When do the tears go away ?

[lovenomatterwhat]

hey whitneypinch,

I don't really know what to say to be honest with you, but hang in there. In the very beginning, when my wife told me that she wanted to divorce me, I was in so much pain. I couldn't concentrate on the job, I was always crying, couldn't sleep, etc. I hated the weekends because at least Monday through Friday I could be somewhat distracted with work. I remember getting in my car and just driving for hours around town, crying and wishing that the pain would go away. These first few months are going to be tough - but you will get through this.

Remember, time is on your side. Ultimately, all of us are looking to love and be loved. Your wife at the moment for whatever reason is at a place where she doesn't feel or trust that she can have that with you. Your goal here has to be to maximize every opportunity you have with her to show her that you have her best interest at heart - that you really want her to be happy - even if that means happiness without you. Again, this is going to take time, especially since you don't have a lot of interactions with your wife at the moment. That is all the reason why to really make whatever moments you have with your wife a positive one.

In many ways, getting back with our wives is sort of like being single again and trying to get women to notice you. The key here is that you have to be attractive. And by attractive, you have to demonstrate and truly have the qualities that you know your wife wants in a man. Little things matter here (is your car clean, are you taking better care of yourself/working out, more upbeat and confident, etc). Also, this is a great opportunity to work on your character. What other qualities must you have to be the type of man that your wife (and any other good woman) would want? I also think that it is great that your relationship with your kids has gotten better. Keep up the good work there.

I would continue to read up on this forum and to learn as much as you can. In the end, this process is going to be about two things I think.

#1 - learning to love your wife unconditionally, even if that means you never get her back

#2 - learning to work on yourself (ultimatley, this DB thing is about saving ourselves in hope that we save our marriage)

I am still learning and if you've read any of my posts lately, I too get pretty down at times. That said, you never know what time, determination, and prayer can do. I wish you the best of luck here and keep the posts going. Remember - there is always hope

[still hopeful]

whitneypinch,

I too have family and friends who have grown tired of hearing my saga because I have not done as they have instructed me to do, thus, in their minds, I am stuck because I choose to be stuck with the emotions that I have. I suppose from a purely clinical and antiseptic point of view they would be right, but I view the human mind and heart as a bit more complex than simple mathematics, or even very complex mathematics. I try to figure me out every day with the help of the Lord. I often lean on Him hard and often there is only One set of footprints in the sand. He carries me when I cannot move forward myself and when I am able, I follow along working to bring His will to be.

I commend your efforts in improving yourself as a dad and as a man. Children are the greatest gifts from God. Pure joy. Remember, effort makes us both smarter and better people. It all starts with knowing what you want and putting in the effort to make what you want come to be. GREAT BOOK: The five Love Languages of Children by Chapman and Campbell. I will suggest more later. You can probably find this at your local library.

I always want to include my XW in anything our children and I do. I can't remember excluding her except to take our children out to visit my/their side of their family. XW knows she is NOT welcome. Too much water under the bridge for right now. Additionally, I always talk glowingly about XW to our children. They are not my counselor and I remember that. They are our children.

Yes, XW and I have both missed firsts. The peril of being separated/divorced. I was there for D8's first tooth loss (wife was bent) and was unfortunately there for S3's first 3 stitches on his 3rd birthday. I also go out of my way to share funny stories and happenings with XW by VM or text so she doesn't miss out unnecessarily. Basically, I try to go out of my way to do the right thing because I dug myself a HUGE hole with my stupid mistake sooooo, I gotta lotta makin' up to do still to prepare the ground for even the potential of a reconciliation. I'm up for it. I know Jesus talks to my heart and I follow my heart, despite how crazy those around me think I am.

Here's a blow up story about my XW. We celebrated S3's 3rd birthday at her house. XW was drinking ALL day and that spells disaster almost always. I was there having a good time and XW asked me to watch some of the children in the pool. XW also asked me to put up the pool fence for her. I agreed to both and the girls quickly exited the pool so I walked around the side of the house and picked up the pool fence (pop-in kind)and brought it back around to install.

I was installing the pool fence and her/our previous neighbor came out to talk with me for a minute. I realized I didn't grab both portions of the fence barrier and moved it to the other side. Mind you, all of this took maybe 10 minutes. Neighbor and I continued our friendly chit-chat and I told her I needed to get the other piece of the fence, so I walked around the house.

