Need to think (and get ready for a 2:00 meeting). I'll respond to this later.
Good luck tonight! His response doesn't surprise me. It isn't very caring, nor does he appreciate the pain you're in. But he is hurting. He just doesn't understand the bigger picture. And I KNOW that's a crappy position for you to be in, because you're taking it all on and getting no respite.
How anger issues add into all this, I don't know - have never had to deal with that before.
I guess, focus on having a good time. Avoid R talk. Avoid anything unpleasant. Just say you want some time to make sure you two appreciate each other. I use the word "appreciate" because my W would say the same thing to me but use the word "understand" or "say the right thing," which comes across to someone on the defensive as negative.
I started posting under the 'new forum for WAS' thread. Here's is my first post.
------------- Hi I am a Walk-away Wife. I am 43, he is 46. I have been emotionally separated from my husband of 22 years for about 3 years and physically for a year.
At the time I left him him, he was a work-aholic, angry, verbally abusive, starting physical abuse (towards me only) man. I did not leave for another man, I left so there could be a 'me' to continue living, to continue being a 'mom' to our kids, to be a daughter to my parents, and friend to my friends. That person was in danger of disappearing emotionally & with the abuse escalating, disappearing physically.
I have low self-esteem from being raised by 2 OCD parents, as the oldest child, perfectionistic tendancies run deep in me, which were compounded by my parents unrealistic expectations & low tolerance for failure. I self-silence my needs & emotions, because of lack of trust in those I love to meet them for me, & belief that 'how could I possibly be worth it?' I understand that about myself & have been working on it in counseling for over a year and a half now.
My husband & I were HS sweethearts, each others 'first & only' and we were engaged by ages 19/22 & married by 20/23. At the time we were each others best friend.
I am pursuing a graduate degree at a university multiple hours away and working a full-time job which provides most of the day-to-day family living expenses and the all important health insurance.
His '75hour a week job' is part-owner in and managing the family-owned business, in which we have most of our savings & investments (outside my job-related retirement account). He has no steady income that comes to the family, as what is made from the business is reinvested back into it in order to make it grow. When extra expenses (vacations, car repairs, etc) arise, the business covers them. We do not own our own home, it is part of the family business that we rent it from, that part which is still owned by other members of his his family.
We have two kids early & late teens. One is leaving for college this fall. While not happy about the situation, they want happiness for both of their parents & hope that we can find it. The oldest understand both of his parents well enough to see the issues we both bring to the table & why this relationship is rocky. He understands his fathers abuse as he too has bore the brunt of the words from when he was little on. He understands my perfectionism, as he has bore the brunt of that from me as well. He is supportive of both of us, without being too judgemental, too often towards either of us.
The youngest is sad, but as she said early in the separation, she sees more of her dad now then when we were 'married'. That broke my heart & I am sure his as well. But as they say, from the mouths of babes.
I have been on DB since before I left in June of 2007. We did marriage counseling for 4 months, but when he continued to choose the job over going to counseling, I quit. He never did any DB'ing, when I first left.
In fact he did just the opposite, everything DB'ing tells you not to do. He called my friends and told them lies about why I left, he called me at all hours of the day & night, tried getting into my house, kept swinging between angry & despair, then dumping those feelings onto me & not taking any responsibility for the situation at all. It did exactly what they say it does.. pushed me even further away even faster.
In the past 6 months, we have begun talking and communicating better than we have in 20 years, if ever. I will try to answer questions that are asked respectfully, to share as best I can what is working for us and the things that changed for both of us, in order for this to occur.
We are still separated physically, although we see each other almost daily and talk on the phone multiple times a day.
I will not tolerate flamers or those who want to take me to task for being the WAW. You have not walked a mile in my shoes. If you feel the need to have someone to take your anger about your situation out on, look in the mirror and tell it to them.
As I said earlier, I will try as best I can to answer respectful questions to share a perspective from a WAS viewpoint.
Wow Bridgestone, your relationship sounds alot like mine. My W and I were high school sweethearts as well, we started dating when I was 15 and she was 13. We have been together for 22 years, married 14.
