Another one joins the flock (III)

[Punktmann]

Mike, This stinks, I know.

I'm gonna call you out a little here, you're doing the right thing, but for the wrong reasons.

We don't walk off the field b/c we're pissed at the other team who we've decided are a bunch of dodo-heads, we walk off b/c the other team is cheating, cheating is wrong, and we're not going to be a part of that.

There is a difference, and it is an important one.

Been lied to, lied about, cheated on, stolen from, stabbed in the back, had your kids screwed over? You have every right to have a righteous anger about that. But you can't allow your anger to dictate your decisions, b/c they will not be in anyone's best interest, least of all the kids.

The decisions should come from a place where your kids come first, are they having fun, are they feeling good, are they feeling secure and loved, are they able to keep socializing well?

I doubt living with another man things are going well for them emotionally.

Like I said, I don't believe your actions are wrong, but the reasons. This is important b/c your next moves might not be the best for your kids since they sound motivated by anger, indignation, and lashing back out, and those reasons will not lead to decisions that put your kids first.

Read "Tough Love," by James Dobson. It doesn't matter if you're secular or religious, this book will explain a lot about how and more importantly WHY to call the cheating spouse on the carpet by filing for divorce.

Pay special attention to what he says about losing, or regaining the respect of the spouse.


Where I'm ultimately going with this is that walking off the field from anger means the you most likely are closing the door to reconciliation out of anger as well. Uh, Not cool for the kids. They will FOREVER want you to reconcile, so badly that it affects their ability to form attachments later in life.

Walking off the field from the stance that "you are doing wrong, I won't allow it, but you can come home if you will stop this," leaves the door open for reconciliation, (think kids,) and shows a backbone that (re)generates respect. Respect is the foundation that love is built on. You can't love someone you don't respect.

This leads me to,

I've come to realize that what W has done is NOT due to anything I did or did not do and that people telling me that I "MUST HAVE contributed to the situation somehow" are full of manure. Nothing I did or did not do justified W's decision to abandon her family and commit adultery in the quest for a lifestyle to which she believes she is entitled.

Really.

You are right AND wrong. Nothing you did justifies her actions, that's what marriage means, for better or for worse.

But most likely, at some point, something you did or did not do had an effect in how she felt about you. None of us are perfect.

I'll misquote another poster here.

At first, fearful and guilty, I thought this was all my fault. Then, angry, I thought this was all her fault. Later, I finally came to the realization that while I had some faults and contributed to the early problems, this divorce was her decision and responsibility.

If I could post my email address, I'd mail you my copy of that book for free. It's that important. It sounds like you're early enough to make your decision work, if the future ones are based on the right reasons.


Best wishes,

Punkt

[TRUSTING]

I just read your thread. You sound like such an amazing person.
Don't be surprised about what she has done. It is part of the package. They all do it and yes, it can even get much worse.

I'm not saying stay or go. That is your decision.

She would not be in MLC if she was not lying, cheating, justifying, rationalizing, and defaming you.

All I know from reading your posts was that you were on the right track. You were doing beautifully and DBing perfectly. OM is clearly threatened by you. He is clearly someone way way way below you.

I JUST WANTED THE GOOD GUY TO WIN

[mishka422]

((((Mike)))))

I have read along your thread since the beginning. I didn't have much to say because you were doing so well but now, I'm going to have to say I'm with Jack on this one.

WTH happened to Mr. Confident? The man that was willing to take it on the chin for his family? Do you honestly think these changes in your W are permanent or do you believe that the OM's influence is just turning her inside out? She is not herself, you said that. She is in MLC - crazy, selfish, spinning yars to anyone that will listen, turning you into the bad guy in order to justify her own adulterous, ridiculous actions.

Mike, I understand that sometimes enough is enough. I had enough and decided that I couldn't handle it anymore. I had my own reasons for that. You have to find your reasons. If the lies she is spreading that your friends all know are lies are pushing your buttons then that is sad. If your reason is deeper and more about protecting yourself and your kids, then go for it.

