I was being a bit facetious myself. I got your drift. I am afraid I'm becoming a bit cyncial reading all these sad stories. Especially when my husband and I did Retrouvaille, and we saw how little one really needs to change to bring a marriage from negative to positive. I cannot understand why people will go through their lives miserable, when 2 days of working together can make it much better.
So I suppose you can guess what my answer to your question is. Yes, I think the weekend, by itself is worth the effort. The post sessions reinforce the change and give you more structured practice. But for a long time Retrouvaille was just the weekend, and people were on their own after that. I think the success rate improved when they added the Post sessions.
There is a workbook that you get at the first Post session. So if you could get them to mail you 2 workbooks after you finish the weekend, you could do the post session lessons at home. I'm not saying it would be as good as attending. But it would be better than not working on the lessons. Concepts such as love is a decision, commitment is a decision, and forgiveness is a decision are taught at the Post sessions. But this is all reinforcement of the weekend.
In a lot of places Retrouvaille contacts both spouses and asks each if they are going to the weekend with an open mind and a willing heart. They didn't do that here in Tampa, when we went, but I've heard from others that that was a requirement. How open minded and how willing a heart is not measured. She just has to say yes.
Thank you for your suggestion. There is still enough there that I think if I could get her to agree and attend things would work out. I am pretty detached at this point, I want things to work but I'm also ready to move on if I have to.
Well W wants to talk Saturday, we have been talking about sitting down for a while. She knows where I stand and has dropped some good hints but she also might be trying to let me down easy. It's hard because I suspect an affair and we have approached this subject, my radar after being with her for 10, married for 7 says she isn't lying. I can tell, but now I don't know what to believe. It seems a lot of the trust bank is empty.
Well I'm over on the newcomer board and W delivered the D papers 2 Monday ago. She didn't file them she wanted us to agree on them first, but she won't talk about them with me and after I heard she was working on them I forced her to bring them to me. I honestly don't think she would have if I didn't ask.
So I know the terms of what she wants and I'm willing to agree, my proposal, I'll play it by ear, is that if she will agree to attend, then if nothing changes after I will agree to file uncontested on the terms she has asked for. Not sure how that will go over. She wants to talk so maybe I see how things are going and if not well I toss it out there. She doesn't really know but I have many attorney friends, basically she can't even get what she is asking for, so if she drags it out she will spend a fortune on attorney fees and end up worse off. I don't want to do that to her, but at this point I have to protect myself. Hopefully things go in a positive direction.
Either way I have been doing great, my GAL has really turned out well and I'm having a really good time. I spend most free nights out with people and have reconected with some old friends. The house is mine, she left and wants no part of it, I'm really enjoying it and gardening. I have done some work on it and she was sort of upset when she saw the changes I made to it, but she won't be here so I keep doing what I'm doing.
It's hard, she is a very attractive women, men blatently hit on her even when she had her ring, we never even came close to an issue prior, but the last year has been down hill and hard. I love her unconditionaly and I'm starting to see that maybe that wasn't reciprocated. It is tough, but tomorrow the sun will rise, I will be alive and who knows what the next day brings.
Keep your chins up everyone, I'm serious, life does move on and there are so many things to be grateful for and be blessed with. This is so cliche but it is truly better to have loved and lost, then to never have loved at all. My M was great, I loved it, but I now see the flaws, my problems and hers. They are fixable, but while you can fix your marriage by your own actions at some point the S does have to either stand with you or apart, not necessarily against but not with. Good luck all!
I lack the time to answer both your questions about marriage encounters vs Retrovaille. But Retro IS geared specifically towards M's in trouble, whereas marriage encounters CAN help those with problems and or, be a "tune up" for those just needing a bit of encouragement, or who like going to these things. I attended an Ind "encounter" that my h later attended alone and then we attended together. It was called "Essential Experience" and it was great. Singles were also there so it wasn't all about couples but every couple there, or every married person (19 of 21, actually) said their M's improved dramatically. Mine sure did. The 2 that were not helped in staying M would IMO, have divorced no matter what. But they divorced with more kindness, if you kwim...
