Trying2Live-Post #6

[hope3343]

T2L and group, check my sitch,,,
Decided to go route of PI so if H asks for D I will be well prepared and be able to delay the D for awhile also.
Hope all else is well

[Trying2live]

All,
Well here's my opinion, of course I am not a therapist so its just for opinion sake. I will just be as honest as I can.

Of course you are hurt, that's what he meant to do. He didn't have control for that few minutes since you had BOTH decided to cautiously work on the marriage. That was a joint decision and he had to give up some control and he couldn't handle it and he dumped on you took control. I personally would have jumped off and said yeah this is not satisfying me either.

I know you want your marriage and i want that too but you have to be strong. He is controlling your every move. How much love was shown by what he did to you? Not much.

This is his issue and you need some boundaries in my very humble opinion. I will not lose my integrity and self respect for any one and that's including my H. Please protect yourself.

If you continue allowing the hurt at some point you will no longer love him and even if he does come back you won't want the marriage. Have you read SAA?

I am sure you are an awesome woman, and he truly needs to see what he has but you may have to implement boundaries so that he can feel what he may lose if he doesn't stop the abuse. That comment was abuse in my book.

Have you ever entertained the idea that maybe this isnt about you and that God needs to do some pruning on him and some molding and breaking?

[hope3343]

T2L, 2x4...for All but it is REALLY good advice. All I think when you start to be confident and strong, it is overwhelming for H and he needs to "Put you down" to build up his own insecure behavior. Stay strong, continue to work on yourself, GAL and H will have to start making changes within himself. When H mentioned about "working on the M" did that include "no dates, no contact" with OW? Do not let him call all of the shots.

[TxMomw/2girls]

Ok here is the letter from my girlfriend to my H... Names have been changed.. She just went back to her H a week two weeks ago. My H hasn't said anything about this letter he got Tuesday.. read my update thread I made some comments today

Hi Jon,
I had a hard time deciding if I should even email you because what you are going through and what you decide to do is none of my business. I know I don't know you that well, but what I do know is that we are going through something very similar. You are probably at the stage where you think whatever people are telling you doesn't relate to you. That your situation is different. No one understands how you really feel. You might not even want to read this and delete it before you get to the end because you know what you are about to hear is going to be hard to face and think about. I know TxMom very well and knew how happy she was when she met you. Everyone could see what a great match you were and you both seemed truly happy. TxMom was smart to not give into the pressure of age or peers to marry the first person that came along. She wanted to make sure it was real and that she would love you forever. You and TxMom have a great foundation, something that a lot of marriages lack.

The emotions that you are feeling now with this new person is what you felt with TxMom. You can get that back. That new feeling with the affair will eventually fade and you will be faced with so many additional pressures and problems, guilt, jealousy, kid issues, money, and the list goes on and on. I have not talked to one divorced friend that doesn't say it's horrible, hard, and if there's any chance your marriage can be saved to try your hardest. Even ones that are happily remarried (or at least think they are) say in confidence that they regret leaving their marriage for the person they're with now.

Of course you've told OW what you need to be happy and what was missing in your marriage, and I'm sure she is giving it to you with complete effort. The problem is those things that she's providing will satisfy you and make you happy for now, but won't solve the issues that arise after the effort stops and you're left dealing with the same problems and issues that you face in any marriage. You will have the same issues with her and because of the added pressures that come with a divorce, it will potentially lead to another divorce. I've realized a lot of what I went through had to do with realizing what I need to change about myself and how to have good communication. It's so much easier to blame others though. Being blessed with children and a wife who just wants to love you and accept you and your mistakes means so much.

I could go on forever about my situation, but I really wouldn't know where to begin or end. It was just so easy to get caught up in it all. The feelings and emotions felt good. Being wanted so badly by someone else is flattering. My relationship went on for over a year. I really thought he could solve all my problems and that I could be happier with him. I know I truly loved him, but you can love more than one person in a lifetime. Some people are just in love with being in love. We are probably both very passionate people that need excitement, the feelings that the affair brought us. But, what I had to realize it's temporary and it will fade. Is it really worth losing it all to get right back where you started?

When our divorce was about to be final I completely freaked out. I knew my H had moved on, was dating and he knew that he was going to be fine. The thought of him with someone else, my kids having a step mom and so many other thoughts went thought my head. We married who we are with for a reason. I went back to those reasons and realized those out weigh the negatives that are most likely easy to fix. Every relationship and marriage is going to have problems. I figured, why not work on the one I already had that brought me happiness, wonderful kids and a great life to begin with. The thing that you hear over and over about marriage can be better after an affair can actually be true. My H and I have talked more in the past five days and discovered so much about ourselves and each other and what we need to have a happy fulfilling marriage. It can and will only get better.

