"Saru mo ki kara ochiru."

[Nutty Chick]

...I set a standard for myself. Lines were crossed over and over. There comes a time.....



FIB

I have struggled myself with boundaries being trampled on time and time again. Things that were important to me disregarded because of someone else’s issues. Issues that they denied or were too afraid to own up to.

There does indeed come a time when you have to look at the past, realise it is likely to be a predictor of the future and decide whether that is good enough for you. Sometimes you just gotta get up and move on.

That doesn’t necessarily mean give up … it means advancing in a different direction.

Good Luck FIB.

[faithisbelieving]

And I agree Nutty. This is a great place to be when this whole thing unfurls....when 'the bomb' comes. This place gives comfort and strength and sets you on a necessary path to stem the hemorrhage of pain. It gives you the tools to look inward at how you function (or malfunctioned) in one's M and how to create change.

But..how long do you stay with someone who can't do the same? How long do you allow yourself to be hurt and mistreated? Where does 'in sickness and in health, for better or for worse' suddenly become for them, "well...not too sick or not too worse."

Does there come a time when you'll be pulled under and drown if you don't let go?

What is codependent love, or, as my friend frank_d said to me, when is your R 'toxic':

1. Love - Development of self first priority.
Toxic love - Obsession with relationship.

2. Love - Room to grow, expand; desire for other to grow.
Toxic love - Security, comfort in sameness; intensity of need seen as proof of love (may really be fear, insecurity, loneliness)

3. Love - Separate interests; other friends; maintain other meaningful relationships.
Toxic love - Total involvement; limited social life; neglect old friends, interests.

4. Love - Encouragement of each other's expanding; secure in own worth.
Toxic love - Preoccupation with other's behavior; fear of other changing.

5. Love - Appropriate Trust (i.e. trusting partner to behave according to fundamental nature.)
Toxic love - Jealousy; possessiveness; fear of competition; protects "supply."

6. Love - Compromise, negotiation or taking turns at leading. Problem solving together.
Toxic love - Power plays for control; blaming; passive or aggressive manipulation.

7. Love - Embracing of each other's individuality.
Toxic love - Trying to change other to own image.

8. Love - Relationship deals with all aspects of reality.
Toxic love - Relationship is based on delusion and avoidance of the unpleasant.

9. Love - Self-care by both partners; emotional state not dependent on other's mood.
Toxic love - Expectation that one partner will fix and rescue the other.

10. Love - Loving detachment (healthy concern about partner, while letting go.)
Toxic love - Fusion (being obsessed with each other's problems and feelings.)

11. Love - Sex is free choice growing out of caring & friendship.
Toxic love - Pressure around sex due to insecurity, fear & need for immediate gratification.

12. Love - Ability to enjoy being alone.
Toxic love - Unable to endure separation; clinging.

13. Love - Cycle of comfort and contentment.
Toxic love - Cycle of pain and despair.

FIB

[one_light]

Hey FIB,

Glad to see you are holding strong. Having to just let go and accept must be tough. As you already know, you're not chopped liver. The fact that you went through this ordeal and held fast like the needle to the pole is evidence of your strength and character. God has something big in store for you. He needed you to learn something from all of this. The next thing that comes along will be more wonderful and fulfilling than you can even imagine.

[Nutty Chick]

When you put it like that FIB, My relationship is kinda TOXIC. But then I knew that. I think that is part of what holds me on .. wanting and trying to make it better!!

I have been apart from my H for about 8 - 9 monthes now.In that time, I have learned so much and grown hugely! But you are quite right, there does come a time when you realise that no matter how much you do you will never be able to fix things, especially if the other person doesn't want to.

How did you know when that time was?

was there something particular that happened .. or did you just wake up one morning and think enough is enough?

I am going to do some reading on codependancy.

Thankyou so much for that!

NC

[cat03]

ouch FIB, your points are so true, I see my life of the past 8mths in those posts about toxic love and lines crossed.

There is also another word for that: enabling

When you try to "save" that person so much that you don't let them face up their mistakes or sweep them under the rug and hold your breath hoping for a miracle from a person who is unable to grow a spine and do things right even if they hurt.

[princess_nic]

Thank you for that post, FIB. It is a good reminder to me of what I need to look out for in my next R. It is a good description of my M.

[faithisbelieving]

To all..this has been a very long road. Trust me...I remember the day of the bomb quite clearly. Always will. I believe what is written with the toxic stuff. This is NOT failure..it's a lesson in life. To think otherwise is victimizing oneself. It took me 2 years to learn that...and I am still learning.

If anyone goes back to my earlier posts, it was a sad time. Someone who saw babysteps when his W was having sex with another man. I don't like that word anymore. I don't think there are babysteps...and I also don't believe anymore that it is selfish to expect that someone apologizes to you when they've hurt you...nor to accept the burden that is required to regain the trust and make good on the vows they broke.

Today....now...I speak from 'the outside'....from a place that many people don't want to be. It's a place that people fear here and, understandably so.

I am a plaintiff.

My W is a defendant.

The picture of me with my arm around her in front of the Matterhorn in Zermatt with the St. Bernard in front of us...is down and packed.

The huge wedding picture of us is....under her dresser.

My pillow....is on the couch downstairs.

My wedding ring....is in a box in our walk-in closet.

