The Plank is out of my eyes, but too late for WAW?

[Heimlich]

I tend to ramble, so apologies in advance.

My wife and I met in college. I was 19, she was 18. We talked at a party and then two weeks later met at an on-campus concert, sat together, talked for hours after, and became inseparable. We must've put in a year's worth of dating in 5 weeks (the joys of on campus living, eh?). At any rate, we were young, but very much a good couple. We talked, we always enjoyed doing things together, did the little things for each other, etc. All the relationship stuff you're supposed to do, in many ways we did intuitively from the beginning (not that we didn't each make mistakes) and kept doing until about 4 years ago.

So much for preamble. Skipping ahead to the worst night of my life last October. My wife told me she had an affair (began as an EA in May of last year on a business trip) with a co-worker. And, the nice touch, she volunteered that she initiated it and that they had sex in our bed. I was crushed. Numbed. Humiliated. Angry (more on the anger below). I knew of the friendship with this guy. However, silly me, I trusted my wife and was happy that she had a friend. After all, I have female friends and it would've been a little hypocritcal to be jealous. Plus, I thought she loved me. Our relationship had had a few dips, but had seemed to be improving in spring/summer last year. In reality, it was blowback from her affair.

To my regret, I snapped and assaulted her. Not hitting her, but I was going to have sex with her whether she wanted to or not -- in the back of my mind I think I wanted to make her feel as worthless as I felt at that time (not my best moment). Fortunately, I came to my senses (I think I literally went crazy for about a minute) and went downstairs. I remember walking back to the stairs leading to our bedroom and looking at the front door. I decided that I'd be happier with her than without her, a decision that hasn't changed.

So, much to my surprise, I realized that I love her still and want to stay with her. We talked alot that night and actually ended up having sex, which I still don't understand. The first time was like a dog marking his territory. The second was, on my part, out of love and wanting to show her that (one problem, I've tended to equate sex with emotional intimacy over the years). So, we talked, said things like, "we've been drifting apart" and "this may bring us closer together." W ended the A the next morning. Showed me the email to and from OM.

OK. So now we're trying to put this back together. She has always been resistant to reading or getting help online. I thought counceling would push us further apart, I had a bad experience earlier. I bought one of the books by the Gottmans and read some things online, but we really just tried to act "as if" things were OK. And, for a while, they did seem to improve. We paid more attention to each other, laughed more, we've always done things as a family (day trips, museums, picnics) and we kept doing that, after a few weeks, we began a normal sex life. However, looking back, I was an idiot. Intellectually, I knew that I had a role in how the marriage ended up. I made all of the correct sounds with my mouth about accepting responsibility, but never felt it. I also pushed sex as a way to reconnect emotionally, which was the exact opposite of what my wife wanted (and, really, what I want). She always felt pressured and I wanted to schedule so that she wouldn't feel pressure. I brought up the A, "if you could schedule sex with OM, why not with me?" Stupid thing to say as I type that now.

In January, we had a good talk. I told her I felt like she was holding back from becoming "us" again. She agreed and really broke down for the first time, "I don't want to lose you. I wish I could turn back time." From that time until the end of April, I thought we were putting our marriage back together. I had started to take more responsibility/initiative around the house. We bought a piece of furniture in March and we continued to do things as a couple and as a family and have fun doing it. I then go away for a week for work in April. When I returned, she was very standoffish. I got back on a Friday. On Sunday, I got the ILYBNILWY talk. She had said she felt great when I was gone. No pressure. My wife says something once, and means it. I, as you can tell, like to go on at length. Sometimes too long. I was a little clingy and unsure around her since she told me of the A, until just after we bought the piece of furniture together. That's when I began to feel good about us again, but started back into bad habits. I admit to being shocked and actually begging, very briefly and immediately apologized as being unfair to her, for her to stay. We tried councelling, but our counceller basically just reinforced my wife's feelings without ever getting to why she felt that way.

