Moving Forward - slow but sure

[BaseballAnnie]

I always lick the batter.

Pitcher and catcher too, if they're cute...

[RMG77739]

I hope he sees it before it is too late - as it was too late for me when former W ran out of love.

Jeff223,

I am sorry but I do not see things that way. My W did NOT "run out of love." She simply looked around and realized she had gotten everything she perceived she could from me. Then, she bailed.

IF my W EVER really loved me, she would have openly discussed her feelings, gone to counseling and worked on the M. In the end, she only really loved herself.

It may be very similar in your case..........

RMG

[Jeff223]

IF my W EVER really loved me, she would have openly discussed her feelings, gone to counseling and worked on the M. In the end, she only really loved herself.

It may be very similar in your case..........

WOW, I can relate to that. My former W dropped the bomb and walked away with that smug look and confident it was all my fault. Where was our love, her commitment?

But what does it matter their motives? If she lost her love or she just used me, if she blames me and not herself, if she loves only herself, so what? That is her problem, not mine. I cannot control that so why suffer.

I do believe that if I would have extracted my head from my anal cavity sooner it may have made a difference. But like you state so well, if we were used and they are that self centered it may not have made any difference at all.

And to sleep even better: if we were used and they are that self centered they did us a favor walking away.

Thanks for the post.

[RMG77739]

IF my W EVER really loved me, she would have openly discussed her feelings, gone to counseling and worked on the M. In the end, she only really loved herself.

It may be very similar in your case..........

WOW, I can relate to that. My former W dropped the bomb and walked away with that smug look and confident it was all my fault. Where was our love, her commitment?

But what does it matter their motives? If she lost her love or she just used me, if she blames me and not herself, if she loves only herself, so what? That is her problem, not mine. I cannot control that so why suffer.

I do believe that if I would have extracted my head from my anal cavity sooner it may have made a difference. But like you state so well, if we were used and they are that self centered it may not have made any difference at all.

And to sleep even better: if we were used and they are that self centered they did us a favor walking away.

Thanks for the post.

Jeff,

Her love and commitment was right there with my ex-W's..... My WAW went on to spew all sorts of sh!t.... She questioned if we were "really" married..... She said, "Who are you married to? The first person you have sex with?" She went on to pose a bunch of idiotic questions... The FUNNY thing is when they have to ACCEPT this from the next H. Can the next H just pull the same sh!t? Can he just walk away? I know they would be pissed off, hurt and complain about how "evil" men are... Their families would be up in arms instead a giggling about how "bad" exW was. It will be TOTALLY different when they are being defecated upon....

My exW said so many contradictory things.... She said it was long over.... She made her decision the early Summer... Yet, she said it would have been different if I had done things differently in September. WTF?

She will look back and see me for the man I really am - a loving, caring, smart, hard working, compassionate and flawed man with a heart of gold who loved her more than anything on this Earth. I was in a SERIOUS rut before. I am back to being myself finally!

The interesting thing is I have met over a dozen ladies since my D. They all have eventually in some form or another said, “You are the type of the guy most women want to be with. What is wrong with your ex-wife?” I just smile. A few ladies have said it is her loss and some lucky woman's gain... How do you like that?

RMG

[RMG77739]

And to sleep even better: if we were used and they are that self centered they did us a favor walking away.

Jeff,

I wanted to comment on this alone.

It is true I will sleep well knowing I did everything I could once she made me aware of the issues. She chose to just walk away. That will weigh heavily upon her someday. In the back of her mind, I am sure she will wonder if she will finally be on the receiving end.

She will eventually have to deal with breaking her marriage vows to God, breaking her marriage vows to me, committing adultery and hurting someone she allegedly loved.

If I ever get married again, I will be able to stand at that altar knowing I kept my vows last time. When she does it again, if she has not already, she will stand there haunted by the ghosts of what she did and how she disobeyed God's laws.........