I'm just saying, please examine your motives carefully. Look at them with only how they affect you and the kids. Then make a move or stand still - your choice.

Much support to you Mike.

[Mike85]

I am glad that your reputation is more important then being able to weather her MLC.

There is a point at which one has to recognize that the person one once knew is gone. When W deliberately, repeatedly, and needlessly attacked the one thing that she knew was core to me, the thing that I was raised to protect and to cultivate, then I realized that she had become someone I didn't recognize and could never again trust.

Waving away her selfish, shallow, destructive actions as "MLC" doesn't adequately describe the pain she has caused me, our kids, our respective parents and extended families, the complete betrayal of promises made, the shattering of belief systems, etc. Labeling her adultery, her lying, and her scheming with an acronym may make great shorthand, but it dangerously seems to make it just another syndrome that someone gets over. A lot of people who do what she did NEVER come back, never "get over it," and go on to marry the OP and live their 2nd life. In the meantime, people like us get stuck with the wreckage and a lot of wasted time as we waited in vain.

I did a LOT of focusing inward, JTB. I was counseled by my priest and my therapist. I prayed a litany of prayers (including the Hedge of Thorns) every morning after waking up, and every night before going to sleep. I subscribed to the 'Charlyne Cares' e-mails and read them devoutly. I spent a lot of time thinking over the good times, the bad times, who we were when we met, the people we've become, and the things we said we wanted from life then and now.

Yes, I was supported by a lot of great friends, old and new. Many of them forced me to analyze my reasons for fighting SO hard to keep my W and my M.

I've realized that part of what fueled my fire for fighting for my M was nothing more than a desperate (but human) fear of being alone. It wasn't wrong to feel/fear as I did, it just wasn't the *right* reason to fight. Once that fear was confronted and gotten rid of, I was able to more rationally analyze the fight for my W.

The covenant we made? The one W callously broke in so many ways?
Our history together? The one that W now claims she "gave up so much of herself" to make and that she now repudiates?
Trust? Honor? Integrity? W has none of these now. She has lied TO me (and to our kids, our friends, and to acquaintances), lied ABOUT me and others.

As W again and again stabbed me in the back by her attacking my reputation, by her becoming more and more integrated into OM's life (she works with/for him now, they're buying a house together), by her being so obviously set in her decision to move on, I started to realize that I was clinging to a ghost. Many of her former friends have recently told me that she had her mind made up and plans set in motion MONTHS before she dropped the bomb. She wants a new life. She now has a new career (she declared business bankruptcy and shut down her salon), a new man, and a new upscale life that she loves. I've seen nothing to indicate that she would "settle" for being the middle class W of a high school teacher.

[quote=Jack_Three_Beans]And you bought into the move on BS. And you are justifying her bad choices as your reason to move on.

I don't believe that the "move on" bit *is* BS after a while. At what point SHOULD I finally give up? When she's engaged to her boyfriend? When she's married to him (that's the path they've openly told people they're taking)? I've read so many accounts of spouses who hung on for YEARS, even through their ex's marriages, and it doesn't come off as valiant or noble. It comes off as sad, pathetic, and deluded.

Yes, W made bad choices. But what is it that we tell even the youngest of children? Choices have consequences. The days of me being a doormat are over.

16 years man. No not happy, sad actually. Intellectually, your a power house Mike, but where is your inner steel?

My inner steel is what got me to take care of my kids on my own, my house and finances on my own, to stop focusing so much of my time and effort on someone who has made it perfectly clear that, were it not for the kids, she would have nothing to do with me anymore.

Sleeping with some other guy? Boo Fing Hoo, lying about you? Ditto.

I can't get past the fact that I would never be able to trust her again. Examining our pasts in therapy (the three times she bothered to come with me), it came out that she had cheated on EVERY boyfriend she had ever had. Now that she has done this to me, she showed that our relationship was no exception.