One thing that sticks out is that BOTH people will need to change, not just categorize what they've already done. Contyankee, sometimes you recite over and over how unforgiving your wife is, while also listing your grievances about how she and her family have treated you and your family over the years. You do this so much that you seem unable to see how this looks. You discuss YOUR forgiveness of them and how they no longer anger you....and then you, again, mention or list another grievance...I just think you need to do a lot more of what you are preaching. Sorry for the hijack but I only have access to this internet for another few minutes (just moved and haven''t gotten furniture) so I had to say that. CY, to me, you have moved very little from where you were over a year ago. Yes yes I know you DO some things differently, or say you do. But your outlook about your w and M remain pretty much the same. SHE must change, THEY must stop doing whatever and YOU will keep on praying and getting less and less angry and more and more forgiving...only to revert and start up again with your list. That's why you want the letter about what your wife and family have done to you, so YOU can move forward...??? YOu mean you require an apology from her. But I thought you forgave her? What's with the apology? Don't forget CY, she sees things differently and in her heart, no matter what mistakes SHE thinks SHE made, she ALSO sees mistakes you made that you are not even aware of, or don't want to contemplate. ANd you may also believe that a one time apology from you has "erased" those hurts you inflicted, but I doubt that's the case. I simply think the letter you may want to write (and we did this in my workshop/encounter) is a letter YOU write and read out loud NOT to your spouse, but to a third party, and then LOSE the letter---burn it, rip it up, and LET IT GO....sounds ritualistic but it IS therapeutic. It's a forgiveness exercise and requires NOTHING of the "wrongdoer" b/c as you yourself have said, "forgiveness is for US"....so we can move on and be happy, as God wants us to be.
I'll catch up more when I get my stuff. Good luck and btw, imho Sara, only the self centered type of Ind Counseling can really hurt at this stage. Anything that says it's "pro-M" is unlikely to hurt and more likely to help. Can it realistically do harm? Oh, and btw, in case it applies, Essential Experience is very non-denominational and does not directly mention God at all, to my recall, but discusses "source" the "Universe" etc. For me, it meant God, but for others that had issues with organized religion, they liked it presented the way it was. No religious presssure at all. But a lot about keeping our word and our promises in our lives; "broken agreements make for messy lives" is a favorite quote of it.
Good luck, j-
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
In your reply, you didn't actually reply other then repeat a quote I said. What were you going to say?
CY
Hello CY - I meant to echo your confusion in that you're "wanting" to get your wife along to Retrouvaille but at the same time you've taken your wedding ring off
It just seemed like you're giving her mixed signals IMHO
At this stage, I don't think it matters. She flat out told me she does not want to work on things. I suppose I could put it back on but to her, at least the way she has projected herself to me, it makes no difference.
I guess you didn't read the posts correctly in this stich. When we talked in the past about this months back, I validated everything she said to me and told her I understand why she felt that way and said that.
When I discuss how I felt, she says, "you shouldn't have felt that way." I am sure if I were to say the same thing to her, that would tick her off.
I did forgive her and her family. I think in the past, if she apolgized to me at the moment, it would have been much easier. Marriage is about Love, Sacrifice and Forgiveness.
I have apologized more then one time for gosh sakes. In fact, many times. What makes you think that in 20+ years I apologized one time? Please don't put words in my mouth based on your assumption. My wife only apolgized to me once this past January after she hit me the last time about 5 years prior. Its hard for me to believe that a spouse who is married over 20 years has only apologized one time for their behavior, action or what they have failed to do. No one is that perfect.
I would be fully willing to make changes but the difference is, my wife will not. Prior to our separation, she yelled out, "If you want to make this marriage work, YOU need to do this, that and the other." Notice, she did not need to make any changes what-so-ever.
