When do the tears go away ?

[still hopeful]

whitney,

I, sir, GAVE you no support. I simply shined a spotlight on YOUR strengh, YOUR resolve, YOUR commitment, YOUR love.

Reading others' posts CAN be tough, unless you take a sense of camaraderie and togetherness with people who share your intense wish to save your marriage and re-unite your family by proudly displaying your integrity and love. Gather the strength in knowing that you are NOT alone. Post to others by sending them prayers or positive thoughts, whichever is your way of extending yourself.

Everyday, YOU wake up and YOU determine which rocks YOU haven't looked under to positively impact yourself and,by proximity, your loved ones. Keep your attitude positive. And if your day doesn't start out positve, figure out what is your best and fastest 'pick me up' to start your day out in your best way. Know that a bad day for you is a wonderful day for someone who faces greater challenges. Be grateful for the wonderul aspects of your life. Count your blessings. Be strong. Grow. Love.

I congratulate that you recognize that may you have worn out most of your friends. Know two things about your friends and loved ones: (1) they love you and care about you and want what THEY see as best for you; they don't want you to hurt; (2)they do have a limit to listening to the same story, especially when they have given you advice and you haven't followed it; (3) spreading the wealth of sharing your sitch (chapter by chapter, so as not to confuse who you told what) will make it less likely that you are over-sharing with someone in particular, but this also afford you the opportunity to think, organize thoughts, feel, and heal.

I am with your brother. Take care of you.

Tom

[whitneypinch]

Hi Tom,

So, since you have been doing this for 2 years longer than me I have a few questions.
Do you absolutely leave her alone, meaning no initiation at all? If you do initiate what is it in the form of?
Do you ask her questions about her life/relationships with other men?
In the 3 years have you initiated any R talk at all or have you just tried to be fun/positive in all interactions?

As I move forward I am curious about what has worked and what has not worked for you or have you just let time run it's course?

Do you do a lot of things with your kids? If so, does you W know about what you do? Do you invite her? Do you send her photos?

I am looking for specifics.

BTW I live in Ontario, Canada, but I am an American.

Thanks my brother

[whitneypinch]

This is a copy of a post I sent another dad that has a similar situation and background as us:

"Hey Healthydad,
I have been following your thread and have posted a couple of times.
You and I and another poster "still hopeful" have VERY similar stories. "Still hopeful" has been so fantastic with me I thought I would try and make an introduction. Have a look at some of his posts as it may be helpful to you.
I am going to copy this post over to "still hopeful" as well to see if we can't all unite on all of this.

Greg"

[still hopeful]

whitney,

Most of what you will receive from others is INSPIRATION, not MOTIVATION. You have plenty of motive to sort out your situation. Many times what I need is to be inspired again; to be infused with energy and re-focused purpose.

Yes, I have been at my reconciliation process 2 years longer than you have, but that does not mean that I have all of the answers in my situation and I certainly don't have them for yours. As my friend, frank_D, pointed out to me long ago, I know me, my wife, our history and our interactions, better than anyone else could possibly know them. You live your sitch. You can't possibly fill anyone else on ALL of the details of what happens between you and your wife. What does all of this mean? It means that you relate your sitch to others to the best of your ability, read others 'take' on your sitch, consider it all, and then apply your best conclusion to which decision is best applied in YOUR situation.

You will learn that some things work for others that don't necessarily work for you. You will also find that sometimes you are cautioned away from something that is appealing to you in YOUR sitch and that does work for you. Others' situations and experiences will apply directly to you. Some will not. Only YOU will know what you believe will fit. Only experience will tell you if your hunch is correct, and sadly we don't find out whether our hunch was correct or incorrect until AFTER the fact. One this that will come with YOUR experience is getting to know yourself, your wife and your sitch better than ever before.

Now, to answer your questions directly:
1. If you want to know what worked for me please re-read my posts slowly. Sadly, a year of intensive posting is missing from my previous thread. One thing I can tell you is that, to the best of my ability, I did not initiate much interaction because XW made a concerted effort to let me know that we would NOT reconcile. So...I didn't pass on activities that she invited me to attend with our children. I didn't pass on her requests for me to take our children on HER time so she could do what she wanted to do. I didn't TRADE time with her for her to recapture time with our children that she chose to pass on for other activities...still don't. I didn't pass on helping her pleas for emotional assistance which were generally brought on by her own poor decision making. THIS is one area where I always stepped up and wish the ALWAYS was 'regularly' instead of ALWAYS. Always gave away my power and facilitated her present lack of knowledge of what it feels like to 'really' be in danger of losing me. It's impossible for her to have that feeling since I have repeatedly shown her that I am ALWAYS there for her.

