sounds like you're both on the defensive and wanting to be heard. I know it sounds hokey, but you can lay down ground rules for R talks to make sure both parties feel like they're being heard in a safe environment. You know - each side gets 3 minutes to explain themselves and the other person has to remain totally silent but maintain eye contact. Then end it with "thank you for telling me that" - type stuff.
I think many of us are guilty of doing the same things we accuse others of doing. We often pick up in others the things we don't like in ourselves. Difference is, for ourselves we can justify it because we have the full emotional picture in our heads. We don't have that with other person. I think my W is hypocritical for complaining that I neglected her by focusing more on my degree program but then she wouldn't do anything together because she wanted to focus on her degree program. Is there a right or a wrong there? Not sure. I neglected her, now she is neglecting me. We both felt justified and couldn't escape the loop. We both probably would go away and feel chitty about ourselves. I don't know. It's all about communication I guess.
Sorry you're feeling grey. There's an Eliza Gilkyson song - Coast - where she sings that she needs to be alone for awhile to find out whatever became of her. Then asks, did you ever think it would feel like this, the price you pay for love? The price that you pay willingly?
What bothers me about the song is that even though I'm throwing in the towel with W, will it really ever be better with anyone else? Now I've got all this baggage from years with W - wouldn't it make more sense to work it out with her? I don't know. It scares me that I can easily see myself having a button pushed inadvertently by someone else due to the way my W and I interacted - my pre-programmed responses.
I have to believe there somehow can be transcendence.
lodo
PS - have to remark, it doesn't sound, as usual, like your H is stepping entirely up to the plate. I keep finding this remarkable in your posts. Maybe at some point you need to lay it on the line and let him know that others are willing to do backflips to work on things with a partner who is at least open to it. If he can't commit to that kind of engagement, than that speaks volumes about the future of the R. Remind him that you left because you were scared and he can't get back a scared person through brusqueness. Not that that is any guarantee, but he has to shine a light back - otherwise, where's the good? What's the benefit? But no guarantees even if he does.
Hey Bridge, so sorry you're feeling so bad. I can relate, too many times, way too many times. The argument that goes in circles, cause he diverts, blocks, blames, aarrgghh !!! The interrupting used to drive me insane. Then FG explained data stream to me. It helps. If you want I'll explain it.
Have you read my tennis analogy ? It helped me walk away, drop the rope.
I'd also go get out the VAR book, & find page & paragraph of what he was doing, then I'd e-mail it to him, tell him if he wanted to talk to me, he had to re-read those pages first.
It helped.
Take care of you. Be gentle with you. Do whatever lifts your spirits, good music, good book, good movie, walking ? bubble baths ? herbal tea ? chocolate putting on favorite jammies & crawling in bed in the middle of the day, with chocolate
M 19 years, MC for 8 months, DB'd for 8 months 4 kids; 18, 15, 14, & 10 I was never meant to be a doormat. It took me years of therapy to become assertive enough to stop his abuse.
The argument that goes in circles, cause he diverts, blocks, blames, aarrgghh !!! The interrupting used to drive me insane. Then FG explained data stream to me. It helps. If you want I'll explain it.
Have you read my tennis analogy ? It helped me walk away, drop the rope.
Yes please, I'd like the data stream & tennis analogy both.
Am typing the 'discounting' & "countering' paragraphs to send. thanks for the support.
Divorced 03/2010 Mom to two amazing kids
Taking the road less traveled because those encountered on the way may be just as unique.
Hey Bridge, can you post the discounting adn countering on here please? I keep meaning to go over my book at night but forgetting and then remembering while i'm at work.
** Purple
As soon as you trust yourself you will know how to live. Goethe
Yes please, I'd like the data stream & tennis analogy both.
Am typing the 'discounting' & "countering' paragraphs to send. thanks for the support.
I mentioned to FG that it drove me nuts when h would constantly interrupt. He explained that men think in a data stream, that if it's stopped, or interrupted, they can't get back to it. Women think in more related thoughts, if we get interrupted most of the time we can get back to it. So now, if I'm talking & H jumps in with his data stream, I just try to cut him slack since this is how his brain works. I do come back in with "as I was saying" so that he realizes I was in mid-sentence. But I don't lash out with "[censored], you interrupted me again".
Tennis. This is from back in July. H would ask me to play tennis (have a discussion) he had hundreds of balls, & both racquets, & a serving machine. I had no racquet, had never had tennis lessons, & I thought we were going to have a nice fun easy game of tennis. He starts serving balls as fast as he can. I'm trying to return them. He blocks, he diverts, he smashes, he serves another ball before I can return the first one, (with my hand cause remember I don't have a racquet). I told him this analogy, & told him I was walking off the court, & he could play by himself. When he wanted a nice easy relaxing fun game of tennis, let me know. I wasn't into kill or be killed tennis. make sense ? I probably typed it better to him in an e-mail, I'll see if I can find it. It was totally drop the rope before I knew what rope was.
hugs. I have the agreement already typed onto my laptop, if you want me to e=mail it to you.