It's probably a 5-7 minute walk to grab the fence and walk back, and when I got back XW was trying to grab the fence from my hand and tell me to get out of her house. I told her, "I told you I'd put it up and I will." She insisted that I just get out. Puzzled, and knowing alcohol consumption is in play, I tell her that I am going to round up our children and leave. She then begins to tell me that they want to stay with her, and she is holding S3 and D8 is sitting right next to her and she goes on a swearing rant about how she can't believe that I and neighbor (who is married) are having an affair.

After remaining calm, while gathering our children's belongings XW's "good friend" (male, of course) comes over to me to try to talk ME down and to tell me that HE is not going to stand by while I yell at XW again! Again remaining calm, I simply told him if you want to be helpful, help me find my children's belongings and we'll be out of here. He didn't, but I got our stuff and we left without further incident.

In my situation, a third person is rarely part of the mix, but the dynamics are basically the same. Alcohol consumption only makes it all worse. After I left, I spoke with neighbor and her husband, and neighbor filled me in that when I went to get the 2nd piece of fence around the house, XW came after her, verbally attacking her in the presence of her D8 and S1. I was completely unaware of this, as I was not anticipating talking to neighbor further when I arrived back with the 2nd piece of fencing. Total craziness, but I have become so much better at remaining calm in the face of a raging storm. For me, calm is the key to being able to respond rather than to react in kind and escalate the situation.

I have gained a great deal of insight about communicating with and interacting with women at David Cunningham's www(dot)[censored](dot)com. Check this out. It will open your eyes and help you to understand your W better. It will also help you to understand your own errors that YOU have made in the past. Helps me daily.

The difficulty you are going to have in communicating with her is that you have soooo few opportunities. Read David Cunningham's material and prepare for your next opportunity, as you have so few chances to make a positive impact on her.

I know that I did what I did in my M. And yes, I do have to live with what I have done, but I firmly believe that my remorse is sufficient to wash me of my sin, but her choice and continued choices will only lead to guilt, which is much more powerful and hurtful. But that is another story line, as I was taught today that I must NOT keep score about who does what. Keeping score is completely counterproductive to staying solution-based and reconciling.

Today again, I was reminded that her anger and her hurt are most likely for deeper and far more painful than I have even imagined. I was counseled to be kinder than she is. I was counseled to keep harsh, cutting remarks to myself.

My friend, neither you nor I are going to be getting a purple heart for working on ourselves to improve ourselves. Neither of us is looking for a medal. Both of us are looking for the opportunity to reconcile with our wives and to make our families whole again.

I believe that I understand how much you love your W. I believe I understand your pain and sorrow. What I can tell you is that your W 'fell' in love with you once, and she can certainly 'fall' in love with you again. YOUR work is to figure at how to trip her attraction triggers by BEING different in a masculine, leading way whenever the opportunities present themselves.

I cannot urge you enough to read David Cunningham's blog/e-mail starting today. The more time you give yourself to read and digest the material AND put it to work, the better. The fabulous thing about this material is that you can practice on female friends, co-workers, clerks at stores, fellow female shoppers in the grocery store. Yes, it's aimed at those in long term relationships, but you can practice the banter with someone you just met or practice more involved conversations with other women in your life.

Lastly, my XW started dating as soon as she found out about my mistake. She has had 4 separate BF's and all of them were disastrous relationships. I cannot remember who wrote this, but it was aimed at men wanting to get back together with a past lover/wife. The advice was simple. KNOW that you are the best choice for her. Work on your confidence to exude that confidence, but not in an arrogant way. In a knowing way. THAT is what I have used to keep me strong as I have watched the parade of men she has invited into her life and my children's.

But I digress, when the opportunity arises to DO for her, know what you are going to do. Only YOU know your right answer. I have generally chosen to DO, and my friends cringe at my actions.

I wish you well. Take care of you and your children. Do things for yourself to bolster you confidence and self-esteem. Be a man, but make sure you are a GOOD man.