Can you tell me when your anger started to let go? I gather from reading this post that you are open to reconcile if your H does make those changes needed, am I correct in this. My W and I have been S for almost 7 months now.
With our similarities in our sitch, can you tell me what a LBS should do in my shoes? Sometimes I feel that DB doesn't work for me, what worked for your H? Thanks.
Okay - home from work and have some time to think.
First off, you can't "make" him do anything. He'll either rise to the occasion or he won't. As MWD says in various ways throughout DR, you can try different techniques to make sure you two aren't misunderstanding each other, but the best you can do is draw him towards a better of understanding of you, not make him go there.
His 'good place'? This sounds like it's tending towards something that might be treatable with medication. What does he mean by his good place and why does he call it that? Why isn't he always in his 'good place'?
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If I call him on it, doing what he promised he wouldn't do, it is like throwing gasoline on a fire.
So now you know what not to do. It's great he tries to explain himself, but if you call him on his actions in the future are you expecting a different outcome? That's one of those cheeseless tunnels. I know - frustrating - but that's reality. And I don't buy his anger being about himself letting you down. That's him trying to justify it. IMO. Sure, he may feel self-recrimination later, but in the heat of the moment it's anger towards you.
I said earlier what I thought about his attitude on the phone. Unaware and hurting.
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I told him I wanted to do this face-to-face and that it needed more time than the 3 minutes he had before he needed to go rushing back to work.
Did you really say that? The 3 minutes bit? If so, that seems like you were being a bit underhanded. If you feel something, you should say it, but making snide remarks never helps the situation.
Eggshells. I know that feeling. My W got angry when I finally admitted I was walking on them. She said she wanted me to let her know how I felt, the good, the bad, the indifferent, but never to walk on eggshells. That evening we almost got back together. Why didn't we? She left. Later, she said she didn't know why she did that, she guessed she wasn't good at sustaining relationships.
You HAVE to work towards that relaxed space. That's why I asked you early on what it'd take to stay up all night and talk about your dreams. So what would it take? Getting drunk? Being out in the woods? laying around after slathering oil all over each other and wrestling exuberantly? Just asking. It helps to think different.
I hope you had a great time at the party. I need to tell you something, though. First, I think it's great you're posting here and I really want to see you succeed - you're in an incredibly vulnerable position and you deserve so much sympathy, understanding, and support.
But talking with you is incredibly hard for me because in giving you advice I condemn myself. Reading what you write makes me realize everything I didn't do for my W, the misunderstandings I clung to, the ways I never offered support, the silly games I played to "show" I was hurt. What idiocy - why didn't I just say something? Yes, our sitches are different and my W has twice chosen to pursue OM rather than address what was really going on between us, doing so instead of even telling me she was unhappy. And yes, my W self-admittedly is focused on herself, is unwilling to compromise, and will always choose her vision of the future over a relationship. But we held it together for 12 years and we were really, really good together. The reason it is ending is not because she became attracted to another man. It's because I knew what I was to her - someone special that drew her out of the person she thought she had to be - and then I turned away and refused to support her. Over and over.
It's easy to offer advice, hard to take it. Anyway, thanks for listening. I hope you have a really good weekend. lodo
hi Lodo I can do that. I can apologize I can even articulate what I need him to do when I do apologize.
I'm sure i would get forgiveness & even what I am looking for. TODAY.
However, I am scared, based on his past actions, even as recently as a week ago, that things shared with him that mean alot to me are ridiculed, put down, tied to other things that they are not meant to be tied to in an effort to deliberately (his word choice here) be mean & hurtful to me.
I think I am giving him ammunition to fire back at me in a fight later. Why would I do that? Being careful with shared intimacies does not mean being careful with them just in the moment they are shared. It means continuing to care for them at the moment you want to fling them against the wall.
That is what has been lacking from him. As a result, the things I do share are shattered, and I keep from sharing new ones. Not sure how to break this cycle.
Boy do I relate to what you're saying here. Keep posting. I'm learning from you too. Hugs.
M 19 years, MC for 8 months, DB'd for 8 months 4 kids; 18, 15, 14, & 10 I was never meant to be a doormat. It took me years of therapy to become assertive enough to stop his abuse.