2. I spend time with my children. We talk a lot. I give them ME. I don't make them share me with other people. This has worked well for me and them. On top of that, giving them ME is inexpensive. XW plans a lot of activities and play dates with children's friends (and with XW's girlfriends). What play dates really are are play dates for XW with XW's friends; the children off entertaining one another and the mom's face to face with each other. XW also very quickly introduced her DHs to our children and incorporated her spending time with her new DH with spending time with her children. Of course, our children felt short changed with this DH arrangement; they had to share mom's attention. The end result of that is that over the 3 years that XW and I have been apart, XW tells me that she 'really misses' her children and wants to come and see them on MY time with them and I ALLOWED THIS! UGH!

This is another area where I faltered in being a man in SHOWING her what the separation/divorce that SHE wanted so badly really looks like, because I have protected her from really experiencing it because of my own fears and reconciliation wants and needs. Boundaries are key. What I am working to change is to establish my boundaries and hold myself and XW to them. I have the option of allowing her inside of my boundaries, but if I do allow that, her behavior must be in keeping with the type of behavior that I allow towards me inside of my boundary. In the past, I didn't even put up 'fence posts' to erect my boundaries that she might run into by chance. Nope, with regards to her, I didn't even get those up. I all other aspects of my life I have very apparent boundaries that I keep to and hold others to. As HER mother once told me very early in our sitch, "You keep allowing her to walk all over you. She can't respect a doormat. Stand up for yourself." Three years into this, I wish I had changed my behavior back then, but since I can't change the past in any situation, I am changing my behavior going forward. Be standing up to my XW my end up being the death knell for my reconciliation wishes, because doing it the way that I have been is only killing it more slowly and painfully, which is worse for everyone involved.

With all of that said, XW has often called me up to participate with her in activities with our children. I do invite her to do 'stuff' with us, but she is the entertainment and activity mom. I usually do participate with her. Unfortunately, I have often chalked up her invitations to me as her simply wanting to connect with me. This is an area where I have perhaps misinterpreted her invitations because they are often preceded by semi-regular venting and verbal attacks on me. I suppose that watching sometimes can mislead me in deciphering XW's reasons for doing what she does.

Yes, I do send her digital photos to enjoy by e-mail.

--------------------------------------

Now which actions have I done that I am happy with in my sitch?
A. I am still taking a deep, critical look at myself and making sweeping changes in my previously not so positive outlook on life. In response to finding aspects of myself that are less than admirable, I look for information that I can implement to better myself. I realize that I don't have ALL of the answers.
B. I realize that even though I didn't cause ALL of the problems in my marriage, I did cause a good portion by making poor decisions because of fear brought on by my poor self-image. No excuses, but I didn't know what I didn't know and I didn't know myself well enough to understand that just because I didn't have the answers to make a better me didn't necessarily mean that those answers don't exist. I take responsibility for the damage that I contributed over time the the deterioration of our relationship over time. I also understand that I can't change the past, no matter how much I wish I could.
C. I have learned to stand up to XW's tirades and verbal attacks by staying calm and responding in a rational, even way. This type of response is different than how I chose to REACT before and it makes her madder. Once I respond, I tell her that I think it's time for me to go and I leave.
D. I've begun to be less emotionally invested in XW's self-destructive displays which used to really wreak havoc on my emotional well-being. I don't care any less, I have been gathering the strength to corral my emotions and stay within myself.
E. I have grown stronger in NOT initiating contact with XW. She has responded by initiating contact. Unfortunately, often that contact has come with my gaining more knowledge of XW's activities that I find hurtful.

Things that I have done not-so-well in my sitch:
A. I have reacted strongly and poorly to XW's self-destructive behavior. I have often taken her behavior personally, rather than simply continuing to disengage. I believe that I have unnecessarily prolonged my sitch be failing here.
B. I have intermingled my feeling for my children with my feelings for my XW. Working on changing this.
C. I haven't focused enough on me and my well-being when I am not caring for my children because I have repeatedly chose to divert my focus to my XW and her life. Often, when XW has the children, she will call me and ask for my help with them. I have usually responded by interrupting my time alone to go and help her with the children, but who was I kidding? I wanted to be for her and do for her because I had the misguided hope and expectation of my doing for her bringing us closer to being together again. I am still struggling with even feigning being busy. I am still struggling with staying focused on MY necessary activities.
D. I haven't kept a journal of ALL of XW's shenanigans. I haven't kept an accurate of all of her lies. This journal would simply be convenient to have to refer to XW's questions about her behavior when she is asking for specifics. Since I still haven't started this journal, and I have chosen not to memorize the dates/times/deeds, she simply dismisses what I share with her. Remedy? Starting today, I will journal everything to reply honestly and accurately with evidence to support what I tell her. No value in doing this except that she will be less likely to dismiss what I say about her behavior when it is backed by specific evidence.
E. I still haven't let go. As Phoenixdeux told me:

Letting go doesn't mean it's over...it just means you quit pining away and start to look at her as your EX wife.

I tell you, whitney, being married is tough enough. Working to reconcile one's marriage is even tougher, especially when you re doing ALL of the lifting alone. I am working to let go, even though I am not giving up. I know that either way, I will be fine and my children will be great.