I am only wanting to tell you this because I wish I would have done this months ago to take away some of the pain I put him through. The saying you don't know what you've got until it's gone hit home with me big time. The thought I really almost lost him devastated me. TxMom won't wait around forever. She has handled this situation with so much pride, dignity, class and complete unconditional love for you. That is hard to come by. It only describes what type of person she is and what you have and what you could potentially lose. I know exactly what you're feeling and what you're going through. You re a good person with a big heart that I know will freak out eventually just like I did. TxMom is a strong person that will be fine and make someone very happy if you choose to move on.

I knew I could never really go through with it because my guilt would never let me move onto another productive relationship. I know you are probably at the stage where you are even questioning your love for TxMom. It's being smothered by new love, flattery, sex, emotions, but I promise it's still there. Can you really just walk away from your marriage not knowing that you did everything possible to save it? Can you really have a good relationship with someone else not knowing that you everything you could? I am so grateful my H even gave me a chance. That chance might not be there for you as time goes on. Just please take some time to remove yourself from your current situation to really think about it all. It's hard to do that if you are around OW all the time with her pressuring you. She has to be Ok with giving you time to process everything. If she's not Ok with that, is she really someone who truly cares about you and even a good person deep down that you could be risking everything for? Just do some soul searching. TxMom and your wonderful children deserve that. If you ever want to talk I would be happy to. I just want the best for you both and would love to help in any way I can.

[Trying2live]

Wow that's a good peak into the mindset of a walk away. Thanks for sharing. IT would still be rather hard for a WS to even take in much of that information with out rejecting it if they are in the fog though. Even now if someone sent that to my H he would just reject it unfortunately.

Below I am posting a lil bit from another book by Dr. Willard Harley called Buyers, Renters and Free loaders, enjoy.......

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doinf some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.

[hope3343]

Hey T2L, how are you.
Went to see the decorated boat parade. It was nice. Could not help thinking that last year I saw it with H.

Reading your attachment, towards the end I would call H a freeloader. Pretty sad. Why do we still want them?

What have you been up to for the weekend?

[Trying2live]

Hey there, not much grocery shopping and errands. Hard being out this time of year. Lots of families out today doing the Christmas thing{{{{sigh}}}}, keep moving forward.....Trying not to be so angry, this is new for me. I don't like the anger, its really hard to work through. It truly makes you want to say forget it, but not for the right reasons, only as retaliation. Doing my best to process through it. People warned me about the angry stage, it didn't think i would get it, funny huh. Anyways posting more interesting stuff to go along with the Surviving An Affair book by Willard Harley, It's from a former walk away wife, see below.....


Wayward Fog Babble (things ALL waywards seem to say):

1. I love you but Im not in love with you
2. I have been unhappy in this marriage for a long time
3. The kids will be fine if we get a divorce as long as we remain friends (for their sake)
4. I just dont feel that way about you any more
5. The OP (other person) has nothing to do with the way I feel about you now
6. You are a wonderful person, we just arent meant to be together
7. I am just confused, this has nothing to do with you
8. I am doing the best I can,I just cant decide what I want
9. I need some time/space to sort all of this out
10. I need some time/space to find myself
11. I am so tired of feeling this way!
12. Cant you just accept that it is over?
13. Why are you being nice to me when I do not deserve it?
14. You have never been there for me
15. I am going to file for divorce, I just dont have the money/time/strength, etc right now
16. I am not going to change the way I feel, why dont you move out and file for divorce
17. The children will learn to love the OP like I do
18. I cant help myself
19. Nothing you do will ever make me love you that way again
20. My happiness has to be my number one priority
21. I will DEFINITELY divorce you if you expose to anyone or confront the OP
22. You never listened to me BEFORE now; quit acting like you hear me NOW!

And on and on... The justifications of a WS can be mind-boggling! Wayward fog babble can be EXTREMELY convincing, though, especially to the BS. The reason for this is because the WS ABSOLUTELY believes what they are saying at the time. The BS has to keep in mind, though, that the justifications are so great for a WS because it is a defense mechanism to WARD OFF the feelings of guilt and shame that they SHOULD feel. Guilt and shame KILL the fantasies of a WS, and are replaced with unfounded excuses.

