I am getting so weary of this struggle. I need to let her go, and have been trying to do so, but unfortunately our two S's are now caught in this tug-of-war between us. I need to stand my ground, but I cannot allow that to begin to harm my S's. It's such a delicate balancing act. And as W's ire and hostility level increases - for merely the simple fact that I continue to persist/exist -- I panic, make too many mistakes and backslide. I am too slow of a learner in the arts of passive resistance and psychological judo.
I am also too stubborn in adhering to my convictions. W wants me to say nothing about "adult matters" to our S's. That's fine. Except she includes in that anything that relates to our family status in general, which I, however, feel is fair game for sharing with our S's. W really just wants me to say nothing at all... about anything to our S's. The problem is I just can't do that. These are momentous, life-altering events happening to this family that will affect our S's gravely for the rest of their days. I can't ignore what is happening and leave my S's to try to figure out how to cope with this, or worse, go along with W in trying to make this destruction all sound so matter-of-fact, proper and even desirable. I am not going to participate in "selling" this D to my S's.
I still love my W, and I used to cover for her when she would come home late (before the bomb) or call our S's late (post-bomb). I used to talk about how hard Mommy worked or how long her day must have been. I can't do that any longer -- the words just stick in my throat. But for my children's sake, I have to say little or nothing at all, lest I say something contradictory to what W might say to them herself. That's the impression I'm getting from her.
I am also too stubborn in adhering to my convictions. W wants me to say nothing about "adult matters" to our S's. That's fine. Except she includes in that anything that relates to our family status in general, which I, however, feel is fair game for sharing with our S's. W really just wants me to say nothing at all... about anything to our S's. The problem is I just can't do that. These are momentous, life-altering events happening to this family that will affect our S's gravely for the rest of their days. I can't ignore what is happening and leave my S's to try to figure out how to cope with this, or worse, go along with W in trying to make this destruction all sound so matter-of-fact, proper and even desirable. I am not going to participate in "selling" this D to my S's.
NoCode, I've been following you thread for awhile and just wanted to chime in on this last post. Don't know if you've seen any of my threads (I've not posted nearly as much as some others on here), but we were at the point where you are now. We had been to a mediator I had even gotten to the point where I had my lawyer draw up a filing for D. We were days away from having those papers filed when things took a dramatic turn for the better. Anyhow, the point that I really wanted to bring up was discussing this with the kids. If your W doesn't want you having adult conversations with them, so be it. But they need to know and you should insist that you have this discussion together as a family. SOON! I pulled the quote below from Frank_D's first thread. I thought it was point on and I had a similar discussion with my W when things were at their worst.
Originally Posted By: Frank_D
Mom and Dad love each other, but Mom isn't in love with Dad any more and needs to move on to find her spiritual path in life. We'll be staying in this house and living together as a family but mom and dad will be separate. (C said to make sure it was clear that W was making the choices, not both of us together. This is better than the previous story where we took equal responsibility. She said that I shouldn't have to take any reponsibility except for not being able to give W the love she apparenlty needs and is seeking. W is divorcing me, Not mutually.)
Your W is having the A. Your W wants the D. She needs to take that responsibility in the discussion with the kids. I think just the thought of breaking this news to the kids can be a big reality check for the WAS.
i have to agree with HFF but only up to a point. You certainly must have the conversation with the children together, BUT even though it is the W's decision to get the divorce you have to be careful to not bash her in front of the children. They will learn the truth eventually of the entire situation and they will form their own opinions about their mother.
If you both sit down and talk to them about it but there is obvious anger in your voice and you are outright blaming her, they will be very upset. They are going to have very negative feelings about their mother right off the bat. i don't think that is fair to a 3 and 7 year old. They are just too young and it's not fair.
I agree that they eventually need to know that it was mom's choice but they are going to be devasted enough right now and need to know that they can go to either parent for love and support. Mom is not divorcing them she is divorcing dad.
it just needs to be handled delicately for their sake. This conversation is not the conversation to vindicate you no matter how hurt and angry you might be. JMHO as a mom.
Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take,rather by the moments that take our breath away. M38,H40 M14 K D11 S8 D - June 09
I appreciate what you are each saying. I will admit that haven't always shouldered my pain well, even in front of my S's. S7 has Asperger's Syndrome (AS), and yet he is still very perceptive of how his father's interactions with his mother can affect him. I am sure he sees me one moment light-hearted and enjoying my time with he and his little brother, then the next moment I have some form of interaction with his mother -- both of our demeanors change. Even if Daddy holds it together, S7 can probably tell how it still gets to me in the most subtle (or not-so-subtle) ways. I am just not the kind of person who is accustomed to faking my emotions -- I can suppress them certainly -- I am good at that (for a while at least)-- but I have great difficulty in disguising or falsifying them. And even the suppression of one's feelings telegraphs so much to others.
