First of all, I would like to thank you so much for putting the perspective of a WAW on this forum for us all to see. You are to be commended for your continued contact and efforts with your H...most WAWs (mine included) sanctimoniously cut off their x/stbx in a very cowardly and selfish fashion (usually involving an affair) under the guise of self-protection and "just wanting to be happy."
Your description (and that of SMARTCOOKIE) of a WAW's mental state are poignant and undoubtedly accurate in the vast majority of cases. The LBH's anger and hurt are just as real. The only way back is via FORGIVENESS...on BOTH SIDES. ACTIONS must be allowed to precede FEELINGS and actions are a CHOICE you can both make. Most WAWs are told this yet ignore it (mine certainly did, was told many times in C). They simply feel that "I have lost my feelings and can't get them back." While understandable, the opposite approach is futile...no one can recapture "good feelings" by avoiding personal contact and stubbornly maintaining an emotional wall while hoping to just magically "feel it" again first before doing something.
Many WAs will say "I would just rather be alone..." but this is a cop-out; most will (if they haven't already) find themselves soon in an EA/PA and usually with someone they would not ever consider being involved with (married, vast age, values, social differences) under "normal" circumstances. They will justify their betrayal of their own moral/ethical standards in any way possible to soothe the guilt and convince themselves that "this just feels soooo right". In the long run, they usually end up disappointed when the luster inevitably wears off.
Unless both parties in a M can honestly look themselves in a mirror, admit some fault and mistakes, and say "I'm so sorry" to their H/W, it remains a power struggle. Both sides hold back until the other "blinks" out of fear, vengeance, and distrust. It just seems to me that, unless one plans on being truly single the rest of one's life, he/she is going to HAVE TO TRUST AND OPEN UP to someone in the future...and the best person to roll the dice with is your x/stbx 95% of the time.
Hi Bridgestone, just popping in to check on you & give you a belated answer.
Bea doesn't mean anything, just cuter than "B". I guess I was in a silly mood when I typed BS. Or I'd had too much BS that day with H, or something.
How are you today ?
M 19 years, MC for 8 months, DB'd for 8 months 4 kids; 18, 15, 14, & 10 I was never meant to be a doormat. It took me years of therapy to become assertive enough to stop his abuse.
I was thinking of you today - hope you're handling the workload okay. I'm drowning a bit; I'm worried about this presentation next weekend.
So I never followed up re: the job you might lose out on due to finishing the PhD later rather than sooner. Is that an absolute for sure thing? You have no room to negotiate?
Hi SC thanks for checking in. Long trip with S18 to his college of choice for fall enrollment. Lots of emotions with this, but not as many as dropping him off in two months will bring.
I have done the best I could with him. He is a good chi-dult (child/adult), smart, a leader, involved in many things. Makes good choices, has good friends. but 10 hours away is so far. (sniff) I think part of that choice is to get away from what has become a difficult place for him to 'grow' and that makes me really sad.
Divorced 03/2010 Mom to two amazing kids
Taking the road less traveled because those encountered on the way may be just as unique.
Been there done that.. I'd be happy to listen about it.
Originally Posted By: lodo
so I never followed up re: the job you might lose out on due to finishing the PhD later rather than sooner. Is that an absolute for sure thing? You have no room to negotiate?
nope.. the negotiations are done, I got a 9 months extension (which is up in August). I will have this next year and then will need to leave. The benefits of working there are amazing- great salary (for what I do), health, tuition, dental, etc.
I am angry at myself and my LBS for various reasons on the outcomes of this. But being angry does no good, gives me hearburn & keeps me awake at night.
So I keep working on the diss and hope that a path becomes clear to me. The universe has something in mind for me, just not sure what that is yet.
Hope your few days have been good?
Divorced 03/2010 Mom to two amazing kids
Taking the road less traveled because those encountered on the way may be just as unique.
Thanks for the support. So are you offering to listen to my presentation? Maybe I should videotape it and put it on youtube - lol!
Actually, it'll be fine. My thesis includes a historical component that makes a great story, so I'm just going to tell the story for 10 minutes and then draw conclusions from it - ask questions (i.e. I haven't done the research!) and then hope no one else asks questions!
Sorry for the anger over the job sitch. I have to say, though, that if there isn't room for further negotiation, you probably don't want to be there anyway. Institutions that are more concerned with the rules than with honoring the proven performance of employees are too hard-nosed to be enjoyable for more than the short-term. I say that, of course, not knowing the specifics. One thing I've discovered throughout my life is that when you throw yourself into the void, the universe provides.