From the utterly ridiculous such as Mrs. W (to her husband) You use Grandma Toothpaste! to the ones that are a complete re-write of history, to the ones that are interlaced with TRUTH about the state of the M pre-A. Those are the ones that HURT the most, but you must try to turn the HURT into INTEL and therefore use it as a WEAPON against the A.

Example: "You never listened to me (noticed me,etc) before the A, why should I believe youll listen to me now?" This cuts deep as you realize that the communication (or intimacy, etc) WAS lacking in the M pre-A. Ok..BUT, you must then prove your WILLINGNESS TO CHANGE in the face of devastation. The WS is giving you WEAPONS to use against him/her in your WAR against the A. So, ask yourself- if their complaints sound ridiculous, they probably ARE…but if what they just said rings true Pre-A, think about it and figure out what TRUTH there is in it and then CHANGE that part of yourself. Obviously the WS is not going to believe the changes at first, (which they WILL tell you-IGNORE them) and they will not reciprocate, but that is NOT the reason you are changing. You are making yourself a better person for:
1.) When they come back to the M, OR
2.) Yourself as you move forward on your own, and in future relationships.

WS's re-write histor.. "There was no romance or passion between us throughout our WHOLE marriage." Obviously this is/was fog babble. It felt true to me then because I had allowed another man to enter my life and fill my ENs to the point that I felt I was in love with him and that he was my "soul mate." This statement/belief obviously hurt my BH very deeply. But as soon as I removed the OM and got through the fog, I realized of course, that not only was it an untrue assessment, but that those feelings could be recaptured for us by following the ten basic concepts of a happy marriage by Dr. Harley.

[Trying2live]

Here's another part to what I posted about the minds of Waywards, it was written by a former Betraying Spouse.....

Inside the Wayward Mind, part 2:
"Your WS is like a drug addict or falling down drunk" analogy

You will hear many people say on this forum that your WS is like a drug addict or falling-down drunk. The reason for this is because trying to reason with a falling down drunk is futile, draining and just plain ridiculous--same with a fogged-out WS. Ask yourself "would I stand in the face of a be-bopping crack addict dying for their next fix and try to talk sense with them?" OF COURSE NOT!!! The spouse you once knew inside and out, who was your best friend, and who loved you with all of their heart and soul is temporarily GONE. They have been replaced with a person who has all the "logic" of a falling-down drunk.

The first step is to take away their keys, so they can’t "drive" or hurt any innocent victims (like your children). But you do not CONFRONT and DEMAND things of an addict, nor do you reason with them. Face to face with a drunk, you hold up the right hand with something to distract them (ooooo, PRETTY) and then with the left hand you gently take the keys out of their hand. As soon as the distraction wears off, you say (bright and cheerily) "Hey, lets go for a drive and go as FAST AS WE CAN!! Wont that be fun-come on!" Of course your intent is NOT to drive as fast as you can, but by the time they are strapped into the passenger seat and you are BEHIND THE WHEEL AND IN CONTROL of the car, they dont remember how they even got there. THIS IS HOW YOU DEAL WITH A WAYWARD---STRATEGY, NOT LOGIC!

The way you would handle an addict in order to actually begin to HEAL them would be to take away their drug. We ALL know how well that goes over in the beginning, right? Anger doesnt even begin to cover it…that is where EXPOSURE comes in with WSs. It is your first line of defense and should hit them much like an INTERVENTION with a drug addict. It must be NUCLEAR! Tell the other person’s spouse or girlfriend/boyfriend, your parents, WS's parents, possibly any close friends, possibly the director of HR at their workplace if the A is happening with someone there-- ALL AT ONCE. This way, your WS cannot try to "spin" things that make you look like a fool or a crazy person (and OH YES THEY WILL). You must not warn them it is coming; you must not listen to them when they say "I will DIVORCE you if you tell anyone!!" They ALL say this!! Your M will survive their anger-- it will not survive a continuing A.

But in the end, you can only control yourself. Think about it this way- you can do an intervention with a drug addict, you can hold their hand while they go through treatment and withdrawal, you can tell them you love them even when they turn into a monster and scream filth at you over and over when in the throes of withdrawal, etc. But once they come out on the other side, you cannot control them. Nor are you really in control as to whether they stay in rehab or (with infidelity) maintain no contact with the OP. It is ultimately up to them, and if they choose to continue being destructive, you must then walk away no matter how much you love them (Plan B).