Tom

[whitneypinch]

Thank you all for the guidance.
I have started reading all the resources you have mentioned.
I have come to realize that my ex W fell out of love with me as I became weak and insecure. When she met me I was an Alpha male and through a number of situations became needy, critical etc.
There is a piece here that sometimes I think is glazed over. When we became weak, critical etc. did our wives show us any compassion? Did they say to us "hey, what's the matter, are you ok"? I can tell you my W did not. She was critical to me and really never said anything until she fell out of love.
It's takes 2 to mess things up, yet we are blamed 100% for the breakdown in our marriage.
Yes, we will all try our best to rekindle the feelings but as we all know they will come back to us if "they" want to. We can't do much about that.
My W is spending so much time on dating etc. She is just like the rest in that she has a million sayings about how the kids will be fine etc.. There is a lot to be said about their character. Yes, we all love our WAS and do our best to try to fix things but there has to come to a point where we say "we are doing it all and they are doing nothing". We at least need some them doing some work. Yes, I know they worked for years and we let them down.
I guess I am just venting some frustration right now !!!
Boy, it sure would be great if our WAW would just pick up the phone and say "I am hurting, you really hurt me, but I care about this family and our marriage" How many of us got that speech? Not too many. Most of us got the "I want a divorce" speech.
Someone say something nice today.....I am not feeling so great towards my ex right now.....what a roller-coaster, and I want off.

[still hopeful]

I hear you. In my case, my W told me she had lost attraction for me. Sadly, I didn't understand what she was talking about because I didn't understand that MEN generate attraction for themselves in women, primarily by just BEING a man: having a MISSION in life and insuring that your decisions for your life revolve around that mission, LEADING her and the family, being decisive, but not dominating or domineering, having an opinion and voicing it, COMMANDING respect by who you are and how you behave. Much of what I'm talking about can be found in David Cunningham's daily e-mail/blogs. Read it, re-capturing your more attractive self and/or improving on who you are is your gift to you, regardless of which fruits your efforts will bear.

I completely understand becoming weak and insecure, topped off with a big helping of being critical, but THAT was who you were for a time and not who you ARE. Your attitude is 100% up to you. Who you become is 100% up to you. How much you learn about the inner workings of being an Alpha Male again (and yes, this is a behavior pattern that CAN be learned and honed with some effort).
Check out doctorpaul(dot)net for some great material about getting a handle on being a better you. Insightful and helpful.

No, my XW didn't come to me in a way that I grasped in order to tell me that our M was in trouble, she simply did what she knew how and left it at that. Looking back now, I can see that this was a situation of not knowing what you don't know you don't know. As I said earlier, I didn't understand it either because I wasn't following a 'playbook' to get her to be attracted to me or to 'fall' in love with me. I was just being me and since I REALLY didn't understand anything about my triggering her attraction for me, I was clueless.

I didn't get the 100% my blame talk with regard to the failing of the marriage. My XW was much more kind. She told me that was 99% of the problem, and she was maybe, heavy emphasis on maybe, 1% of the problem. In my healing, marital and relationship research and 'being a man' reading, I have come to grasp that I contributed 50% of the problems which contributed to the deterioration over time, either through neglect, stupidity, or both. By the same token, SHE contributed as different 50%, but 50% all the same.

All of the work in finding myself again led to a troubling patters in me that some kind posters pointed out to me because I was blind to my own continuing mistake. That mistake is KEEPING SCORE. I regrettably cheated on my XW and she is understandably and rightfully angry, hurt and mistrusting of me. Although the terrain of our M made the mistake more palatable at the time, I know the A was wrong then, it'd be wrong today, and most certainly wrong tomorrow. No excuses. No real reasons that matter. Simple ignorance, selfishness and cowardice.

My XW has dated a string of men. Since she and I see each other or talk on a regular basis, and since she introduces these men to our children (<-- I have a problem with this mostly), I have held to the certainty that I am her best partner. I have worked to change positively I have learned a great deal. By the same token, I know that she hasn't grown at all, and perhaps isn't likely to grow. But knowing this is not keeping score in the way that I had. It's simply knowing that I want her back with some growth and positive changes to complement my growth. Taking our old M back without changes in both of us is simply a recipe for disaster and more heartache for everyone.

Let's walk this path together. NO keeping score. Keep our 'wishing' to a minimum. Focus on improving ourselves and making ourselves the best possible men we can become to bring someone new (ourselves) to a new marriage. We can save our M by ourselves. I view this as my keeping the door open to the possibility of reconciling with my W, whom I still love dearly. Based on what you write, I would guess that you love your XW. She, like my XW, lost faith in us, lost attraction for us, and lost respect for us.