RMG

[frank_D]

In FIB's thread you wrote:

Shoot for Maximus. But if you only see compassion in his character you are only seeing a very small part of who he is. Remember the leadership, sense of purpose, focus, self-confidence, and assertiveness that served him well and permitted him to achieve his goals in the end. Compassion yes, but he was not afraid to use the sword when needed; a man with clear non-negotiable unalterable terms.

"leadership, sense of purpose, focus, self-confidence, and assertiveness" do not EXCLUDE compassion, they ENHANCE it. Compassion is not 'recklessness'. It's being closer to 'Human' than it is to 'animal'. It is not a weakness, it's a strength.

Maybe you've heard this quote:

The most Impressive Use of Power, is Restraint

Restraint is born of compassion. Compassion is an exercise of the power of our 'humanity'. When we lose that we aren't even a warrior any more. Just an emotionless machine.

Jeff, your last few posts to FIB, and in response to my suggestions of showing some compassion while maintaining boundaries, seem to be against being compassionate and in favor of the 'sword', tough love, kick her a$$.

It has been puzzling me until I took the time to read your threads and I saw that this is the way you've been handling your relationship with your wife. It wasn't that way in the beginning, you validated, and tried to be supportive but as she went through her emotional cycles you withdrew and did more than detach. You unplugged completely and, to all appearances, you lost any compassion for her.

You're angry. It shows in your more recent posts.

It's hard, I know, to be able to be the 'supportive husband' one day, and then get the venom the next day. But if you read Deida, "The Way of The Superior Man", you'll see that it's all about the way women process their lives through their emotions, while men process through our logical view of life. As such, women NEED us to remain stable WHILE they spew their emotional garbage.

They need to know that no matter what they say or do emotionally, we can still be there for them.

However, when it's gotten to the point where we're here at the DB board, and our marriage is a train wreck, everything is way off balance. THEY have a lot to SPEW, and We have very few chances to be compassionate and supportive. Most of the time we are relegated to detachment and validation.

But, as the anger is vented, SOME will PRESENT us with opportunities to reconnect with them emotionally, to provide them with the support they need, even if for a brief moment. As my counselor told me, eventually those positive moments start to displace the negative memories.

It can happen. It takes time.

I've read your most recent thread. I think the door is not closed and there is a POSSIBILITY for healing. But only if you choose to, and only if you can see how she has progressed in her view of you, and where there were opportunities to make small inroads into healing.

I've selected some specific items in your posts over the past year that if I had been reading your thread, I would have pointed out as opportunities to see her pain and be supportive.

And that's really what it's all about. Them. We know that. It's about their pain, their hopelessness. They tell us that all the time. When WE fail to SEE that, to have enough compassion to DO something when the timing is right, then they will continue to see US as the problem.

That is so hard to do, because we're being spewed at all the time. But it can be done with a balance of 'detachment' and 'compassion'. It's what I did, it's what FIB is doing.
Jeff, I CARE. I have nothing but compassion for you and your wife. I am not here to judge you in any way. I have some observations to share and nothing else.

Sometimes, when we can see a history of our journey laid out in front of us it can give us some insight into what we should do next. So here goes...

Everything I do right now is viewed as controlling; everything. All my positive improvements have been dismissed as not really happening. All my reaching out to her or doing her a favor just means I am still the same old controlling jerk I always was. In fact, she has lived a life where all important decisions were made for her – she could not do them herself. Now, for perhaps the first time in her life – she is getting the D she wants – she and only she will control this situation. How sad – she is hurting herself, our kids, and me in this process to “find” and assert herself. Even going to a lawyer to draft an agreement – she could not do it herself as I predicted.

Translation: I let you take care of everything and you became unreliable. Now I'm scared because I LET YOU control everything.

After she tearfully tells you she needs a divorce, you observe she is a mess. you say

My whole conversation with her, although R oriented, was so different for me. It was as though I was not talking to WAW. It is hard to explain. She pushed so many buttons yet I became only slightly angry – not anywhere like I use to. I felt so sorry for her and I felt so sorry for us and my family. But the pain was minimal – that is good. She was a total mess. I only felt sorrow and pity for her – not the anger, frustration, self-pity, and depression – and that is all very good.

another time...