She used to frequently joke that she married the first time for love but would marry the second time for money. Joke's not so funny now.

Trust her ever again? Nope. What's that old expression? "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."

Dissappointed. I still wish you the best, but I thought you had the ability to do this.

Thanks. I wish YOU the best also. Who knows how this all will shake out. I haven't started dating and may not for a while. I want to be comfortable with being a whole independent person again (and a great dad) before I contemplate another R. But whatever way my path winds, I have resolved to never again place myself in the position of believing that I *need* another person to complete me.

Your W may be worth the fight. Mine is not.

[Mike85]

I want to thank EVERYONE for all the support and occasional butt-kicking over the last seven months. This place has been amazing and I know in my heart that I could not have gotten as strong as I did without you guys.

My decision to stop seeking reconciliation is not a knee-jerk reaction or even a simmering, "Godfather Part 2"-style reaction. There were a series of things W had done since August that began to erode my belief that she would come back.

- I was positive that OM abandoning W in the city this past August to go on an alcoholic bender and my rescuing her (and in the process, her spending a day and a half with me and the kids again) would mark a turning point for the better. Instead, upon OM's contrite return, she read him the riot act and fought for THAT relationship, choosing to help him stay sober, and leveraging it into a promise from him for a trip to Jamaica this December.

- W finally going through with the 32-page separation agreement as she said she would, with all the provisions laid out as she promised verbally (no request for spousal or child support, shared child custody, etc.). This aspect of the situation she has thought out and planned, with an eye toward her new life.

- W referring to my sending flowers to her for our anniversary as an "unnecessary gesture" after politely thanking me, and throwing them away. No anger directed at me, just cold, businesslike indifference.

- W going through with business bankruptcy and switching careers to work with/for OM, and all the other financial/legal intertwining over the last few months: buying furniture together, getting joint credit (he'll regret THAT...), joint utilities. They are gradually becoming more and more integrated.

- W making it quite clear in therapy and to her (now former) friends that she wants -and claims to have ALWAYS wanted- an upper-middle class, high-maintenance life, complete with cocktail parties/soirees, snowboarding, wakeboarding, trips to the Caribbean and Europe, etc. and that my being a "mere public high school teacher" will not get that life for her. At one point, she was blunt and just said that despite my being the most "honorable person [she] knew," the fact remains that I "will never be able to provide [her] the lifestyle [she] deserves."

- W's decision to not merely leave the explanation for our separation to "growing apart" and instead EVEN NOW telling friends and acquaintances that her decision to leave was due to my being a cold, indifferent man whose ignoring of her and the kids bordered on emotional abuse. Those who knew/know me didn't ever buy this and were disgusted by her rationalizing her adultery through slandering me as a man, a husband, and a father. It also flies in the face of what she said in therapy.

W failed out of college. Her business is a failure. She wants a high-price lifestyle and realizes that she won't get that unless I change careers (which I refuse to do, having already snagged another Master's to get a better-paying career as a teacher), she goes back to school or retrains for another career (she dismisses that as too hard and time-consuming, despite my offering to pay for it), or she dumps me for someone who makes more money. She chose Option 3, the "easy way out," and is hooked up with someone stupid enough to trust her, throw money at her, and get her all the things she asks.

Eventually, OM may realize that if she backstabbed me for $$$, she may do the same to HIM for the same reasons, trading him in for looks AND $$$. If/when he smartens up and leaves her, I wouldn't take her back - she would just use me as a rebound and trade me in again. The fundamental reasons she gave for her leaving haven't changed, nor will they. I have no intention of changing careers again just to foot the bills for her desired lifestyle, nor will I believe that she will be satisfied with a "mere middle class" life now that she has had a taste of the high life.