But this is where the rubber meets the road. If you were DONE, you wouldn't be here. Talk to positive people. Read positive information. Pray. Be positive. Remember that rollercoaster has UPs as well as downs, end eventually it does stop. Be ready for that. Have your own attitude in the right place. Don't keep score.

Good luck, my brother,
Tom

[whitneypinch]

Hey Tom,
I wish you were a woman !!! I would marry you.
My god, your situation and mine is so similar.
I do have contact with my W about every few days. 2 days ago she was texting me about a really cute story about my 4 year old son.
Today I had to speak to her about some problems my son was having at school. She said all he wants to do is play and does not want to do his work. She then said sounds like someone else I know. Of course that was directed right at me. When we got off the phone I sent her a text saying "I hear you 100%, trust me I do". She sent back a smiley face reply. I texted her back saying I have a really cute story to tell you about our daughter. W texted me back saying she was busy right now. I must have triggered her again as she does not want to hear the story yet 2 days ago shared a cute story about my son.
It may be because it's Christmas and I have the kids, and our divorce is final in 2 weeks.
The truth is she has some under-lining anger still. I just wish I could draw it out of her.
I think she will carry it around forever and that is the end of all of this. Sadly I don't think my W has learned a single thing through this at all either. She has kept herself busy and going and going through all of this. I don't believe she has faced this yet, and maybe is just starting to now as it is really over.
I agree with you about the fact we did what we did as that is what we knew at the time. We both messed up.
Sure would like us to at least spend some time together to see how we feel. Are our 2 kids not worth that, apparently not.
I sure can see getting to the point where I will say "I deserve to be happy, I deserve to be with someone that appreciates me".
Not happy today and just venting somemore.

[whitneypinch]

oppps, W just called and we swapped stories about the kids. It was nice to talk to her. It's just weird that she seems to just feel nothing for me at all. She just seems to be sooo busy.
Just wish she would settle down and spend some time with me. Just feel like I am in the friendship zone. oh, wait...that's a good thing I guess.
You know...what we are all looking for here is just some hope that w still has some feelings for us.

[still hopeful]

Listen brother, it is good to vent here; NOT at her. Hopefully when you are not here venting your are spending your time reading great material or doing fun things.

Some food for thought: you may want to tell HER that you are too busy to hear a story and find out a convenient time to call her back because you DO want to hear the story. With my XW, I refuse to have conversations by text or e-mail. If she starts the conversation in those way, I simply CALL her back immediately. Has worked for me thus far.

Your XW is hurting and/or angry about SOMETHING still. Do not badger her about what her issue is. Be strong; be a man; let her know you are available when she is ready to let it out, no expectations and no demands. DO NOT chase her as much as you want to do so.

You do deserve to be happy. Make YOURSELF happy. Enjoy your children. If it's convenient, invite your XW along with NO strings and NO expectations. Tell her she can take her own car if she wants. Make all of your interactions with her different; better. Show her who you ARE, don't remind her of who you WERE. You are simply working to overwrite the negative stuff that piled up in your R with new positive experiences.


In my situation, XW says she has forgiven me for my mistake, but what she DOES tells me that she has NOT forgiven me. I think that she thinks that forgiving is forgetting. I've patiently explained it's not. End result is that there are still more underlying issues for her between us. What those are I do not know, but I know that it is a possibility that her underlying problems were pre-existing and my mistake only exacerbated them.

I haven't really chased XW from the beginning. She has always been the one who initiates coming over to my place to be with the children. When I haven't heard from her, I have to fight all of my urges to be the one initiating contact, although sometimes it's necessary. I always tell XW when she calls to see our children that when our children are with me and she is, of course, always welcome. I lead a simple adult. I have women in my life, but I have made it clear that my XW calls and does come to visit. Rarely, have I spent any time with a woman and my children and when I have, this person is always introduced as my friend and expected to act as such in my children's presence.

From all of the stories I have read on DB, the dynamics of our roles would make it seem as though she would be the one who wanted the reconciliation and I was off in left field picking dandelions. Appearances deceive sometimes.