In case you all get too wrapped up in this alien thing – yes my WAW is an alien but I never saw her so down as I saw her yesterday. As I said to John, she has no choice but to see this through. I really don’t understand that fully but it is fact. She cried – and I felt for her deeply but somehow I could not embrace the alien Devil Girl that has her by the throat. Or is it the Devil himself? But I got a quick look at the girl I fell in love with – that made it hard. I so miss her.

The 'girl I fell in love with' was there. Fear prevented you from at least hugging her.

Several people respond to you for doing so well 'detaching'. You weren't 'lovingly detached'. It was emotional disconnect. You shut down to protect yourself.

My W did call last night to speak to the kids. She was down visiting her mom who has cancer and had just returned. For the past few months she has been brief to me and usually hangs up after talking to the kids. Yesterday she asked S8 to put me on. We talked 20 minutes about her mom. While visiting, her mom had to be taken to the ER – reaction to the chemo treatments they think. It freaked my W out. Says her mom is not doing at all well and they were told tumor was much bigger than first thought. Her mom has basically given up – I found that so surprising b/c her mom is so strong. I felt so helpless; all I could do is listen. W sounded like the person I married – not the alien. It was nice to hear my W again. But she sounded so alone. There was a long pause at the end – I told her to take care of herself – she started to cry and said good night.

She is alone. All you could do was listen. What do you think was holding you back from giving her some unconditional love and support? How do you think she may have felt after being met with silence by the person who says he loves her?

The call sort of confirms for me that my detachment is real – I did not feel the emotions I would have felt just a few months ago. I still love her but all I really felt was sorrow for her. I sensed she needed someone to hold her so badly but I don’t believe that I can be that person any longer. The choice is hers to exclude me from her life. How senseless this all is.

She just chose to INCLUDE you in her life, and she shared her fears and sorrows with you. Again, what held you back?

A few days later, you send her the 'You are free to go' Letter.

I prefer that our marriage work - I see many opportunities and actions we can take. However, I also see that you truly feel divorce is the only possible route you can take. You're right, our marriage is impossible.

So be it - I won't stand in your way - you are free to go.

It is in our mutual best interests to work together as closely as possible - for financial and time considerations. Additionally, our cooperation will create a strong foundation for us to build upon as we focus on being effective and equal co-parents.

Besides the arrogant tone of this note, I wonder about the timing. She is in a bad place with her mother at this point. Why was this necessary at this time?

Since my “you are free to go” email W has been very chatty and nice. She thanked me in two separate emails for letting her take the kids for the holiday weekend to see her folks. Her folks were thrilled and so were the kids. MIL is doing better. W spent a long time on the phone one evening talking about MIL. I just listened. Frankly, I really don’t want to talk to her so I have become a good listener.

Tuesday morning she sent a short email saying she got back okay. But that night she sent me a longer email about her mom and the kids. At the end she just said “I guess I just wanted to say all that”. Interesting; I did not respond.

She invited you into her life. You did not respond.

She is very, very emotional. So sad. She needs help but will not ask me for it. She is lonely. I really do not think she wants to do this but the alien still controls her. Maybe I am reading too much into her communications but she has been different since I “let her go”.

You know she needs help, and you seem to think she needs YOUR help. Because she will not 'ask' you for help, you will not reach out to her in any way, however small.

How about me? I feel great. I am sad for her but I do not feel much else for her – I am only somewhat emotional about the situation, which is good (read my next post). I am detaching nicely. When she was gone I got a new lawyer and yet another chapter of Jeff’s saga will soon begin. More later.

I think one reason why I am at 90% logical detachment is that I do feel a bit self-righteous at times. Demoting WAW in my mind eases my pain and produces a mindset of “I really don’t want her anyway”. The more uncaring she is the more I do not want to be around her. I am tired of being the doormat and the bad guy here. I hate what she has become and HER self-righteous attitude that it is my entire fault. I feel so defeated.