Even so, whenever I speak of their mother to my S's, even if I am upset with her behavior, it is always with compassion for her and respect for her love as a mother to them. I always make it perfectly clear that they should always love and respect their mother, that she is a good person at heart who also deserves their honor and respect.
Unfortunately for us both, it is all too obvious that this separation represents a serious rift between us, no matter how much we might try to sugar-coat it. Our S's each understand that when they fight or disagree with each other, that leads to them being separated as well, but that is but a temporary thing. The fact that the separation between their parents is so lasting bespeaks of a serious conflict that is not being repaired. There is not the expected "kiss and make up" that concludes the time-out.
My W uses this to instruct our S's that Daddy's anger and bad behavior is the cause for this rift, and why Mommy can never live with Daddy ever again. This puts me in the position of being the bad guy, and I cannot say I tolerate her spin on this situation well at all. In fact, it upsets me greatly and I tend to go overboard in countering this impression. If I say anything that counters this, however, S7 realizes the discrepancies and he has the natural tendency to want to conclude that one of us is not being entirely candid. And somewhere S7 got the impression that it was I who wanted to separate us (I suspect it was the MIL.) So I have taken the policy of telling our S's that I do not want this separation or the D -- this is their mother's decision -- and that I still love her and want this to work out, but it is not likely right now since the final decision is not in my control.
S7 hears these conflicting points of views and conflicting information and concludes that one must be false. I think for the long term sake of my S's, I have to find someway to attenuate the appearance of this disagreement. I have to detach even more and refrain from sending an opposing message to my children, if my W insists on this. Sadly, I am beginning to feel that I will have to relax my grasp on my place in their lives lest my W rip them apart between us. This is so hard. Our S's need us both -- why can't she see that? I am trying to find a balance, but it is becoming so much more difficult the more my W panics.
I have to work on this, for the sake of my S's, if nothing else.
NoCode, I find it interesting that your S7 has Aspergers. I've always noticed a similarity in the personality of your W and my H (as you describe your W). My S14 and D8 also are autism spectrum diagnosed with PDD-NOS. I've suspected some of my H's problems and our R problems might relate from his having some Asperger issues himself (we were involved in a genetic family study with University of Washington b/c they think Asperger/autism spectrum may be genetic). H has problems communicating, anger, etc. He also doesn't want to talk to the kids much if at all about the separating and divorce. Do you think your wife might also have some Asperger type issues as well or am I way off with that? I apologize if I offend you with that as I don't mean to! Karen
No, by no means does that in any way offend me. In fact, I have considered this myself, and you mentioning this gives me cause to chuckle.
Let me explain: Right after the bomb, my W insisted there was something severely wrong with me psychologically that I could become so depressed and emotionally detached from her, to the point of neglecting her (and her womanly needs). She insisted that I must be the carrier of any genetic defect that led to S7's AS and SID condition. So I enrolled in the University of North Carolina's TEACCH program (for AS and Autism Spectrum Disorders) to enroll S7 in this state-sponsored program and to get myself screened. My screening proved negative -- nothing in my psychological and emotional makeup that warranted any further testing. (I have since learned that my depression was the core reason for why I withdrew from her and from life, and explained my then emotional blindness as well.)
Now it is my understanding, and I am just a lay person in my studies of AS and HFA, but I believe that the jury is still out on whether there is a definitive genetic link to AS, and there is no widespread consensus on this as yet. I don't ever rule it our myself, as it would make some sense that there might be at least some genetic link to a predisposition towards having this disorder, but no one really knows just yet. The U of W program (funny, W and I had lived in the Seattle area for over three years, by coincidence) sounds to be focusing on trying to answer this question. (I'd really be interested in hearing more about it.)
Nevertheless, given that there are no conclusions about hereditary links to AS, and my W thinking of herself as a lay expert on the subject, she should know better than to assume one exists between S7 and myself. Still, she insisted and I did what it took to either prove or disprove her assertion (she has since moved on to find other explanations for why we are not meant to be together.)
When I originally began the paperwork to enroll S7 in the TEACCH program, I had started to enroll both of us parents in the screening process. W thought I was insane and being ridiculous for suggesting she might have AS herself. Her rationale is that she sees herself as a kind and highly empathic person, being a Registered Nurse in fact, that cares for others and has a proper reaction to the emotions of others. No way could she be the source of S7's AS, or so she assumes.
Again, this is one more thing that appears to be a projection of W's words, feelings and deeds upon me.
Husband (Dr. Love) had a response (right after my screening proved negative for AS) that I still chuckle about, "get your W tested!"
The question is, do I believe W has AS? No, not really, though it really wouldn't surprise me either. While I might enjoy entertaining the idea as a sweet irony, I don't think it helps our case one way or the other. W will never consent to having herself screened anyway.
As for the current behaviors of my W and your H, I think they're more typical of the WAS than AS. But what do I really know? They now say Autism Spectrum Disorders are far more prevalent in the population than people first realized. Maybe AS-like traits are inherent in all WAS' anyway?
