggle sometimes to hear her mention that so & so thinks this and she tends to agree but if I say it, it's like well I don't think so. Very frustrating to say the least.

[robx]

she will also mention regularly that because we've been fighting so long and have experienced failure so long, how could she ever believe we could be different and have a successful, happy marriage? Again, how do you answer that? Do you just agree so that you don't turn it into an argument? Plus it's bad to talk about the relationship even if she starts to talk about it because no matter how neutral you try to remain, she keeps knocking the relationship down so much, you feel you need to do something to defend it or yourself.

[DownNotOut...yet]

Well it could be just physical attraction (you big hot hunk of man you) but so? She is physically attracted to you then. I really, really think you were getting through to her at that moment and that made the big hug happen. Be prepared that she might now go the other way for a bit. I can't believe you haven't read the books. You are doing all the stuff they say to do.

To me, she is noticing the changes and likes the changes but is not convinced. She is testing the waters. Like my friend the squirrel, just don't make any sudden moves. It's like trying to land a 20 pound catfish on 5 pound test. Smooth, steady, finess.

You are not copping out to admit your bad behaviors. If you get her back, you guys will work on you bad behaviors together. DO have boundries. You got stepped on and punked out last time because you allowed it. So you know where that got you. Do it differently this time. You have nothing to lose and your self-respect to gain. THAT is much more attractive to ALL women.

Yeah, she could hug and kiss you just because she wants some. Be glad she wants some from you. Live in the moment, enjoy the now. Maybe analyze a bit less. It really sounds like a window of opportunity (sp?) is about to open for you.

[robx]

Thanks DownNotOut,
I am glad if she wants some from me, I don't think I was too much of a disappointment in that area and now being in great physical shape, taking care of myself, better clothes, different hairstyle, going out, looking & being happy & fun - may be these things are spurring some kind of physical attraction. I have seen her check me out and she kind of looked away but sort of smiled because she was caught in the act of looking. Last week when she dropped off kids, I was wearing a new shirt which she apparently liked, she kind of brushed her hand on my shoulder to brush away some imaginary lint or something. It's been a 1+ year separation, it could be just a physical thing. Again I'm being analytical, my brain is just working overtime on this one lately. What would I do if she proposes something like friends with benefits because she doesn't want to end the separation but is interested in me physically and wants to be physically intimate with me? Man that sounds dumb when I write it like that doesn't it? The male part of me says that if she wants that, take her by that hand, lead her to the bedroom and shag her senseless ;-) But then the other part of me that looks after my best interests say play hard to get and don't give it up so easily, don't be easy, make her chase you and work for it. Thoughts on this? Seriously I can literally see this happening in my head with her (and not because I'm just horny as hell myself while hiding very well).

[spellfire]

she will also mention regularly that because we've been fighting so long and have experienced failure so long, how could she ever believe we could be different and have a successful, happy marriage? Again, how do you answer that? Do you just agree so that you don't turn it into an argument? Plus it's bad to talk about the relationship even if she starts to talk about it because no matter how neutral you try to remain, she keeps knocking the relationship down so much, you feel you need to do something to defend it or yourself.

Disclaimer: Promise I'm not sexist, same applies to opposite sex but I am speaking to robx here.

My W said almost exactly the same thing. You will never be able to convince her by telling her. Actions truly do speak louder than words. The squirrel analogy is actually quite good. Try explaining to a squirrel that it's safe to eat out of your hand, it will never work. Now you are dealing with a squirrel you have previously scared. How long will it take to earn back that trust, and will words make any difference whatsoever?

Getting into a fight I consider action, because once tempers rise, the words don't really carry as much meaning as the way you are speaking to and therefore treating each other (disrespectful tone of voice etc).

When she says things like that, I believe she is not telling you "the writing is on the wall" as much as testing you to see if you really have changed. Your job is to prove (via action ie. not overreacting to hurtful comments) that you truly have changed and you can pass any test she presents.

Think of it this way...you are a wall. Women need to know the wall is strong, safe, and secure. Previously she found the wall was weak and she was able to punch holes in it at will with hurtful words. The wall would crumble (react) for the most part. now you have figured out why the wall is weak and have reinforced it, patched it, braced it...however you want to think of it, but the key being you have truly changed. She has surely noticed that the wall that let her down before is certainly looking much stronger. How does she know for sure though? She is gonna go test it out and see if she can punch those holes again.

Your job is to expect the punches, anticipate them and be ready to take them. Okay so here she comes with a good solid punch...
she wants to see if this wall is gonna hold for her...

"we've been fighting so long and have experienced failure so long, how could we be different and have a successful, happy marriage?" *insert batman style sound effect here*

Pretty hurtful thing to say to someone who is devastated by the separation. So what are you gonna do? React and get in a fight (old crumbly wall) or (knowing it is a test of your resolve and not necessary an assessment of the relationship) stand strong and prove you are no longer going to get sucked into the old patterns?

You asked if you have to agree so as to avoid conflict, and said it's hard to remain neutral when she's knocking the R so much. Reframe that assumption. She is not knocking the relationship, she is testing your resolve to truly be a different person.

When these kinds of comments come up, don't get mad. Realize you are "talking a little test". Feel those competitive instincts kicking in? You can pass this test. If you recognize it as a test of your resolve it doesn't feel nearly as bad. This has helped me tremendously in my R. I used to get sooo defensive, now I can defuse just about anything she throws at me. Not only is it a test to me, it has almost become a thrill, because it feels so good when you see the surprise on her face that you did not fall back into the old habits. One time my W got really upset, since she made all kinds of assumptions about how I would handle a certain situation. I stood strong, explained to her my position as she fought the tears, then without even asking or telling her, went over and gave her a big follow up hug. Minutes later she was on the phone taking care of the issue like nothing had ever gone wrong.

This is where boundaries come in. The wall analogy actually fits in rather well with boundaries too since it is one lol. Make your position known, just don't let her punch holes in your wall.

SF