And you shouldn't be a doormat, or accept her view that you are the 'bad guy'.

I was packed and ready to move. W calls today about my moving back and we yelled at each other for 15 minutes and hung up. She called back almost immediately and said she did not want any more calls like that – it constituted harassment.

I was about to hang up and go over there and show her the definition of harassment by moving right in and kicking her out of MY bed. But instead I paused.

I told myself it was about time to follow the advice I dish out to others. Jeff – detach; detach now. So I said, “You are absolutely correct, I think these calls are harassment and I refuse to do them any longer. Is there any chance that we can talk this out so I do not have to move back today?” Very long silence – I thought she hung up. Instead she said okay and we talked for over one hour. She was willing to discuss custody. It was DB in overdrive - I kept my cool, agreed with her, validated her feelings and shared my feelings and it worked. We had the best conversation in many months. At one point she even slipped and called me "honey".

You validated her feelings, shared your feelings and it works. She called you 'honey' because you were re-living a positive pattern. You DID IT! By seeing HER side of this you stopped being 'enemy' and became 'honey' for a brief moment. These are the moments you strive for.

Before we were married, W relied on her father to do many things. My FIL is a great guy and is strong, steady, and secure. He helped her when the going was rough in college, he helped her find a house and move, he helped her buy furniture and her car, he helped do her taxes, he gave her advice. He was her security blanket.

Then I came along and I assumed that role; a role I could not hope to fill long term. I should have known better.

The first half of our marriage was good. But I was expected to lead: I decorated the house, I chose what we ate each night, I picked out her car, I did the finances and the taxes, I fixed the house; she wanted little input on decisions. What color should we paint a room? She would go pick out a dozen paint chips and asked me to decide, and then I was expected to paint.

As time went on I began to resent doing all the work. I desired a real partner – not being a “daddy” to my W.

Same here. My marriage was very similar EXCEPT FIL was not a good dad. I resented her BUT I ALSO DIDN'T REALIZE I HAD ENABLED HER TO BE THIS WAY.

And that I, as the stronger person in the relationship, could help her grow beyond those needs. It wasn't until she left that I learned this.

I told her the D had to go through. We had no choice. I would love to try again but without trust it would never work. I told her this D is a gift – I have done more soul searching as a man then I ever have. I cut back my drinking. I have more one-on-one time with my kids then ever and the kids and I are eating it up. The pressure is off. Yes, we must get this D.

She cried. Then she asked the question many of us have heard before – why did I not change before, why did you wait to change until now; why, why, why? I said b/c I was stupid; so, so stupid. She cried. We went to bed separately.

Great week at home; no really. W and I are getting along fine. We had two fights but once her emotions came out and I agreed and validated we had successful conversations about the kids, custody, and divorce. No, she is not at all reconsidering but she is warming up. I need to establish a cordial relationship for the sake of the kids. We talked past midnight for two nights now. She cannot forgive the past so we will divorce but I have let her go and agree with the path we are on.

Just because she says she isn't reconsidering doesn't mean she isn't. EVERYTHING we say and do is being processed by the WAS. The will continue to keep up their guard and insist there is 'no chance'.

-----------------------------------
If your W came to you and said, "Jeff, let's work this out and stay married" would you be able to put your heart back into it?
-----------------------------------

Honestly? No. The feelings are just about gone. I am even a better Father now – I have that one-on-one time I did not have before. I am ready to move on and meet/sweep her off her feet someone who knows what a true R is all about – for better or worse – and will love me for who I am – faults and all. I know these women exist – I read their posts here every day.

You moved in to the house, and then moved out...

Well – that did not last long. I am back in my apartment.

I am glad to be out. No, we were not throwing things at each other – just the opposite. We were like H and W again (except for the sleeping arrangements). We talked a bunch and she complimented me on many things I thought she had not or refused to notice. She said I was a wonderful dad now and the kids are thrilled. She also asked that I don’t judge her based on how she acted over the summer – the summer was so very hard on her. I was very calm and detached – I love her still but differently. The feelings are almost totally gone. I hate to say it but I imagine I have the same feelings that a WAS has.