Additionally, my XW has dated lots, as well. THAT is her way of NOT having to think and feel. Running is more fun and keeps the yucky feelings away. It's easier to NOT think, deal and feel. i do believe that her self-destructive lifestyle and poor decision making are aimed at me; to hurt me. As I said, it is really my job to stop keeping score and to continue clearing peoples and weeds from the runway and make it safe for a coming home landing.

Work on making yourself as attractive to the opposite sex as you are able. That WILL have a wonderfully positive impact on your
XW and on your efforts to reconcile and make your family whole again.

Read, my friend. Lots of great information exists in the world for men like you me and you. However, it's generally best to get a review of information from friends, family and co-workers, so as not to waste your money unnecessarily.

I have suggested a bit of reading to you already. Delve in. Digest it. Put it to work. Have fun. Be happy. Love your children. Love yourself. Love you X. DO NOT keep score! Be the best you that you can be at this point in your life.

<Big hug to you, Brother>
Tom

P.S. No, I won't marry you.

[whitneypinch]

Tom,

Again you have hit the nail on the head !!!
You are just further along than I am with my X. I have cleared the way for her to join us with the kids. I do a lot of great fun adventures with my kids. It's part of who I am. I am really passionate for life. I have asked and she says she wants to come but had other plans. I think it's her way to not look bad. That is her personality as a "pleaser".

My W too dated a lot of people before me. In fact I think she is most happy doing that. She get’s to have fun and not dive deep. The truth is my W has done a ton of reading and really explored herself so sometimes it does not make sense.

I have been reading like crazy as well since this happened a year ago. In fact in the last 2 days I have read most of the stuff you suggested from the websites. My god, I just learned so much more about being a man. I NEVER had a role model growing up at all. Looking back I have realized that I stopped being a man with her. We have a ton of complicated situations around that but it does not matter. What matters is getting that back.

You know my W has said she forgave me a long time ago but clearly her actions speak that she has not.

Man, I don't know, this is crazy the amount of work and reading required. I guess it's all worth it or we would not be here as you have said.

My W and I were texting and I slipped in a flirt. I have done this maybe twice in the last year. She shut me down the two other times. So far she has not shut me down yet today but I will see. I am so lusty for my W. I have not been with another women in the last year, nor am I ready or wanting that.
My kids are my ideal date.

I am will you 100% about changing up the communications. I too am going to make a point to talk to her on the phone more. She and I have said we like that better. She and I have been texting 99% of the time in the last year. It has calmed things down a bit but it's time to talk on the phone. It's hard to hear her sound so distant though. I miss my W’s sweet talk to me which of course is gone now.

What do you mean by this: "From all of the stories I have read on DB, the dynamics of our roles would make it seem as though she would be the one who wanted the reconciliation and I was off in left field picking dandelions. Appearances deceive sometimes."?

It's also funny, my W has done a few destructive actions over the last year and made sure I knew about them. Why is it that they do that?

[whitneypinch]

I was thinking about your situation....
You are very fortunate that you W wants to spend time with you and your kids. That is a huge positive sign. I believe you just have to keep doing the work and reel her in.
I read about so many people in that situation on these boards.
That is the situation I would love to be in.
My W just has not made any moves at all in that direction. It is her boundary. She knows I will have hope if she does that. I guess I have to neutralize the situation so she feels safe to join us.
Blaaahhhh....I just want to give my W a hug and say..."let's get down to work and make this great".. Clearly that is not in the cards

[still hopeful]

whitney,


Whatever you (or most probably both of you did) to contribute to the overall deterioration over time is something that cannot be changed.

The only thing you can do is work the mound of clay that God made into your mind and body into something that you and your loved ones would be proud to be associated with. God gave you the tools, you must utilize those tools to CHOOSE to make the best you possible. You may want to pray that He gives you the love, guidance, vision and skill to make the best you that He intended you to be even before you were conceived.