I know this was a lot of writing, but YOU posting and sifting though responses to find which one's ring true with you and yours is critical for YOU to make your decision about YOU. So...post more about you. Keep us all posted about whatever details happen your life alone, with your children and with all of you together.

Have a great day, Greg.

Tom

[whitneypinch]

Well, in some way I am try to let go as well.

I had a great conversation with a close friend last night. I had been beating myself up that 75% of this was my fault. Of course we know it's 50/50. My friend pointed out that she feels actually most of this was my wife’s fault for never speaking up. Listen I am not interested in blame here. The truth is we both messed up. It just was nice to get a positive re-enforcement that I am pretty awesome the way I am and was.

I, like most of you have trouble seeing what I WAW is searching for, but that is her journey.

I have been getting better with starting the process of letting go. I have noticed when I leave my WAW alone that when she does contact me she is kind. When I contact her she is cold and short with me. Sooooo, I just won’t contact her anymore.

I get my kids in a few hours and am sooooo excited. I have them for a week. That is not usual for me but my WAW is on one of her new mini vacations. She has done this 3 times in the last year. It used to bother me now I just turn it around and know how fortunate I am to have my kids. I have noticed that my kids seem to be closer to me than her. I am not keeping the score but know this is because of the fantastic one on one time I spend with them. My W has a nanny and the nanny does many things "for" the kids.
I am so fortunate that I have the relationship that I now have with my kids. Just so damn sad that W never get to see this. She only remembers the family time as me being stressed out and selfish. I am 100% opposite to that now. I just did not feel that when we were all together as a family. Some of us are slow to get those feelings.

Anyway, as I have less contact with my W I find that it actually gets easier and I am able to concentrate more on my own life. Sadly, the less contact I have with her also let's me feel her slipping further and further away into her new life. But I can't know what is going on in her head and in her life. I do see some inconsistencies so I know she must have some struggles.

Another day goes by....

[whitneypinch]

uh oh.....
I had been doing really well for a few days.
I have had my kids since Tuesday so I am happy. The problem is when I have the kids I really miss my W. She and I emailed each other back and forth on Tuesday night. It was light fun and nice. I have not heard from her and I am wanting too.
Man, I just wish we could be a family again. I just will never get how my W does not even want to talk about it. But that is why we are all here....

[cz946]

Hi Whit,

I too know what you mean. Some of my hardest days are the ones that I have my d. Especially after she goes to bed. I spend the rest of the night thinking about xw.

"I just will never get how my W does not even want to talk about it. But that is why we are all here...."

In my case my XW tried. It was me that didn't want to recognize there was a problem. So I am guessing your XW probably tried before ever mentioning a word about D. Basically she tried and it didn't work, so she has written this part of her life off. I am guessing yours did as well!!! I have read your post and you seem to put most of the blame on her. Maybe she senses that, and that why she's not talking.

My XW is willing to talk about R and we do almost everytime we are together. Sometimes positive and sometimes negitive. Which I will work to change, I want her to remember the good things. She is always clear in stating that its both are faults and she can't go back. She always says she wants to be my friend and that it. She as moved on. This hurts, but its expected, she is protecting her hurt.

I get advise from family & friends all the time. They say I should cut all communication. Show her its all or nothing. I don't know what road to take. I have tried in the past to cut communication and find that I am to weak. She sends me a txt after a few days and I respond. And its usually something about d5, but that gets the communication going, and i want more.

The one thing that I have learned with the LRT is that she is much better at them than me. I am always wanting more, but she is in the drivers seat. My XW has stated that she felt alone for two years and abandoned. So I worry about cutting off all communication, thinking that this would only validate what she thought all along.

So I say, send your xw a txt. Just to say hi. Maybe she'll respond maybe not. I would leave it at that though, don't push.

Just a thought!

Good luck man, be strong and do some good today!!
CZ

[whitneypinch]

Well....yep...that is exactly the same situation as me. I actually have shown her I was at fault, worked on changing everything that I can and apologized. But I get the similar speech as you do. Anytime R talk has come up I get the "you let me down so badly that I fell so far out of love with you that I don't have the will or desire to fall back in love". She then says she recognizes all the wonderful changes in me as well.
So, for me I continue on my path working so hard to be a great father and to be as nice and considerate as I can with her.
As most of us start to realize the journey is really for our WAW to make. They are having their own demons to work through.
I just emailed my W to ask her if it's alright to get my daughters hair cut short. My D has asked for that. My W was very nice and said it would be fine and ended her email with a smiley face. When I leave her alone she usually contacts me over an issue with our kids and is very nice. I just can't seem to move things further than that. It has been a year and there has not been a single word towards our situation at all.
It's just so hard to be finally experiencing all the wonderful things that life has for me and the kids and to not have her with us.
It's as simple as that. I miss my family being all together

[cz946]

The reward will be worth all the hard work and effort you've given in the end. Stay focused.

[whitneypinch]

I am with you but sometimes we just miss our W and family so much. I wish our W knew how much we missed tham and that it mattered.