This isn't exactly uplifting or cheery, but probably appropriate. It's by a poet I really like and thought you guys might be interested in her (though she can be pretty bitter) - Marge Piercy
Eating My Tail
There are times in my life to which I return like a cat scratching, licking, worrying at an old sore, a long since exterminated nest of fleas behind my ear. I seem sure that if I keep poking and rubbing that old itch will finally be quelled. Or is it a pre-eminent pattern I seek? A mapmaker returning to the mountains to pace out again the distances. Of course, if the massacre had not occurred in this pass, why would I care?
Some disasters alter the landscape and realign even the roads driven over years before. Yes, it is the bloody moon of pain that gives a lurid backlighting to this scene I peer at suspended, a second pallid moon beating my wings of anxiety silent as a bat. Yet if pain gives portent to the words spoken it denies entrance.
They sit at the table and eat. Wine is poured, she gets up to bring warm bread. Yellow apples are heaped in an orange bowl whose sides reflect candle flames. Telling a story, she takes his hand. I know of course what she thinks is happening and how wrong she is.
But if I opened his forehead, would I find the violence and anger to come? Ah, the past. It is turning out the pocket of a jacket I wore in the garden: random pencil nubs, plant ties, half a packet of seeds never planted, a mummified peach, herbs picked and forgotten - a combination of intention and waste. Is how it all fell down the meaning of that scene? Yet they laugh heartily and the soup steams and the golden apples shine like lumps of amber.
The present tears at the past as if living were something the mind could ever hold like water in a cup or a map in the hand. Maps are abstractions useful for finding whatever is actually entered on them. Otherwise you just walk in. And through. When you go back it's always someplace else.
His 'good place'? This sounds like it's tending towards something that might be treatable with medication. What does he mean by his good place and why does he call it that? Why isn't he always in his 'good place'?
Good question..
His good place is what I would call his 'conscious choice' of being quiet, careful, gentle, congnizant with what I share. He has been what I call 'oblivious' to my bids to have him truly listen in the past and as such, because of who he is naturally- brusque, introverted with limited emotional intelligence- he has to make an effort to put himself into a 'good, listening' mode. Otherwise it is 'habit' - unconsious action- of not really listening. Not something I think needs medication, just something that needs awareness and practice.
Originally Posted By: lodo
. And I don't buy his anger being about himself letting you down. That's him trying to justify it. IMO. Sure, he may feel self-recrimination later, but in the heat of the moment it's anger towards you.
This thought gives me pause.. can you explain this further please?
Originally Posted By: lodo
Originally Posted By: bridgstone
I told him I wanted to do this face-to-face and that it needed more time than the 3 minutes he had before he needed to go rushing back to work.
Did you really say that? The 3 minutes bit? If so, that seems like you were being a bit underhanded. If you feel something, you should say it, but making snide remarks never helps the situation.
No.. actually they were his words.. "i have 3 minutes before I need to get back to work, can you make this quick, I am really rushed today." I just was putting them together with my request.
Originally Posted By: lodo
You HAVE to work towards that relaxed space. That's why I asked you early on what it'd take to stay up all night and talk about your dreams. So what would it take? Getting drunk? Being out in the woods? laying around after slathering oil all over each other and wrestling exuberantly? Just asking. It helps to think different.
to ditch the emotional baggage with him that makes me fearful (my problem) and for him to consistently exhibit behaviors (words & actions) that would be reassuring and help build trust and safety needed for that level of emotional connectedness.
It is not about a place or one particular action (slathering oil & wrestling, although quite a tantalizing mental image!) It's about a feeling of being valued, cherished and safe, with no incrimination or patronization.
Getting those things from someone will not happen overnight. It may be easier with someone new as I don't have to overcome my negative connotations of what sharing with him means to me emotionally. It's like there is a negative balance in my trust/safety account with him. Probably with others too, but mostly with him.. He needs to do things, say things that reduces that negative balance and then builds it back to a positive level that allows the being drunk & oil slathering to make a difference.