As far as her family, there is a huge differnce between them and me. I told her that about 2 months ago, I guy I work with have become friends. He busts my chops, and I do the same. One time, I said something to him about how he looks because he works out so much and told him he needs to wear a bra. Well, he got quite offended and told me so. I hurt his feelings. Within 5 minutes I wrote him an e-mail of a 3 sentence apology. I told him I thought I was being funny and it was never my intention to hurt or offend you. My wife said to me that was cruel what I said.
That is what a mature adult says. He takes accountability for his behavior, recognizes it was in poor takes and makes an apology. Why? Because he is a human being and deserves that respect. That is me. I did not state this last paragraph to my wife.
Then I told her that for years, I kept hearing the same story over and over again about bashing the Catholic Faith by her dad for the last 17 years and the brother-in-law. I told them to basically knock it off. For years, I used the words please and was always polite about it. Don't you think I deserve the same respect when my feelings were being hurt? Apparantly they didn't think so and that hurts. Her reply, they were being funny and you can't expect my dad to change. Then I dropped it because she doesn't get it. Now of course J, you will think she is right and that is your preogative. I don't agree with my wife because people can change, not by themselves, but by allowing God to change them.
I am no longer welcome in their homes and I am find with that. Hmm, the family is working hard to repair this marriage right? Quite frankly, I don't care if I am welcome or not. I only care what God thinks of me and to please HIM, not them. They want to hate me, fine. Its their energy not mine. I still pray for them which I have shared this with my confessor and with the nuns at the Carmelite Monastary. They know as much as you do about all this and they have told me that I am a strong person which I do not even recognize. They are proud of me in how far I have come, especially spiritually. I don't see why they say I have great faith.
The question for my wife and her family is, "are they ready to die and face God for their actions?" I am. I'm not afraid at all. How does God see their behavior? So I am praying for their conversion and have left everything in the Hands of God Himself. Since I am also devoted to Mary, His Mother, I have given my wife to her to give to her Son, His Will be done.
I told her that for years, I felt like an Idiot because I was being corrected on everything I said or did. Many times you said that I didn't pull my weight around here (home). I said I don't know what you expect of me because when I help you, you say, that I am doing this wrong so I stopped helping. My wife said "that is because I am a control freak (which I knew). Why would any other human being want to be controlled by another human being? That's no difference then slavery. If she recognizes she is a control freak, then she should know that is a problem for her.
It is a shame that CY is stuck in a unhappy marriage, particularly one where the in-laws feel comfortable ganging up on him. He is willing to go to Retrouvaille and work on the marriage. As I see it, CY is willing to make changes. Has tried to make changes, but is doing it in a vacuum. W will not participate in the process to let him know exactly what changes she wants to see, and how she will adapt too. I don't think he should be criticized here on the board for opening up to us and trusting us with the inner workings of his marriage. Truth is, one person cannot simply do it alone. That is why Retrouvaille and Marriage Encounter require voluntary participation by both spouses. I am praying that his wife will see that their marriage could be improved by spending one weekend talking about it, and will go to Retrouvaille with him. It isn't a big time investment to improve the quality of her life.
Thank you so very much for supporting me on this. It meant alot to me, more then you know. 25years has had some good advice to me in the past which I acknowleged. However, she appears to believe that everything is my fault. Maybe its because she is a woman and will not agree with anything a man says on this topic.
My wife came from a family who believes themselves Self-Righteous in all their actions. Her family is well educated but have no common sense or wisdom. Wisdom comes from the Holy Spirit as Catholics believe. My MIL has a masters in English and grandfather made himself into a millionare. He is a controlling man too.
This past March, my SIL (wife's sister, she has two sisters) stated that her and her husband (husband wasn't there as he was working at the hospital, he is an ER nurse) were having a conversation about the English language and what she repeated has stuck with me. During lunch at the table, She said
"PEOPLE WHO DO NOT HAVE COMMAND OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE, WHEN THEY SPEAK, THEY MAKE THEMSELVES LOOK LIKE AN IDIOT AND THAT IS THE RESPECT THEY DESRVE."