OK, so in late May/early June, I drove home to LA to help my brother move into an apt (car accident, partially paralyzed) and stay with him while he got used to living alone. Basically, a trial separation. The whole time, I'm reading (DB, among others) and trying to figure out how SHE could do this to US. As I was driving back, I had a St Paul "Road to Damascus" moment. It suddenly clicked about how my actions had led to the way she felt. My heart was always in the right place, but I had been selfish. When we met, i was very confident. In the 3 or 4 years before the A, I had become less confident -- work wasn't going great, I had gotten fat, our sex life wasn't like it used to be, I felt trapped. I drank too much and too often and spent more time playing computer games or PS2 than being with her. I work at home. She would come home after doing errands during her lunch hour and I would be playing a game rather than getting dinner ready or getting my crap out of the sink. I would drink if she refused sex or not drink whiskey, but something else, if we were going to be intimate later. That made her feel manipulated and used. I realized that for years she had taken all of the initiative with the girls and getting things done around the house. We had also disconnected emotionally. I don't know who started first, but we had each built walls. We attempted to bring them down, but just seemed to miss each other. In short, she had the A partly because I wasn't giving her what she needed. When we tried to reconnect, I remained the same person and the same behaviors. Waiting for her to change while ignoring what I needed to do to make both myself and her happy. I realized that I had been blaming her for everything and she felt that. and, in pushing sex, I was pushing her away. While I'm proud of finally figuring this stuff out on my own, I wish to God that she had just opened up her mouth and told me directly how she felt. She avoids conflict and that's one of the reasons why we drifted apart. I got tired of trying to get her to talk to me and her clamming up. But, again, when I look at it now. In some ways, I was browbeating her and not respecting how she communicates (and vice versa on her part).

So, here we are. I've been in LA for 3 weeks again after one week at home so that our girls can spend time with my parents (driving them to her parents tomorrow, home on Saturday). We'll have a week together and then she flies down for 10 days. (We do this every year. I just usually look forward to spending the time alone, we've ALWAYS enjoyed each other's company during that time alone, even last summer while the A was going on).

My W has noticed me trying to make changes, she mentioned that to our C in May, but has said, "too little, too late." Over the past 5 weeks, I've finally been able to distance myself. No relationship talks. Minimal email and phone contact. She's noticed that I'm losing weight (almost 20 pounds since the end of April). We still have a good time when we do things together. We can laugh and talk without arguing. There does seem to be an undercurrent of anger on her part though. She told me that I had scarred her. I had read DB back in the fall, but didn't really implement anything (after all, it was her fault, right?). I'm conflicted about what to do now. I feel like we're finally being honest with each other about our feelings. Me: I love her and have treated her somewhat poorly over the past few years (knowing that we have had more good times than bad and that I didn't intend to hurt her). W: We're done. I'd like to try for a year to see if things can change. That's all I've asked her for when I was in MD 3 weeks ago, a little time so that you can see the changes in me are real. She almost agreed, but backed off (she asked how long and I said Christmas). Yes, I know that's contradictory to DR, but I hadn't read it yet

It's just. . . . . AIIIIEEEEEE! What do you do? On some levels, it seems like she's unsure. She wants us both to file for D. I've asked, and she's agreed, to not contact a lawyer yet and to try to do this through mediation (neither one of us wants to beat up on the other -- joint custody, 50/50 split of assets, etc.) She's so stubborn I'm worried that if I back off too much she'll think I'm getting used to the idea of letting her go (and I have told her I can and that I don't want a promise from her that we WILL be OK, just that we'll make the effort.) Ack. I've gotta stop and get back to work. Any thoughts appreciated. Felt good to get this off my chest and out of my head though.

[Nomopo]

Hello H! Sorry I am just finding your thread now. I started to read it, but have to walk out of work now. Meeting the kiddos at the pizza joint, and we're going to the circus tonight! I wanted to give you a bump up to the top. And I will check in later tonight or this weekend. Also, I hoep traffic picks up on your thread soon. Don't get too discouraged. A lot of good people here are stretched pretty thin. There seem to be 3 -4 new people every day! It is sad.

Talk to you later!
Nomo

PS - I dated a woman in college from Fredrickburg (I think), MD. Close to you?

[delia]

Hi Heimlich--

I think that there are good things in your situation--although I wouldn't expect you to agree! First off, your wife informed you of her affair of her own free will; evidently, you hadn't even suspected anything. She must not have been comfortable with what she was doing. To freely confess: not many do, I think.

Therefore, she's an honest person and a good person--and apparently a very stubborn person! I think that you must be careful not to appear to pressure her--to push, beg, or to use obvious manipulation.

Another good thing about your situation is your own honesty in taking responsibility for the role you may have played in undermining the marriage. You're quite blunt about it, really.

What puzzles me is why things took a turn for the worse after a period of improvement. Do you have any ideas about this? Did you notice your W's anger at the time of the affair?