Originally Posted By: lodo
But talking with you is incredibly hard for me because in giving you advice I condemn myself. Reading what you write makes me realize everything I didn't do for my W, the misunderstandings I clung to, the ways I never offered support, the silly games I played to "show" I was hurt. What idiocy - why didn't I just say something? ..... The reason it is ending is not because she became attracted to another man. It's because I knew what I was to her - someone special that drew her out of the person she thought she had to be - and then I turned away and refused to support her. Over and over.
I am sorry, that listening to me hurts so much. I imagine that it is much the same for my H. there is more for this but it is about me.. not about you. Making mistakes is the only way we really learn, especially some of the lifes hard lessons. It's regretful that learning your lesson about offering real support to a partner had to have the consequences that it did. I hope your wife can learn something about being a partner as well as she makes her life journey.
Originally Posted By: lodo
It's easy to offer advice, hard to take it. Anyway, thanks for listening. I hope you have a really good weekend. lodo
So far it has been good. I took your advice to ask him for some time together without the kids or others (as the party was) so we could "appreciate" each other. His job is really hectic right now as it is weather dependent which has not been cooperating in allowing the timeliness of getting various portions completed.
His work-a-holic behaviours has been a major sticking point in the past, and that type of asking would get me a whole litany of things that had to be done.
His response this time to my request was, that while he had these things to get done in the next 10 days (I was thinking oh-oh, here we go again.. same old, same old)
but he continued and said he would make his management decisions to get his work done with my request as his priority.. WOW.. that one blew me away, brought tears to my eyes... and yes he did, he followed through!!
He met me at my house when I got home from campus yesterday and took me out for beers & supper to let me blow off steam. He was a wonderful listener as well as partner in the conversation.. he had new things to add, insights, and empathy.
I was appreciative, there was physical touch while we were talking.. on his arm, smiles & laughter, and a good-night kiss as he dropped me off at the door. I kept telling him how much I appreciated his actions & words.. that they mattered & I was so happy that he showed me I was a priority.
I hope you have a good weekend as well. Sailing? Were those your plans?
Divorced 03/2010 Mom to two amazing kids
Taking the road less traveled because those encountered on the way may be just as unique.
But to answer a few of your questions.. I'm not sure I have let my anger be gone yet. I have given some of it different names... bitterness, disappointment, hurt, sadness, betrayal, shame, patronized... each of those need to be dealt with individually.. some of them are taking longer than others.
I am righteously angry still, mostly about how his abusive langauge and work-a-holism has affected our children and their expecations of their future lives and parenthood (our son, who is 18, recently told me he does not want to have children).
Our 13 year old daughter shared when her & I were discussing her future plans, that she did not want to do too much college (beyond a BA) because it was too hard with kids, jobs, and all the chores that Mom's are expected to do.
Are those POV by my kids ONLY because of his actions, no.. however I believe, my POV, they play a large role in them.
Reading the 5 langauges of apology has helped me release some of these emotions & forgive him, ONCE he recognized his roles & repsonsibility. I'm not sure how long I would have hung onto the resentment if he had not taken responsibility. Probably a lot, lot longer.
i'm not sure yet, what I'm open to with H. Reconcile? Right now I'm working for friendship and I'm not shutting the door for his changes to make a difference to me. Baby-steps.
Thanks for stopping by my thread and sharing.
Last edited by Bridgestone; 06/15/0803:10 PM.
Divorced 03/2010 Mom to two amazing kids
Taking the road less traveled because those encountered on the way may be just as unique.
Are you like smartcookie, smw, and I, doing schoolwork all weekend? Well, I did goof off for a bit yesterday to get some planting done - good option for procrastinating. The place I'm renting has a great patio but nothing was taken care of. That's okay - now I can create what I like rather than taking care of someone else's poor choices!
Now I understand what H's 'good place' is. This sounds like a common problem in men - I've seen descriptions similar to yours in other books, websites, etc. I wonder why we're such poor listeners. I always thought I was a good listener, but realize now that listening and comprehension are 2 different things. Even when I go back and read some of your posts, I understand the words in different ways. Awareness and practice are definitely needed.
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And I don't buy his anger being about himself letting you down. That's him trying to justify it. IMO. Sure, he may feel self-recrimination later, but in the heat of the moment it's anger towards you.