But I am convinced that, at the very least, the WAS has had to have gotten what someone in the forums described as an "empathy bypass procedure."
Now it is my understanding, and I am just a lay person in my studies of AS and HFA, but I believe that the jury is still out on whether there is a definitive genetic link to AS, and there is no widespread consensus on this as yet. I don't ever rule it our myself, as it would make some sense that there might be at least some genetic link to a predisposition towards having this disorder, but no one really knows just yet.
The reason why I think my H has Aspergers is that he has sensory integration issues, doesn't like to be touched, ADHD type issues, he was on Ritalin as a child though never diagnosed with ADHD, believe it or not the researchers told me large head size is common in autism spectrum and H and my children all have extra large head sizes!,(I know that is weird!).
H has a hard time communicating, will leave the room in the middle of a conversation, etc. His mom told me when he was young when he was playing sports something like he was always in his own world or something like that, he would space out, which is how my son was described when he was in school.
Anyway, I know that doesn't cause all of our problems obviously, but I sure think it doesn't help (if we'd been able to communicate better and touching more would have helped us to have a stronger R and prevent the affair maybe although of course who knows?).
BTW, I have always suspected my MIL also has Aspergers, b/c she has a lot of these issues also, with sensory integration, can't stand to be touched, dislikes many people and all children, etc. (she is a lot like my H!) and she is also a registered nurse btw)!!! Karen
Wow, Karen, thanks for the link. Very interesting reading -- I intend to follow-up on UW's research.
S7 has no problems with being touched -- actually he has the opposite problem: he craves strongly pressured contact with others. He loves hugging other people, especially other children. It's now not quite as bad as when he was younger, but he still keeps sneaking hugs out of S3 every chance he gets (S3 gets tired of it at times and pushes S7 away.) When S7 was younger he would approach a stranger, a little girl or some other small child in public and have this urge to hug them out of the blue. It would sometimes alarm some parents and children. Some found it strange but cute.
As for the big-head trait, it certainly runs in my family, especially on my father's side. S7 certainly has a big noggin', just like his dad. S3 who appears to be perfectly neurotypical has an even larger melon for his age than his older brother, for what that's worth. (Unfortunately for my W, our S's somewaht larger than usual craniums caused her untold problems in birthing them. In fact, my W's MLC began in earnest about the time she got herself "repaired" as a result of S3's entry into the world.)
On my W's side of the family, particularly her mother's side, there are also some really ripe candidates for Autism-Spectrum disorder. My MIL is certainly empathy-challenged. I have mentioned that W's cousin has a daughter who suffers from seizures and NLD (Non-verbal Learning Disability). NLD is considered a "kissing cousin" (if you will) to Asperger's. But my W never discusses it.
Your MIL is a nurse too? And might have AS? You don't say! That is very interesting indeed.
Yeah, NoCode, it seems like everytime I am reading one of your posts something will catch my eye that seems like it is similar to my sitch: you mentioned your kids have sensory integration, your W seems to have a similar personality to my H and acts a lot like my H, then the autism spectrum, etc. I have always been pulling for your M to work out well as a result! Karen
Laying low this week. No progress on the W front. W is proceeding with getting the painters inside our house to patch and repair the interior walls. W says to me they won't touch the murals on the children's bedroom walls -- for whatever that's worth. She wants me to use our tax return check to fund the house repairs.
<Rhetorical Questions:> If W wants me to stay in the house and not sell it, then why is she now fully on board with (and being proactive) in getting the house repainted and repaired? Could it be because she wants the appraisal to go very well? Could it be she wants to inflate the equity (and her share of it) so I'll owe her even more to buy her out (she supposes)?
<more journaling> We returned from Sunday service around noon and we pass by the subdivision of our house both coming and going to church. S7 began to get sick and threw up on himself (said he wasn't hungry for lunch, felt a bit too warm, and then up came his breakfast.)
I made a quick detour by the house to get S7 cleaned up (rather than drive an additional 6 miles back to my apartment first.) W was not at home (as expected), but MIL was not there either (not expected). More-so, the newspapers from yesterday morning and this morning were still on the driveway. And once inside it looked like no one had been there in days. This tells me that WAW was spending the night again elsewhere -- no doubt with the OM. The MIL is undoubtedly out of town again, and so W uses that as her chance to lie with the OM.
What a tramp. (I really am beginning to know how Hosea felt.)
I also came across W's cellphone. I snooped -- and, yes, it was wrong, so 2x4's away. It had been wiped of history but it contained a strange entry in the phonebook menu. The number itself was for the "spare" phone W purchased last July for the OM (and placed on our "family plan", if any of you remember), which she continues to flatly deny. The name for this entry was cryptic, four capital letters in the format "MY__" with the last two letters the same as the initials of the OM.
So if OM name was "Sh*t Head" this entry would have been "MYSH".
As in, "My Sh*t Head". How quaint.
W thinks she is so clever.
I thinks it's now the turn of S7's father (me) to go barf.