I guess that your main job right now is to keep proving to your wife that you have changed, and that your changes are neither too little or too late. You prove that by your actions. Be prepared for this to take a long time. Be patient.

Best wishes!!

I think that others will soon chime in with advice and encouragement. Many people who were once where you are are making good progress--but slowly. Just remember that this takes time.

[Matt-14]

Heimlich,
I feel for you and what you are going through. Hang in there and keep up with the changes. She seems a little indecisive right now, which is good.
Germantown, MD it sounds familiar ....considering I drive I-270 everyday to Bethesda for work. I work at the National Institutes of Health.

I'll write more later...keep up the good work.

Matt

[Heimlich]

Thanks Delia, Matt, and Nomo

Just got in from the drive from Louisiana. Lake Charles to Bush (across the lake from New Orleans) to drop the girls off at the W's parents (who also wish we could work things out, so that's a plus) yesterday. Then on the road at 8 (eastern) and pulled in front of my house at 10:30. The reason for this intro? A NEW personal drive time best -- 1060 miles, 14:30 hours (14:03 of drive time)!!! Woo hoo. I've been trying to break 15 hours on this trip for 10 years. It's the little things that keep me going.

Nomo: Frederick is about 20 miles north of here. Fredericksburg is 50 miles south of DC in VA. Not sure of any colleges in Frederick, so must've been Fredericksburg. The name of the college there escapes me, it's been awhile since an antiquing/civil war battlefield jaunt in that direction.

Matt, Thanks and watch out for those damn deer at NIST. True story. Bought a new Saturn just over 9 years ago. Driving it home from the dealership. Turn off of exit 15, hit a deer, which flops on my hood, placing a huge dent in it. My W was following me and didn't see it. I pull up in front of our house, didn't even turn off the car. There's $)%&)*#$ deer hair stuck on the hood of my first ever brand new vehicle (a Saturn, but still). Turned around and brought it back to the dealership. $500 deductible before I ever park the damn thing at home.

Anyway, to the matter at hand, Delia. Looking back, she gave me plenty of hints about how she was feeling, but I had my head up my a$$ (both before the A and then the recent backsliding after what I thought was a period of improvement). I've seen the term alien on the board to refer to WAW. In the two to three years leading up to the A, I was borderline depressed. Drank too much, didn't pay a lot of attention to her (at least, not like I used to), got even fatter, not happy at work. Looking back, while we did have a lot of really good times, I wasn't a great partner and an alien to myself. I didn't really like what I had turned into. She took the initiative on about 90% of the things around the house. I was a willing accomplice, but she did get tired of it. The twist here is that she was good at that stuff, so I had stepped back and did a lot of the day-to-day stuff with the kids (baths, feeding, diapers, etc.). As they got older, I never transitioned over to helping out with everything else. In some sense, I hadn't really grown up (which is an idea I've been chewing over on the drive up today. One good thing about long drives alone.) I've also realized that while I felt that I wanted to be emotionally close to her, I had withdrawn. I had always been the strong one in the relationship and didn't want to be seen as weak or burden her. I can see it now, a year ago at this time it was just part of the general sense of "drifting apart." Also, while it was never my intent, some of the ways I've acted regarding sex led her to see herself as a "piece of meat" (her words).

The problem with the honesty is that it's recent. Four weeks ago, I mentally gave myself the gift of honesty with myself for my birthday. I had my moment of clarity 4 weeks and a day ago. I'm terrified that it's too late. I've also felt like my old self again, for about 2 months now, for the first time in years. And that old self is a good self. The problem is, I've been in LA for 6 of the past 7 weeks (3 weeks each sandwiched around a week back home). The two weeks prior to the first trip down, I was strung out on pregnozone, which I had to take to cure poison ivy I got while taking the girls for a walk in the woods. That stuff made me nuts. I'd be telling myself to shut up and just keep on babbling about our R, which just drove her away.