Focus on YOU and your children. THAT is where the best investment of your time will lie. Be like a skilled farmer; prep your soil (mind, body, and spirit), plant seeds at the best time of your life (NOW would be good), water your toil, and reap your bountiful harvest of an abundant spirit, mind and body. Your abundant life will also reap your abundant confidence and your help you to determine WHAT is important to you which will delineate the path for your life's mission with a surveyor's precision. With a goal, your life's activities will be meaningful because they will be in line with accomplishing your mission. You WILL be happier. You will have a purpose. You will be more confident with YOUR chosen destination and mission. You WILL be more attractive to everyone, including your XW and children. At a minimum, if XW continues to stay lost, your work on your will be your gift to yourself and your loved ones. On top of that, this new YOU will be your gift to your XW should she choose to take advantage of the opportunity to reconcile or to the new life partner you choose.

On thing that my friend here, Frank_D reminded me of, was that SHE does not hold ALL of the cards. I (and you) hold an equal number and should our XW's choose to desire to work on reconciling our marriages, WE still have the ultimate say as to whether or not that is in our best interests based on what they have done to improve themselves and thus ADD to the marriage. I know that as of right now, I would not be able to take my XW back because she has a lot of self-improvement work to do on her own. Taking her back as she is, which is substantially how she was, is only a recipe for disaster; a step back.

You and I are very similar in HOW we deal with our XW's. I changed some actions in myself to help facilitate her coming to me and not running from me. I let her open up, but simply validate her story and feelings ONCE. I have taken to simply closing down the conversation gently. David Cunningham advises something better, he advises the man to simply tell her that, " I really feel like this is getting into girlfriend territory, and I don't want to go there. Why don't you call up your girlfriend and go over this until you have run down the emotions of all of this and when you are ready to resolve this issue, I am here for you." He's more eloquent in saying that, but that's the gist. He's very good at dropping seeds in our minds so that we will be able to reap our abundant harvest at the right time.

My XW is the queen of the 6 month relationship. The friendly bet among people who knew her long before I did was that our M would last 2-4 months, but certainly no more than 6 months. Well, before our split, we had made it to 6 years. I see that as a HUGE positive, as all of her recent "relationships" have lasted less than 6 months except for the criminal, DH#3, who lasted almost a year, but 6+ months of that he was in jail and they were really solidifying their relationship writing daily jailhouse 'love' letters. As I said, she runs and runs in her self-destructive sprint to avoid thinking, feeling, and dealing with reality. Plus she has LOTS of "good friends" (I choose to use FINGER QUOTES when I say that phrase) who are male, most of which are ex-BFs and lovers and simply chase her around trying to get in her panties.

She loves the attention. She had a year of counseling to deal with her self-esteem issues after DH#3, and decided to quit. I looked at her and said deadpan, "So, you're cured? She just walked away, but my comment was simply to let her know that I KNOW her and I know when she is trying to BS me and herself. She said she no longer looked to men for approval. She has sought mens' approval through sex since she was 13; still does. But for those who see her only on occasion, who only know her on a superficial level, and who buy her 'truths' as gospel, it would seem true, as she certainly can be convincing. I simply know that often her actions don't reconcile with her words and her actions tell me what she truly thinks, feels, wants, and wants. Actions speak much louder than words, and in her case, words don't speak loudly at all.

Now, despite all of this; knowing her flaws and mine, I still love her and I believe that my work to keep myself open to reconciling is actually making God's will come to life thru me. I know the wrong's that I did in my M. Although I cannot undo the wrongs, I continue to improve myself to prepare for our eventual reconciliation. NO SCOREKEEPING! Simply two people placing their God first, their marriage second, and their individual selves third. My vow is to live my life for God, fight for my M second, and fight for myself after that.

QUESTION: Why did you quit going to counseling?

Respond to your XW in a reserved, respectful, interested way. Give her space to finish the conversation later if she starts to pull away.

Your gonna get there my friend, but you suffer from the same thing that I do. Focusing on ME instead of on her needs. She seems hurt and angry like mine. Stop scorekeeping. It's counterproductive. My XW's mother always says, "Would you rather be right, or would you rather be happy?" Simple, but is along the same lines of NO scorekeeping. Who is right and who is wrong is irrelevant. Is the issue being discussed right or wrong; good or bad? That doesn't focus on either one of you. Much more productive and much less emotional.

Well, my friend, I wish you well. Let's help each other put corks in the bottom of our boat to keep it afloat long enough to see our XW's swimming back to us to discuss the opportunity of reconciling. Focus on your attitude. Associate with people who are positive and FOR you rather than AGAINST you.

Talk soon,
Tom