The most interesting part was that my W’s lawyer came to see my lawyer and W’s lawyer said nothing but great things about ME! Apparently my W told her lawyer of my changes and also how I am now a “top rate dad” and how much the kids like to be with me. Her lawyer asked W “so you are reconsidering the divorce?” W’s answer was a definite no. But her lawyer told my lawyer he felt the marriage could definitely be saved just from what W has said to him since she retained him.

The opportunities keep showing up.

11/06

But I grew to hate her. Yes hate – for my anger that she let this happen and for her smugness and self-righteous attitude. Hate for my sadness and frustration that she would not try again and for her failure to accept my changes. Hate for my fear of my future and for my kids. Hate for my self-pity that it was my entire fault - how stupid I was. You have to experience those raw emotions and pure hate is as raw as they come.

Then forgiveness finally came – that took the longest. I came to a point of peace with myself. Only sorrow remains – sorrow for things that I cannot prevent: the loss of my best friend, the loss of my lover, the impacts to my children. The sorrow replaced the hate and the sorrow led me to remember the love. I finally realized that she was as hurt as I was - perhaps even more.

I now love her again and always will.

Now that you know she is as hurt as you were, what will you do to help her heal? She can't help herself. You're the only person right now who truly understands where she is at.

I would try again if given the opportunity but she would need to change or it would not work. She would have to bury the past. After years of pain, that would be very, very hard for her to do. Realistically she will not give me that opportunity so it is time to move on. But then again, anything is possible.

Anything IS possible. You both CREATED the past. It would take you both to heal it.

You were always the leader. Do you think it is realistic to believe that SHE will come to you and say "hey, let's heal this and make it all work!" Or, is it more realistic to believe that if YOU start being kind, compassionate and aware of her feelings as you are now, that it is POSSIBLE that she will see that attractive person again?

I saw my W at my son’s basketball game yesterday and I could not even bring myself to talk to her. She was cold. I just wanted her to wrap her arms around me and tell me everything was going to be all right; that Jeff would be coming home for Christmas. Instead, today my little girl told me she asked mommy if daddy was coming home – mommy’s answer was no.

You "wanted HER to wrap HER arms around you...". She isn't going to fix it. That isn't who she is. Anything that happens will happen because YOU manifest it. YOU are the one who creates this life around you. When YOU change everyone around you HAS to change.

No card from her and the gifts were "from the kids". Interesting, she did call the day before Christmas Eve when I had the kids and she said she had more gifts for me and wanted to bring them over then. Why did she buy more? She came with her sister and she was all dressed up. Her sister hugged me real big and we started to talk. The kids went on about the great time they were having. I continued to talk to my SIL when W said "I guess it is time we should be going"; like she could not wait to leave. Even the kids said "you just got here".

She never looked at me once; no eye contact. Why did she come?

To see you. She missed you. Her christmas was being spent without you. Don't you think that feels wrong to her too?

Then you gave her a gift, with a card that said you were praying for the family to be together.
Her response was uncomfortable. You said:

I do read that she still cares or why did she write it. She is hurt and she wants so badly to detach; for me to go away. Gifts and such remind her of the past. She may be questioning things and that is bad from her point of view. She also did not have the kids at Christmas – that must have hurt and of course it is my entire fault. So I feel sad for her.

and in your card, you reminded her that she was destroying the family because of her decisions.

But I also read it as brutal, heartless and incredibly f'ing selfish of her. She doesn't have to wear the stupid things or even say "thanks" since she's clearly incapable of even civility right now...but to outright reject this small token of the past? What a joke....how incredibly rude and callous...and revealing of her character and mindset right now.

BaseballAnnie called you on it, as I would also. You reminded her of how her actions are hurting you and the family, and you let the little boy inside be hurt.