Delia, she is a good person -- fun, funny, caring, sensitive, smart, a good mother and lover. I can see myself growing old with her. I keep replaying a very emotional conversation we had in mid-Jan. I told her that she was still keeping me at arms length and that I didn't want to live like that and was thinking of leaving. I didn't want to, but there was a wall. She broke down and apologized, really apologized (only the second time she did it). Said that she wished she could turn back the clock. Was sorry for hurting me. Didn't want to lose me. All of the stuff I really wanted to hear. So, my dumb a$$, thinking I'm God's gift to my W, doesn't really change my behavior. Underneath, I still blamed her, pushed sex too much, remained clingy and unconfident, kept eating not great and drinking more often than I should have (less than before, but still too much). I also picked back up on playing PC games and Xbox. Booze and games were two ways in which I ignored her and made her feel unimportant to me (again, a recent revelation to me). Rereading that, it sounds worse than it was. We were spending more time together and having a good time, but I hadn't changed, in any real way, my behavior.

She's said two sortof contradictory things about the months of Jan -- April in the last few weeks.
1. I never really felt connected or in love during that time. [I don't think she ever mentally committed to us. Lingering feelings for the co-worker, my continued bad habits -- not a good combo). Still, unless she's a better actress than I ever suspected, there were plenty of times when we both let our guards down, in and out of bed, where we connected. I was just too insecure to really keep positive momentum going.]
2. After that conversation, I was really ready to be a couple again.

I think the second is true and I wish I had said some version of the following: Thank you for telling me what I needed to hear. I know that was hard for you and I didn't realize how ashamed you felt about what happened. I haven't been myself for years, and I can see how my actions led you to feel the way you felt. I'm sorry too. You're the most important person in my life and I took you for granted. I'll never do that again. I'll also start changing, now, and become the man that you married, only better.

There's more that I rehearsed on the drive up, but I'm gassed.

She was asleep when I got home, in one of our girl's beds. I was expecting that we would sleep apart, but still hurt that she had already done so. I just touched her briefly on the arm to let her know I was home and that it was good to see her. I think we're going to talk tomorrow. Her mind, from everything that I know, is set on divorce. That we can't fix this.

I'm thinking of telling her the things I wish I had said tomorrow (and these are things I just realized, so it's new information, not a rehash of previous conversations). All I want is time to show her that I'm the old me again, but better, and that I can treat her the way I used to and really want to -- gifts, really being partners in our lives, dates alone, flowers, etc. Any thoughts on how to ask for that time without appearing to be begging? Just asking, in a firm, but gentle voice, strikes me as the way to go, but . . . .

On a different note, anyone have any thoughts about who should move out if it comes to that? I hate the idea of moving out because it's her D at this time and I don't want my girls to think I'm leaving them? Is that selfish? My MIL thinks I should be the one to leave because the "girls need their mother" and "it's the man thing to do." WTF, they damn well need me too.

OK, enough with the novel. Jeez, you wouldn't think I make my living as an editor would you?

BD

[Matt-14]

Heimlich,
I know about the deer at NIST.
I live in Frederick. I was at my company picnic today in Germantown which made me think of you.
I told my W the same thing last summer or fall that I wasn't happy with the way things were. I didn't get much of a response or change though. Now I know why.
I hope you W gives your relationship time to change. Good luck on your conversation tomorrow. I think even if she files, it takes time to happen so still work on improving you. You never know what could happen. Never say Never.

As far as separating...in my sitch:
If we separate I will be the one leaving. I think the kids need to be with their mother and she does take care of them. I will be around a lot though. I will even let her stay in the house for a while with the kids. If this happens, I can not remove my kids from their house and friends, it would be too tough on them.

Matt

[Heimlich]

Ug. We had the talk and it was as expected, she's done and is planning on calling an attorney tomorrow. She's at least open to the possibility of mediation rather than an attorney, so financially this may not be too awful. Plus, since neither of us is out to hurt the other, that should go smoothly. Man, I can't believe I just had to type that.

I told her how I feel. I'm sorry for making you feel unimportant. That my heart was always in the right place, but I couldn't consistently translate my feelings into actions -- especially over the past 4 years as I kind of lost myself and really withdrew from her. I acknowledged to her that her feelings are valid and that I am responsible, in a big way, for where we are today and for how she feels and that she doesn't have to apologize. I did ask for a little time to show her that the changes I'm making are real. That I'd like for us to really be a couple, a partnership, and to do that I need to change, but that the changes are for me first. She said that she's tired of trying. That she is a nurturer (which she is, and she has made me a better man) and that she's tired of trying. For the first time in a while, I opened up to her and said that I know that you've tried to help me for years, but that I locked you out. She feels like I'm holding her back because I haven't changed. I acknowledged that she has developed a lot of self-confidence in the past few years (low self-esteem for years) and that part of the reason I didn't open up to her as I lost myself is that I was alwyas the strong one and didn't want to burden her.