This is just to illustrate HOW the wayward mind thinks and HOW to deal with them to prevent as much damage to yourself and your children as possible.

[Trying2live]

Okay last part from a former betraying Spouse of inside a mind of a wayward....

Inside the Wayward Mind, part 3:
The distorted and hopefully TEMPORARY "logic" of the wayward...

In an attempt to divert the guilt and shame, and avoid all the hard work that a wayward intrinsically knows they will be faced with upon accepting the reality of what they have done, they look at the person they are married to as a scapegoat. They re-write history from before the A and convince themselves (mostly subconsciously, although some do it consciously) that the M was doomed from either the beginning, or the subsequent years following their wedding day. This is actually easy to do, because ALL M's have their problems. Everyone has flaws, and the wayward focuses on the faults of the betrayed to justify the way they are currently feeling and for the A itself.

The other aspect is the OP. The wayward sees them as their "soul mate" and tells themselves that "everyone deserves to be happy." Therefore, no matter how wrong they know the A is deep down inside, they go with the new age vibe that you must "follow your feelings." They see D all around them and convince themselves that it is the norm. They see other children who have been through a D and say "They are doing just fine," even though those children probably are NOT doing just fine. (Except in the cases where the married home was abusive or otherwise unsafe, etc. In those cases, anyone is better off getting themselves and their children away from an abuser, and with counseling the children may end up OK.)

The wayward can convince themselves of this due to the fact that they are observing from a distance. They do not actively seek to dig deeper and discover that the children of D, especially ones with infidelity as the cause, have an extremely difficult time with anxiety, guilt (why weren't we enough), and as MelodyLane talks about, understanding right from wrong if they are not told the truth about the D. They internalize their pain most of the time, so it is difficult to see what they are going through. The wayward truly believes that "if the children know they are loved by both parents, and my BS and I get along for the children's sake, they will be just fine." To dig deeper for the truth about the affect of D on children would be to vaporize their fantasy world in a very big way. WSs are terrible parents, even if they were great parents before the A.

It is a very scary state of mind for everyone involved. Anything the BS does to try to convince the wayward that what they are doing is wrong is met with hostility and the attitude that the BS is trying to "punish" them for their wrongdoings.

Unfortunately, for most WSs, THAT is the state of existence they remain in, even if the M is salvaged to the point of somewhat peaceful co-existence. It is then the feeling of the wayward that "I have done everything I can...I have stopped the A, I have said I am sorry a thousand times, I have placated you with flowers and cards, and now you just need to be a strong enough person to get over it!" If the BS does not buy into this theory (like W2S) then there is an extended period of time where the WS and BS go round and round in circles, with the BS knowing they deserve more than to be placated, and the WS viewing any attempt at real recovery (talking about the A in full detail, living their lives as an open book, etc) as punishment or as their BS being insecure or needy. Until the WS fully realizes the extent of their damage and faces their greatest moment of selfishness and devastation to their marriage partner, this will be the continued state of existence.

If and when the WS finally comes to the place where they can humble themselves and seek guidance as to the extent of their damage, and change their perspective about the A and the M, they can expect a period of depression. It is truly devastating to honestly realize what I have done (switching to first person to speak from experience). The BS can actually benefit from this, because it offers a time of re-building the love they have for each other. The BS can finally SEE and ACTUALIZE the remorse of the wayward and seek to comfort them, even as they heal themselves. Once this epiphany is achieved, the wayward will be willing and eager to learn all they can of how to comfort their BS and therefore learn and grow together. They can re-connect on a deeply emotional level, fill each other's ENs joyfully and thus create a loving environment where true romantic love can blossom.

An A is never a "good" thing in an M, obviously, but it can be a huge turning point where the couple can grow and be even deeper in love with each other having weathered the storm of the A. They will both realize that everyone makes mistakes, but it is not our mistakes that define us, it is how we cope and make amends for those mistakes that truly make us who we are. The couple then feels pride in the fact that they have recovered successfully from one of the most heart-wrenching travesties known to man.

[hope3343]

T2L, wow, so true especially para 2 of the part 3. I remember my H saying in the MC session "look there is lots of M that break up after 30 years, it is common" and M was NEVER good babble babble.
So you hit the angry stage, I hit that one quick! Tough to work that through. I find that I am grinding my teeth in my sleep. grrrrr. Will have to catch up. Found a way to expose to OW sister.
I will post over in losing my sanity.
We will survive and thrive in the end.