My decisions have come after months of therapy, months of introspection, months of attempted rapport with W, and many, MANY friends, family, and cowrokers who have been where I am. I haven't run into a SINGLE person in my position for whom reconciliation occurred, and furthermore, their WASes went off and got into second marriages. My W is definitely giving every indication of heading in that direction.

According to W, my "crime" was not being economically ambitious enough to provide her the life she "deserves." She said that she finally realized at age 40 that if she was ever going to get that lifestyle, it could not be with me as her husband. As intellectually satisfying as it is for some DBers to argue that I *must* have done something else deeper to help hurt my marriage, the fact is that some spouses are fundamentally shallow enough and selfish enough to make money or lust their unilateral reason for destroying a marriage. Not all marriages can be saved, no matter how hard you pray, no matter how many DB mantras you recite.

I'm not bitter, nor do I consider the months that I *did* fight hard to be wasted time. I believe that I *had* to go through what I did - if there was ANY remnant of the love, respect, commitment, in my W, it was worth saving. I *had* to fight for my family and let my sons see that ONE parent was willing to fight. However, I also now realize that it is *equally* important for them, as future men, to see that being a doormat is weakness, that there comes a point when a man has to stand strong and move on. Neither my priest, nor my therapist, nor my family disagrees with my decision. Ultimately, what matters is that *I* am at peace with it.

[Mike85]

Other thoughts this morning on my sitch:

- My kids are doing well. Quite well. Well enough, in fact that their own counselors and pediatrician have decided that unless something changes dramatically (in them, with the situation), they see no reason to continue counseling. Despite what W has done, I believe that she deserves some credit for helping to make the situation as amicable as possible.

- From spending MANY hours talking with W's parents and a lot of our old friends (some of whom knew W before she even met me), I've realized that she has very old, very deep issues.

She was born in Manhattan and lived there until she was seven. Her family had a nice, upper middle class (maybe even lower upper-class) life. Then her dad made some bad business decisions, went bankrupt, and as a result, they had to leave NYC, moving to a small rural village upstate. That event scarred her - she obsesses on "being from NYC....the REAL city...Manhattan" and tells story after story about the life she used to have. Her parents told me that W has a sense of entitlement based on how they used to live about 35 years ago. She resented having to go to a SUNY college instead of an expensive private school. In therapy, she made it clear that she feels angry about having that wonderful, privileged life "taken" from her.

When she finally found a career path in cosmetology, she wound up with a salon in one of the ritziest suburbs in our area, and worked on clients who were living the life she "used to have." Day after day, seeing people who wore designer clothes, expensive jewelry, drove expensive cars, took exotic vacations.. and then driving home in a minivan to our "mere" two and a half story Victorian, eating a normal middle class meal, dealing with scouts, piano lessons, tight finances - it got to her. She kept complaining that *I* didn't make enough money, despite the fact that I have always made 4-5x what she did, especially once you factor in a teacher's benefits (her job NEVER provided healthcare, paid days off, retirement plans, etc.). I went back to school and got a better career and even jumped ship to a much better-paying district after a few years, but she said that it would never be good enough. When I suggested she go back to school (which I was willing to pay for and support her with), she said it would take too long, be too hard, and be too time-consuming. Besides, according to her, providing the lifestyle was all MY responsibility.

She also has deep issues regarding failure. She failed out of college after her sophomore year, largely due to her partying and sleeping around instead of doing schoolwork (this is by her own admission years ago). We met after she got kicked out. She tried community college, with an eye to transferring back to the four-year school, but she couldn't even complete THAT. Then she bopped from minimum-wage job to minimum-wage job for a couple of years until deciding to take a stab at cosmetology. She did well as a tech, but when she decided to buy a business and run her own salon, it never did well despite appearances. For the first few years, she called this state "normal for a new business," but after eight years, the debt mounted, reality set in, and her dream of being a wealthy business owner seemed a pipe dream. So, she failed in college and failed at business. In the meantime, her husband and all her friends managed to all get advanced degrees and have success in their fields. She told her mom that she realized that every adult person she knew had at LEAST one Master's degree. Meanwhile, she bombed out of TWO schools and was running a failing business. She has serious self-esteem issues.