The thing is, I've only just realized how much I've hurt her. I told her that she doesn't have any reason to trust me, but that I feel like I am changing. She sees me becoming a little more like I used to be, but sees it as manipulation. She's also complained for about two years that her hands hurt, her kneck gets stiff, and a few other aches and pains. When I'm gone, she says she's fine. When she starts thinking about me coming home, she said her hands started hurting again last Tuesday. She says that physically, she just can't give me time. She doesn't trust me and that I'm changing for show. She was afraid of how I would react. That she was scared of me. That hurt. I told her that, since the night she told me of the A, I haven't been angry with her at all. Frustrated, but not angry and that I would never hurt her.

While I'm sad, I'm not surprised. I was almost certain this conversation was going to happen. I was just hoping that she would agree to give me a litle time. After all, as I told her, we can always divorce. She's gone to a pottery shop for awhile. I asked if she wanted to be alone and she said yes, so I didn't push. I did tell her throughout the conversation that I have realized that she is the most important in my life and that I really do understand how I acted made her feel the way she feels. She did admit that she could have spoken up at times rather than avoiding conflict, but that the way I've responded to her over the years made her feel stupid. I'm still trying to grasp that one. I can be opinionated, but I never thought that she was stupid. She said I made her feel like she was never good enough or smart enough. I told her I never felt that way. Ever.

I have no idea how to handle the separation conversations we are going to have. I don't want to leave. I don't want to be a part-time parent. I want to be with her. I know I need to let go and act as-if, and I'll be able to, but, damn, THIS SUCKS. Especially since I was the one, in many ways, that got us here.

We're still friends, and there's a lot of love for each other. She just says that she's always tense when I'm around. Time to really start being myself with her again and showing her that I'm a man worthy of being with. As everyone says, time and patience.

Going to get a little work out in the home gym now. Not really GALing, but it does make me feel better.

[Sara]

Heimlich,

I will admit it. I have a double standard. When the marriage has no children, I empathize with the hurting partner, but I don't really think it matters that much if the marriage continues or doesn't. On the other hand, when the couple has children, this whole self-indulgent, "I deserve to be happy and I'm not happy with you" stuff makes me angry. Marriage with children is not a whim, it is a responsibility and a commitment.

That said, I think you should not insist that your wife give you time to convince her that you love her. It would be nice if that happened, but you owe your kids more than that. I think you should insist that she make a good faith last effort to fix your broken marriage. And yes, there is a way to do it. I have done it myself with the help of retrouvaille.org.

Retrouvaille begins with a weekend of learning to communicate CONSTRUCTIVELY. It is a skill that is taught. Then there are follow-up sessions for 6 weekends. There is homework. You need to do the entire program, and do the homework, and use the disciplined techniques for this to work. But I promise it works.

And I've heard all the excuses. If you want to save your marriage go to http://www.retrouvaille.org and book a weekend.

And by the way, I'm from Mandeville, LA, but moved to Florida right before Hurricane Katrina destroyed the roof of my house.

Oh, and who should move out? The bad guy moves out. If you want to be the bad guy, move out.

[Heimlich]

Sara,

Are you saying that you felt the same way in your M as my W and that Retrouvaille helped you turn it around? If so, how did you make the decision to go? My W is convinced that my efforts are just for show and that she can never be happy with me. That she is too "scarred" from the way I treated her. At the same time, she admitted that she could have opened up to me a little more than she did, so she knows there's fault on her side too.

I don't know how to convince her to do something like the retrouvaille stuff. I'm open and willing, and actually looked at it before. She's not. I have told her that she had every right to be unhappy, but that I've realized how poorly I treated her -- without help from her. And, now, that we're finally being honest with each other, that now is the time for a final effort. She just keeps saying that it's too late and that it's over. She's had enough.

Man, Mandeville to FL, out of the frying pan into the fire. Good luck this hurricane season

BD

[Sara]

No, my sitch was different. My husband was having the affair. Maybe he is more down to earth than some. He was angry about the ways that I had treated him in the past. He said that he just wanted to be in a relationship where he was appreciated. If it was with me, that would be better than with another woman, since we have 3 children. But he was insistent that he be appreciated. I don't remember him insisting on love. But love did grow again for both of us. At least I think it did. My husband is not a very demonstrative person. So maybe I am putting words in his mouth.