The entire family nodded in agreement. I made no face and gave no answer but was shocked and horrified to say the least. My parents are not educated, but I would never consider to treat them like an Idiot. I don't want to judge them, lest you be judged, but I can judge the action and its terrible to think the way they do. I believe anyone is deserving of respect, no matter who they are. The cleaning people wear I work have a below average IQ. But they come around and are friendly. I would never consider to treat them like an Idiot.
When I die, I don't believe God will judge me on my grammar, rather my actions and behavior or things I failed to to. I would like to know what will happen if they appear before God, and God tells them about this comment and says, "Did you say this?" They will not be able to deny it, but knowing how they behave as I have seen over the years, they will probably try to correct God's grammar too.
Since my daughter was present, I made sure to talk to her that night before putting her bed. I told her "No matter what a person looks like, tall or short, thin or heavy, black or white, smart or not educated, you need to treat everyone with Christian Charity as Jesus would want you to. Do you understand? She said yes daddy. Sara, now 25years will assume I told her this in an aburpt or strong tone. I told my daughter in a calm and loving way.
Well now CY, you have ticked me off. I have posted here for over a year and post a great deal encouraging the many good men here. CY, I have posted to you well over a year now, when your screename was different, etc. (Sara, again, sorry for the hijack) and I have listened to your complaints, along with verycrazy and very few others, for some time. You are stuck. Plain and simple. Doesn't make you all wrong. Nor did I EVER say that. On the contrary, I've said you put up with too much for too long, among other things.
But you aren't actually doing anything to change your sitch. Yes yes you have put it "in God's hands", which you did many months ago. But as I said then, are you sure God does not want you to DO anything else? If you are sure that sitting back and letting things go is the way, ---and it might be!!--then how about just doing that? Let go of her transgressions, or at least stop reciting them b/c it sounds like you have not let go of them if you're still discussing them, even when events are literally years old, and by your words NOW, you are no longer at fault at all for TODAY'S M. Is that accurate?
As for me taking sides with your wife -- you must have amnesia--and worse, because she is female....well, umm, you are flat out wrong and groping for a reason to discredit someone who disagrees with your approach or questions it.
Ask Faithisbelieving, FaithfulH, Emotionalrollercoaster, Was2Sad and a dozen other men on this board how "unfair" I am to men. Then take some time to realize you have oversimplified and inaccurately portrayed my view. Seems to me that when I disagree with you, you distort my words to make me sound extreme. But you are inaccurate and counter-productive. Plus, I never said this was all your fault. You sound silly when you talk like that. Where'd you even come up with that?
I hope your sitch changes. I really do. But I also think life is about making some hard and brave choices. I'm up here in Alaska so I know what I'm talking about. Either let go of your M, or do something for it. That is what I am suggesting. I could be wrong and hey, I'm human. But don't give me the "she takes the female side" poop simply b/c I disagree with your approach. We're above that type of ad homonym attack. This board is all about opinions and I gave mine. Don't attack my motives and then forget the hours and hours I've spent posting to you to encourage you when you were feeling really low. I think you run away from those who challenge you to take the lead in your life.
Like I said before CY, if your life is a novel, who is writing Yours? Do you like where it's going? Is your approach to conflict resolution working well for you? j-
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
CY is in a difficult spot. I am theorizing, and shouldn't speak for him, but this is how I see his situation. His Catholic belief system will not allow him to solve his problem by getting a divorce. He is chained to his W for life unless he either rejects his Catholic beliefs or she divorces him against his will. The third choice, which is what he is trying to accomplish, is for him to get her to work with him to make the marriage bearable. He has found the Retrouvaille program, which has the power to help him, so he deserves credit for making a good effort. And he deserves credit for living with a situation that most people would just walk away from. I would rather you did not criticize him on my thread.