Some time later your mom gets sick. Your wife didn't come for a while. You said:

I am alone here. W is interested but distant. She does not want to get close enough to comfort me in my time of need. I know her for 15 years, she is the mother of my two children, my mom called her the daughter she never had, my wife adored my mom. Now look.

So far, and maybe I'm wrong, but you've rejected her in all the previous months, she's been down and hurt and you've said nothing, kept your distance. You've pretty much shown her that she is unwelcome around you. And as you said "my wife adored my mom". Question: How badly do you think it hurt your wife to 'stay away' because she felt unwelcome?

My W went to see her yesterday and again today. I was surprised but proud of her. I must admit my first reaction was “butt out of my business” and then I saw how hateful that was. She is trying to help as best she can and that is my first conclusion???? Wrong Jeff.

My W finally visited mom Sunday. The first week W only came once for 15 minutes and as I wrote above mom was put out. But W did show Sunday, and then she came each day since. She has talked to the doctors and is now playing the role of concerned daughter-in-law. If W learns something she lets me know.

Her behavior is not affecting me in the least and I am not reading anything into it. I am glad she is involved – I think my mom appreciates it and I do too.

She reached out again.

A few days later you did a long post reinforcing your so called 'detachment' and justifying 'giving up'. Rather than quote it, I'll link to it here Jeffs sad post

W stayed away this week but she said she was sick. She did call me several times and told me to 'send her love' to mom. Mom is still very upset that W is not visiting.

So, the drama continues.

W made an effort but when she gets sick you're dismissive. Why is that?

Because you aren't detached. You're still angry:

Same with W; hearing that you are nothing but worthless crud and a controlling, manipulative jerk that deserves nothing but her hate has also taken its toll. I really cannot take it any longer either. I so wish I never have to see her or talk to her again. Why did she not call me those things early on with the objective of trying to fix us? No, she quit – then kick the guy while she is going out the door.

My 12 year wedding anniversary was last week as well. No acknowledgement of the day. I have known W for almost 1/3 of my life – and no acknowledgement.

I'm not sure if you sent her something to 'ackgnowledge' in this post. However, it's another example of you waiting for her to take action. Yet YOU are the leader in this relationship.

On my 15 year anniversary my W ave me nothing. I gave my W a hand written card thanking her for our children and for the many good times we had. I wished her happiness in her life. She thanked me, cried, and I held her.

You wrote this in regards to a time your W sat next to you and D6 tried to make you hold hands. W 'pulled away' from you.

ISLH - I will try not to be defensive but if someone chooses to act like a bit*h, ignore you on purpose, and try to lure you into argument (which she tried to do at one point) then I call that rude, among other terms.

What I tried to say is that it did not affect me; or, to be very honest, not even close to as much as it would have just months ago. Why? B/c I see her for what she is.

There comes a time when we need to stop apologizing for them. If they cannot treat us decently, sit somewhere else, not next to me. I see too many wonderful people here blame themselves or try to even defend the crass behaviors of their former partners, when in fact they are responsible for how they act, not us.

You're right, she is responsible for how she acts. And you are responsible for being an authority figure, set boundaries, and call her on her behaviors. She is testing you to see if you WILL do this.

Later you said:

As ford points out, if we see the other person for who they really are, and not through the LBS foggy lense, then we can feel correctly. If someone I don't know too well does me wrong, that crosses a boundary, and I react as needed. Why should I feel or act any differently towards my xW? Likewise, treat me well and I will treat you likewise. This too applies to xW.

Because, the person you DON'T KNOW who treats you badly deserves a different reaction than the person who is your childrens mother. The LBS 'lense' doesn't need to be 'foggy'. It can be CLEAR and you can react to her with love and compassion when setting boundaries.

She has problems with eye contact and is very uneasy around me - tells me she is doubting her course but she cannot change it. She is still trying to tell herself her feelings are gone. That is okay. We sat together at my son's ballgame and I was very upbeat and asked her about her life. She went on and on like old times. Never really asked about me - her focus is on her. That is also okay. At one point I moved to sit with my son (he was running the scoreboard since his hand is still in a cast) and she followed there.