In therapy and to friends and acquaintances, she paints the above scenario as being the result of conspiracies on other people's parts. She had to go to a SUNY because people conspired against her dad and made his business fail. And then her folks were selfish and didn't want to spend the $$$ to send her anyplace else. She failed out of college because her advisor was an idiot and the dean hated her. Her business failed because her employees all secretly hated her and drove the business into the ground. Her marriage failed and she *had* to go to another man because *I* wouldn't give her the life she deserved and besides, I was a cold bastard.

Nothing, according to her, has EVER been her fault. I know it's classic MLC and that she needs help. Her parents agree with me. But, right now, she's living the life she claims she "deserves" - fancy parties, hip trendy upperclass friends, skiing and snowboarding, wakeboarding, vacations to expensive places, and is living with someone with more problems than her, which for once gives her a sense of superiority and accomplishment. She swears that she loves her new life and could NEVER go back to being a rural teacher's middle class wife. With the help of OM, she is now carefully laying out their new life together. For once, she has what she thinks she deserves and is willing to do whatever it takes to never lose it "again."

Now, if some people here want to "call me to the carpet" for not relentlessly hammering away at her with loving gestures and prayer, fine. I realize that part of the anger and disappointment launched at DBers who resign themselves to separation/divorce and move on is at least partly from the fear others have that if THAT person's effort failed, then theirs might also. I saw that when I first joined the board, and I see it now.

My M failing, however, has nothing to do with other people's DBing efforts. Just because *MY* W has issues that I could not overcome or break through doesn't mean that anyone else's efforts will also fail. Every M/R is different. Your spouses are not my W. My problems may have been similar to other people's, but they were not the same. No matter how much I tried to communicate what was going on in my life, the fact is that there was no way for adequately, eloquently express the complexity of what was going on, where we came from, etc. I tried the best I could, but the fact is, only those at/close to the "epicenter" got the full picture. That failing in communication to folks here is partly mine, and partly due to the limits of the internet.

And honestly, I got a LOT out of my DB effort and would still recommend DB to people. I got stronger. I got perspective. I got focused. I set a model for my sons. I met some absolutely WONDERFUL people. I have reconnected with old friends I haven't heard from in years. Some people that used to be mere acquaintances years ago have become dear, dear friends. The experience is bittersweet. I lost a lot, but I regained/gained a lot. One of the other things I got from DB is how to approach my next serious R, whenever that happens. The DB experience has helped me.

[job]

Mike,
DB is not only for attempting to save a marriage/relationship, it is to help save you. DB worked for you in many ways and what you've learned here will carry you throughout the the rest of your life. Look at what you've accomplished while in pain and on the emotional rollercoaster!

No all marriages will be saved. You are the only one that can determine when you've had enough and know what you must do in order to get to the next step. You are at the cross roads of life and now, you must make decisions that will affect you and your children in many ways. Do what you need to do, but only do it when you are not frustrated, angry or in emotional pain. Just make sure that you are ready to do what is necessary to cut the ties permanently.

You've fought the battle and you may not have won, but you did win in many ways...you saved yourself. You are a success no matter what happens.

[mishka422]

Beautifully said Snodderly!

Mike, I too "failed" at saving my M, but I have learned so much about myself and what I truly want and need from life. You have too - that is truly all that matters.

You are a much stronger man than you ever were because of your experience and your kids will be better for it as well.

Much respect to you Mike. Now go get your life!

[Mike85]

Snodderly, mishka - thanks.

[new_attitude]

Mike- I'm glad to read that you and your kids are doing so well. You tried very hard to save your m, more than most people would have, and you should be proud of your efforts. You are in a good place. You've learned alot and it shows in your posts. I hope you and your family have a happy holiday!