So I read your post to Lost. 12 months is a long time to waiver. Do you feel that this limbo period has done further damage or has it given you time to breathe and sort through your thoughts?
Hope it's dry where you are. We're sweltering - I hope the fog comes back soon.
Thanks for the support. So are you offering to listen to my presentation?
Most definately... how ever I can help. Grad students need to stick together!
Originally Posted By: lodo
So I read your post to Lost. 12 months is a long time to waiver. Do you feel that this limbo period has done further damage or has it given you time to breathe and sort through your thoughts?
well, the way I look at it, it was 6 months of getting the hell out of dodge, staying out of the line of fire for leaving (which is still causing rounds to be discharged), taking a breather from the overwhelming emotional & gut-wrenching decision to leave a marriage that had deteriorated into an abusive, energy-sapping, guilt-ridden, resentment driven co-existence. So in that sense.. that was a breather, a respite from the hell of the past year & even before that.
The past 6 months (since he finally went to individual counseling with someone that specializes in anger management) have been spent working on the dissertation with renewed vengence, watching him make changes and paying close attention to see how consistantly & reliably they fit for me & the kids, and mostly for him.
How trustworthy he is with the emotions & thoughts I share with him, and how he 'fits' me, since I (& I suppose he as well) have changed a great deal since we were married 22 years ago. Being, not only trustworthy in the moment but especially important for me, when he is angry or upset & tends to throw them (my shared intimacies) out in mean hurtful ways.
So in some respects if I were to be pushed for an answer today.. it would still be no, I want no part of a marriage with him, as we both are now. I am not ready to be in a relationship with anyone, and he has not changed enough for me to consider being in one, beyond friendship & parenting, with him. When I tell him that or even hear it myself it seems as if it does more damage.
Do I have hope given continued changes on both our parts that working together on a 'relationship' that goes beyond friendship & parenting, may be some place to be in a few months.. yes.
My fear however, is putting the time & energy into counseling, emotionally draining conversations, etc resulting in my lacking what I need to finish the diss.. so few people understand either of those components. One dear friend who finally went through some family counseling with her daughter, called me and told me she had no idea how draining counseling was and was so sorry she had not been around to support me in the early stages of our MC, now that she more fully understand what it was to do it.
It is draining.. as is making a psychotic major professor happy enough to sign off on a paper, that she has kept under her control for 4 years. Where do I put my time & energy?? I don't feel as if I have enough to do both. & of course, according to many (on here & in my 'real life') it's selfish of me to choose the diss...
Divorced 03/2010 Mom to two amazing kids
Taking the road less traveled because those encountered on the way may be just as unique.
Here I am writing to you instead of doing work, even after I got up early specifically to get things done. But what you said gave me pause.
In many ways I can imagine what you've written being written by my W. Our sitch is different in some very important ways: W & I get along well but I'd been depressed and withdrawn, she's strongly independent and focused on herself, and she'd become physically and then emotionally involved with someone playing a major part not only in her thesis work, but in the narrow field in which she wants to work.
But I think we also needed 6 months for the emotional upheaval to subside (though she didn't like being in limbo so started D). She also has been working on research with renewed vengeance, to the detriment of most other things. I imagine she sees my changes - she's definitely expressed interest in what I'm doing - but doesn't seem to want to try and balance things any more.
We've also changed, but I don't know if we've changed a great deal. I think we needed to be patient enough to ride out the bad times in order to reconnect and realize the things we DO share - though this is the door she won't open because I think it's the one that subconsciously scares her the most. I think she knows we'd probably reconnect and I don't think she wants anyone depending on her right now for attention or to balance her diss. work with the compromises needed in a relationship.
She definitely is still happy with the thought of being D. She'd say she's not ready to be in a R with anyone, that she's happy focusing on her own career and being with friends. When she tells me that, it does hurt - mainly because I think there should be an opportunity to reconnect. And I think she'd wholeheartedly agree that she doesn't want to put energy into things because that would mean less time for diss. This is also frustrating to me - extremely frustrating - and I've seen it happen to others.
The grad school experience is intense but it's still hard for me to see people put their degree work so far above their relationships. So as you predicted, I'd say it's selfish to focus on diss.
That said, I've seen many similar sitches play out and I know why people make the choices they do. A diss., after all, is important in many careers. And there really is no good way to handle the intense drain on your energy - maybe people need to make sure their R is in great shape before starting the process in order to make it through to the other side. I don't know.