The gentle caresses....the intimate moments of being entwined with her under the covers...the smell of her hair as I drifted off to sleep in it...the warmth of her back against my chest....are gone....leaving behind only anger and an abyssmal cold. The earth is scorched and love segues into....indifference.

Time is a thief.

Yes...I love my wife..and if you think filing for divorce makes that go away, well, it doesn't. And I will miss her..or..should I say I will miss the way we were.

But..love ISN'T supposed to hurt...not like this, nor , inflicted upon us like it happens to so many here. So...to Nutty Chick....why? Why did I file? Why did I leave the masses here? Why did I do the 'abominable' thing here and leave the 'standers'? Why did I choose the DB path less travelled?

The answer is complicated, but, in some ways easy. The complicated answer lies in almost 2 years of posts here which you can read. The simple answer is....I came to the conclusion that my M had become destructive to me as a person and that for me, the hope for reconciliation was, in fact, a form of denial. You can't 'fix' your marriage by yourself...and life is too short to be hanging onto someone who has no interest in you.

To make it even simpler, I think there were three events that told me that there was something wrong with my W that, without commitment to medication and intense therapy, would never allow us to heal:

• the castigation of our nephew, age 5, who lives across the street, to the point of denigrating him verbally in front of our son (his cousin) and writing a letter to the Superintendent of Schools to have him 'banished' to the front seat of the bus..even though his brother, age 8 wanted to sit with him. Ironically, my W is his godmother
• my W arranging me to babysit for our kids the night she had an 'outing' with OM....and when I arrived 10 minutes late, she yelled at me for delaying her to go out
• after discovery of OM3...she pushed my wedding band back on my finger..in front of our children, bringing on a reaction of joy from my S7..proceeding to give me 2 powerfully written cards of wanting the M back..wanting our life back....and then continuing with OM3. On 12/2 I found that she 'googled' his name..but..not just on google...she went into 'MySpace' and searched his name, implying that she was looking for intimate information on him. Not only did she violate my trust again, but she violated the 'visual promise' that she made in front of my son

I can vouch for the destruction that divorce causes. Not only the hurt but the financial pain as well (I hear the forensic atty. that will at one point review my practice will cost me $20,000).

I chose this. I asked myself...would my children suffer MORE....if I stayed with my W...and I said 'yes'. I cannot live, here, without knowing where my W is with whom. I asked myself could I live without trust? I asked myself, would my W...EVER ..have the strength, courage and integrity to repair this? You know my answers to these questions.

Finally, last night, I was reading Dr. Seuss to both my kids when, near the end, my W came upstairs and plopped herself in the bed. I arose to 'go to the bathroom' and went downstairs to take my place on the proverbial couch. It was not long before my son came downstairs.

S7: Dad...why did you go downstairs? Aren't you going to go sleep with us and mommy?

Long pause.

Me:...no...S7..
S7: Why????

And he bursts into tears.

In great pain, I reached over and pulled him into to me...and held his head to my chest...and I brushed his hair back and stroked his forehead...and thought very hard.

Me: S7...tonites daddy's night to sleep downstairs. I know this seems sad, but, I love you very much...and so does mom. This has nothing to do with you. You're a good boy. Daddy will always be here for you....and I will always...always love you.

I pray...that ...some of you...may find the reconciliation that you all so desperately wish to have.

God bless.

FIB

[Nutty Chick]

Thankyou so much for this post.

I found amongst it 3 of the reasons that I filed today.

But..love ISN'T supposed to hurt...not like this,


I came to the conclusion that my M had become destructive to me as a person and that for me, the hope for reconciliation was, in fact, a form of denial.

I asked myself...would my children suffer MORE....if I stayed with my W...and I said 'yes'.

I don't feel filing is an 'abominable' thing to have done. I feel that to have carried on standing and hurting and letting my son watch me waste away mentally, physically, and spiritually would have been abominable.

I am walking away with dignity and a peaceful heart. My H is a sad man. He is no longer the person I married. If I met him today, as he is, I wouldn't give him a second glance. Like your W he needs a huge amount of psychotherapy. Like your W he has a grubby little band aid holding him together. Like your W he will, no doubt wake up one day and realise what he has lost and the damage he has done.

And of course DBing will go on. Because it is about more than saving a marriage, its about a way of life and being a better person. It’s about human behaviour and compassion. It is about becoming the kind of person you hope to meet one day. It’s about being proud of yourself and the decisions you make.

You can and should be proud.

God Bless FIB.

NC x

[faithisbelieving]

Nutty....you may know my friend frank_d here. Frank_d suffered quite a bit in trying to save his M. I respect him. At times when I would have thrown in the towel, frank kept me going. It's easy to say now, using the retrospectoscope, that I should have filed 15 months ago.

No.

I learned much from frank_d's insight. He taught me a lot about myself. Sadly, he struggles now within his own M. But..Nutty...some of the most powerful pieces of advice or support can sometimes be, well, of few words. So, I share with you a short email that my friend frank_d wrote to me:

You'll be OK

Nutty....you'll be OK. And, I agree with you, it's taken me a long time to realize that, filing for divorce as a 'member' of the divorcebusting community....is not abominable. In fact, it may be lifesaving.

HUGS.
FIB

[faithisbelieving]

PS Nutty....keep to the high road. No need to defend yourself anymore....forgive...and stop the self-blame. Continue to listen...no more anger....move forward. I support you. FIB