M 19 years, MC for 8 months, DB'd for 8 months 4 kids; 18, 15, 14, & 10 I was never meant to be a doormat. It took me years of therapy to become assertive enough to stop his abuse.
just wanted to say thanks for the chat. It's been rattling about in my head all day - what I can remember anyway. I was in the midst of being transported to a higher plane by my soup so ...
It's funny, you read these advice books/columns/postings and everything seems so black and white. Someone either HAS given up on the M or they HAVEN'T. No grey. And yet I think the whole thing is grey, which is why it's so hard. But I don't know. Maybe by the time one spouse leaves, things are beyond repair, depending on the sitch. But it really depends on the WAS, how they communicate, and whether they've shut down emotionally or not. Would you agree? Because that determines how wide of a door the LBS has - the crack through which to display a puppet show in an attempt to gain the interest of the WAS. If that attention can be captured, the LBS can have the chance to show artistry. But not until at least a modicum of interest has been captured.
Anyway, rambling. And wondering - you never answered my question. What's different about the way you deal with forceful personalities at work (and I know how forceful those personalities can be) and the way you deal with H? Is it simply modes of interaction that have been set in stone with him?
just curious. hope your day wasn't too hot and that at some point you caught the smell of mint in the air.
Hi, It's been a long few days. there have been many interactions with H. Some positive, some not so much.
I have started implementing more & more of the techniques advised by P. Evans in her VAR book. It has him off-kilter, which has led to many more confrontations as he has tried to reassert his power and find his footing.
He has complained I am leaving him 'no place to stand' in our interactions.
I said you can stand anywhere you want, I'm just not goning to let you stand on my neck.
Today he went to passive aggressive mode by making us 10 minutes late to MC.
MC was ok, the C made some points from the communication manuals that I have been trying to get him to see for years... the concept that the non-verbals matter.
The C said that research shows ~90% of a message is interpreted by the listener through the non-verbals of the speaker- the tone of voice & the body langauge the speaker has.
if the non-verbals & the words don't match the listener believes the non-verbal time after time, regardless of the words said.
H was very down on himself after C., very woe-is-me. It was hard to watch him hurt. But it was a relief to have some validation from somewhere for the requests I' have made to him in the past and been told I'm just too sensative.
In the past I would have rushed in to reassure him in some way shape or form to assuage the pain I would have assumed I caused. this time I did not, I listened, I validated, I held his hand.
This behaviour is cyclical for him : confrontation/abusive interactions, apologies- down on himself, 'normal interactions', then back to confrontation.
He can hurt & I do not have to assume responsibility for it. Logically I know that, getting it through to my emotional reactionary center is taking time.
it seems easier for someone else to tell him something that will hurt him (the counselor in this case, a piece paper that I wrote things on when we first had the bomb talk) than for me to. I suppose it is still fear of the emotional reprucussions of his hurt back to me.
We go back to C this upcoming Tuesday a really quick turn around. We have much homework to do between now & then. It will be interesting to see if he makes time for it as his job is quite busy right now... sort of a 'make hay while the sunshines' type of job. I reminded him how his choices a year ago to work and continually put of MC, was one of the straws that broke that camels back. I guess we'll see.
I have the kids this week-end (as I have for the past 6, even though there have been 3 of them that have been his week-ends) His job again. S18 even mentioned that Dad has not seemed to want them around much. He seems more content to come get them take them out for movie/supper/fireworks etc. then go back to his house. I probably should ask the kids how they feel about that, or not.. I hate to put ideas in their heads.
Thanks for checking on me BS
Divorced 03/2010 Mom to two amazing kids
Taking the road less traveled because those encountered on the way may be just as unique.
<<This behaviour is cyclical for him : confrontation/abusive interactions, apologies- down on himself, 'normal interactions', then back to confrontation.
Hi Bridge, my H did a similar cycle, almost every 15 days like clockwork. If you can chart it on a calendar, then show it to C, then maybe C can help him see the cycle.
Hang in there, you're doing great. Especially the part about not rushing in to ease his pain. I used to do that constantly too. Ugh !
hugs
M 19 years, MC for 8 months, DB'd for 8 months 4 kids; 18, 15, 14, & 10 I was never meant to be a doormat. It took me years of therapy to become assertive enough to stop his abuse.
putting on favorite jammies & crawling in bed in the middle of the day, with chocolate 