My parents separated for 2 years while my step-mom went through counseling and tried to re-find what she needed in life (along with the energy to do what she needed to do). My dad showed patience and support throughout that time. I asked my W if she'd be willing to wait on D so I could show similar support and she wouldn't. It seems like you would/are. It sounds like it's up in the air whether your H is showing the patience and support that is needed.
So, it isn't fair to compare our sitches, but like I said, you gave me pause. Your words make me see parts of my sitch in a new way, though it still leads to frustration that I never got a chance.
Anyway, didn't mean to hijack your thread with my sitch but thanks for listening. Hope your day is good. And on those days when you're frustrated with your prof, just be glad you aren't my uncle. When he did his diss in science education, he was required to have 2 advisors - one in science and one in education. They refused to meet with each other and kept asking for changes contrary to what the other was wanting. Needless to say, it was a nightmare!
Hi, It seems as if your reply is a bit different than one I remembered reading first thing this morning. Unless my coffee addicted brain is playing tricks on me. Nothing majorly different, just some word changes.
I hear what you're saying in both the first one and in this one. I have heard them from H before.
Be warned.. listed below is a rant.. please let it be directed towards no one in particular, especially not at you.
It's hard to admit being selfish, he doesn't want to admit his actions of neglecting his marriage or children, by working to grow a multi-million dollar business was selfish on his part.
And I don't want to admit pursuing an advanced degree to the exclusion of a marriage is selfish on my part, but in reality they both were/are. Difference is I am admitting mine in the context of a separation, he reluctantly admits his in hindsight.
End result is,despite who is or was selfish, he has a multi-million dollar business & while I still do not have a PhD.
timing is everything.. I am literally at the do-it now or never stage with the dissertation. It has passed committee, I will collect data (again) this fall and write like a maniac over winter to defend in spring. If it doesn't happen now, it in all likelihood never will. I am not prepared to give up my dream of being able to be in this profession, I truly believe it is my calling, I know it is my passion.
I want my turn instead of just giving up my place in line so someone else.. him, my parents, my in-laws, my kids can have another piece of the resources- my time, energy, or support- I have to give in any given day. I want my resources for me for a change. I know I am the only one who can choose where they go & who gets them and I am choosing me & my kids.
I am asking a lot of him to 'keep making changes & I'll see if they work for me eventually'... that is a lot of anyone person. However, there is a part of me says.. tough sh#%. He didn't want to do what I needed in the moment, then this is the result of those choices for him.
Only he can decide if it is too much for him to do that. I decided it was too much for me to stay in the R as it was. He can decide if those conditions are too much for him to keep the separation as it is.
Rant ended..thanks for listening.
Divorced 03/2010 Mom to two amazing kids
Taking the road less traveled because those encountered on the way may be just as unique.
Nope - I didn't make any changes. How much coffee are you drinking?
I agree - you should have the opportunity to pursue the degree and he should understand that. There is no difference between your focus on that and his focus on his company, IMO. Each individual should have the opportunity to pursue their interests and dreams and a relationship should support that. Of course, there will be problems along the way.
I think a lot of problems come down to communication style and therein lies the rub. If one person in a relationship thinks they've communicated their need and the other person doesn't respond to it - then tough sh*#. But to me communicating strong feelings means being explicit - "I need to have these things right now in this R or I'm walking out the door". You seem like a fairly straightforward communicator, so I'm guessing you communicated this and H was simply too wrapped up in work. In my sitch, W never really said anything.
And I've said this earlier, but I think it sounds like you're being completely reasonable in asking him to change. The key is to work together and if he sinks instead of swims, there it is. You just need to be clear about how much energy you can and can't put into things and he needs to understand that. In my sitch, W initially said she would do that, but never really followed through - ended up being the OM influence.
I feel a little angry for the same reasons you do. I supported W while she got Master's and then did 2 years of PhD. She encouraged me to get Master's and said she'd be supportive. So I applied and got accepted and when I started spending my nights in the library, she felt abandoned. Then she reinstated in her PhD and you know the rest.
But as I said of my dad, my step-mom told him what she needed and he provided that for 2 years until she really felt ready. All he asked was that she not start up with someone else, that she'd do things with him on a regular basis, and that she'd tell him if she was unhappy about something. She asked him for space, for patience, and to come to counseling when she asked him to. I think those are reasonable demands on both their parts.
So, to wrap that all up - I think you're being reasonable. The situation is tough, but you're trying whereas my W headed to OM and D as the only possible solution.