This thought gives me pause.. can you explain this further please?
I don't know how his anger manifests itself, of course, so I could be completely wrong. But no one lashes out from a sense of self-recrimination. Anger is aggression. It is a sort of wishing harm on another person. Maybe there is underlying guilt that causes such a reaction, but IMO, if you react to criticism with anger over something you may feel guilty about, it is a form of blaming the other for your own inadequacies rather than facing them in the moment. If you faced them in the moment, you'd apologize, or discuss, not react and become defensive. "I'm trying, d*mnit!" doesn't mean, "I wish I were doing better," it means "why don't YOU appreciate me more." That's why anger management needs to be learned. But I don't know - things may be completely different in your sitch.
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It is not about a place or one particular action (slathering oil & wrestling, although quite a tantalizing mental image!) It's about a feeling of being valued, cherished and safe, with no incrimination or patronization.
I know, but you have to start somewhere Seriously, though, I think it's important to just try to relax sometimes. To connect - because that's what's needed to reach those feelings of being valued, cherished and safe - but to try to do so in a relaxed manner rather than constantly discussing it. Doesn't MWD bring up something about taking your clothes off and then trying to fight? That's what I mean - to change the dynamic so you aren't focusing so much on the emotional baggage and the fears but just on the moment. That's what would happen with someone new, right? You're just in the moment? I don't know - just brainstorming.
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I am sorry, that listening to me hurts so much.
Now, now, you don't get to take on my stuff. Listening to you is great! Responding to you is hard because my opinions do not match what my actions have been. When I was upset over something with W, why didn't I slather her with oil and make her feel special so that we could discuss the problem in a safe place? I can't answer that.
The workaholic thing is hard. That's great that he made an effort regarding work and then followed through. Sounds like that was a really positive experience - so happy for you
I was going to go sailing, but plans changed so I planted instead. And I have a proposal to write, a presentation to put together, and a paper to research. The life of someone trying to work and study at the same time ...
Good morning all, A late night and early morning, not a good combination for me.
Am trying to finish a presentation for the online course I'm helping teach this summer. It is on a topic I'm not entirely comfortable with, nor am I familiar with the technology that allow me to create it so it can be online. It has been a slow process, but one that kept my mind occupied to help pass the time yesterday.
Went out to lunch upon H's last minute request yesterday. Tried to relax into the moment, take a page from the LBS manual and act 'as if', not chase cheeseless tunnels, and what do I get from H?
"What is wrong with you?" When I looked at him and could honestly say, "nothing" with out adding my usual Why? on the end, said with a smile & squeeze of his leg (as he sat next to me in the booth). He went quiet, and was withdrawn the rest of the lunch & ride back home. I kept up my people watching and running dialouge with S. about college & work, and with D about her favorite subject 're-decorating'. Trying to include him in the conversation, but he was withdrawn and really only engaging with the kids.
All in all it was a really OK day for me. Then he called around 11:30 last night and seemed (ok he was, not just seemed) really terse & short about 'dealing with Daughter.' over the next few days.
I tried to empathetically listen to his frustrations of parenting a teen age daughter in this particular situation. Which only seemed to frustrate him more.
He snapped at me, some back-handed remark about being not his choice that she was at his house & her friends were 20 minutes away (actually that is not true, as we agreed to send her to this school 20 minutes away almost 3 years ago, long before I left).
When I really didn't take the bait, which I took as his trying to guilt me about leaving him (this would have been something I would have handled pre-separation) and just said something about I can understand the difficulty in lining up social time for the kids when things are hectic in the adult side of life (I really can, I have done it for years). He grunted and said good night.
OK guys...can you give me a DAM interpretation of this behaviour & talk?
I have tried not to get to wrapped up in his outbursts of late, but when they revolve around the kids & impact their lives, I feel this is one area, we really need to communicate regardless of the outcome of the R.
OK>. I really need to get to work on this presentation again as I need to be on the road here shortly and the finishing touches need to go on.
Last edited by Bridgestone; 06/16/0811:28 AM.
Divorced 03/2010 Mom to two amazing kids
Taking the road less traveled because those encountered on the way may be just as unique.