How can you be so CLEAR in your understanding of her and still not get it? "She is still trying to tell herself her feelings are gone". Did you say that because you WISH it were true or because you intuitively KNOW it is true?

I believe it IS true. The feelings are NOT gone.

She still desires a D, she has made that clear. But she does not have the fortitude to draft up the agreements. She wants to run away. She just wants me to go away. Or is it that she really does not want the D deep down? I do not believe so; I cannot read her mind so there is doubt but her actions do not support a change in her course. She *needs* the D – she just does not want to deal with the process (even though she has a lawyer). That hurts me.

So I have decided to *push* the legal D. It is what she wants, based on ALL indications and her actions; not what I THINK she MAY be feeling as she deals with her pain and MLC elements. I am still trying to affect the emotional divorce; that is different from the legal one. All I know is to support her now as best I can. Maybe the draft settlement papers will affect her. And she will have to negotiate and process the papers so that may affect her. But I really doubt it. False hope is a poison that I do not want to take again.

I still believe that I would consider trying again if she makes any indication she is willing. But trying again becomes less attractive to me as time passes.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that you haven't been 'trying', you've been waiting for her to try. It seems as though you will only accept her coming to you and saying "I was wrong, let's make it work".

She has been more open lately: telling me about her job when we sat together at the ballgame, thanking me twice for doing the taxes, and now the settlement. Good stuff, but no expectations on my part. It hurts less for me to believe she is totally detached herself rather than looking at this as 'baby steps'.

One interesting thing is that she gained weight. She had really slimmed down when she dropped the bomb but now she has gained it back and more (I had not seen her in a month). I read where ISLH's H gained weight and she took it as a positive sign that his life was in the toilet and that he may be inching home. I took my stbx weight gain the same way: her new rosy life is apparently not so rosy after all. And I smiled, shame on me.

So, time to build that *new* me and treat all this as the opportunity to grow that I did not have in my M. A life based on strength and honor.

Maximus spoke of 'Strength and Honor' when going into battle. When fighting as a Gladiator in the arena.

When he was with his Wife, he spoke of love and compassion. To protect and to cherish his family. That, is what a Warrior does. Find your compassion for your wife. See her pain and be present with her when the opportunities come up.

[WCW]

Hey Jeff, came to say thanks for your thoughts and I responded at my place.
Frank_D has a lot of good points. Kinda tough to come in after this long and redo the last year but moving forward was your thread title right? Forward can still be together. You might have lost your hope, but keep your heart open.

[BaseballAnnie]

Jeff, Frank has given you an incredible gift here.

I cannot possibly add anything to it, other than to say this.

God expects us to reconcile. Not necessarily reconcilliation of our marriages, because that is not always possible, but to work toward reconcilliation and healing of the relationship, working toward restoration of friendship, trust, respect for one another.

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation" (2 Corinthians 5:17-19).

So even if you can't save your marriage at this point, think about these things that Frank has said, with the desire toward reconcilliation with your wife. Not only for the two of you, but most especially for the benefit of your children.

peace,
BA

[Jeff223]

You and I watched different movies.

Thanks for trying to help.

[frank_D]

Annie did a better job of making my point than I did. Thanks Annie.

We watched the same movie. We have a different definition of 'compassion' and 'honor'. With Maximus, training his fellow gladiators was an act of COMPASSION. He could have let them fend for themselves and die one by one. No skin off his teeth. he would have been ok.

In some middle eastern countries, fathers and brothers may kill their daughters/sisters if they feel that they have lost their 'honor' because of their actions.

To me, 'honor' means to step beyond my hurt, hate, anger and need to punish and instead be christ-like and compassionate while still maintaining boundaries. That is 'honorable'.

So, 'honor' comes in many flavors.
What does 'honor' mean to you?

It doesn't matter to me if you and your W are together. It matters to me that you and your W are not continuing to hurt each other. Your kids deserve better.

I'm sorry I didn't follow your journey, I feel like I'm adding too little, too late. I hope that's not true.