Stillme's Chapters Continue Some More

[stillme]

So, 16 days to kill a thread, huh? That's gotta be some kind of record. Here's the next installment of my sitch, a link to the prior one(Stillme's Chapters Continue): http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1070715&page=2&nt=8&fpart=1

and a repeat of the BRIEF Recap:

IDLY Bomb: end/Oct.'06
D Bomb: end/Nov.'06
H was to move out Jan.07, but Dbing begun 1/5/07 &
H stayed in home (as friendly roommate w/occasional benefits).
In mid-March '07, b/c of disagreement/control issues re: my getting a FT legal sec'y job (H's want) vs. (my pref) pursuing Pilates instructor career, I told H he needed to move out & he left that wkend (moving into an apt across the street).
Since that time, H has been consistently angry & ugly, or avoids/ignores me (with a FEW minor breaks for 'nice' interactions).
H's anger is financially-based.
To date No D Papers have been filed

**************************************************************

Still Dim, and doing well w/it for the most part, tho it is scary. Had the thought this eve that this (non-interaction) might make it easy for H to fully w/draw from me/M & (finally!) take whatever steps he's been preparing for these past 6 mo. but hadn't been ready (for whatever reason) to implment. Quickly Stop-Signed the thought, tho, reminded myself he can & will do whatever he wants, and remembered some journaling & stuff.

Thanks, all, for following my sitch and the advice & support you've given (priceless!) and welcome to anyone new.

Last night we had a funeral for Ruby. D found her quite dead in her box and became inconsolable. Who knew she was so attached to a hermit crab?! I'm sure there were alot of other reasons she was so upset, sobbng that it was "all her fault", and she should have played w/it more before she didn't have the chance any more, and that maybe she's not responsible enough to hve a pet. My poor baby. I sat w/her on my lap for a while, drying her tears and letting her cry (and NOT saying the "It was only a crab, J." that was my initial thought), and then we buried Ruby in the dirt off the bck patio, marked her grave w/the colored seashells from her box, and D said a sweet prayer asking God to take care of Ruby for her now.

This morning I went to the jiu jitsu tournament at S's (& H's) studio at 9am. H called at 8:30 saying he had run out of space on the camcorder dvd - the one I gave him maybe 10 days ago - and would I bring another. He met me at the doorway of the studio & that's the only interaction I had w/him for 2+hrs. S sparred really very well. He's getting more aggressive w/it - Probably a combo of his age, experience, enjoyment w/it overall, but def. competition-fueled as well, and maybe a bit of the sitch thrown in, too. I chatted w/alot of the moms(a/o friends) as well as the (new & chatty) dad. At one point I was heading to the restroom & had to walk the narrow space between the mat (where sparring was going on) & people sitting on the floor against the wall. Just as I made a teasing comment to a dad/friend & stepping over his legs [Oh, and he was sitting 2 people down from H] & I looking back over my shoulder at him (dad/friend) the next guy moved his feet & I stepped on his toes - threw me off balance & he caught me w/2 hands at my waist (this is the guy on the other side of H) & I realized that the 2 mat-combatants had suddenly rolled to exactly where I was (That ws why guy moved his feet). They were in danger of rolling off the mat, and the ref [NJ cop friend/instructor] was trying to block their roll & stay out of their way - and we were all in the same small square of space at the same time. It only took seconds, but - gee - what weird timing. The guy who had held my waist (I don't know his name, but I know he & H are jj buddies) lifted his 2 hands away palms up & said some thing funny (can't remember what!) & action resumed. LoL. I didn't look at H once during the whole thing.

Both D & S had new gifts from H & happily showed them off to me. D has a (her 2nd!) Juicy Couture purse (and for those not in on trendy women's fashions, let me just say I don't own - and cannot justify - a Juicy purse!) and S has a Nintendo DX or DS or whatever. (These both from the same H who told me that washing my own damm dishes would help him not stress about our financial sitch. ) When S showed me how the thing worked - Okay, I don't enjoy these type things myself and am totally ignorant about them [and happy to remain so] generally, but when he showed me the Chat Room capabilities & couldn't give me an answer I understood about who exactly he could/would be chatting w/, I walked all the way across the room to ask my friend (her S had been trying to answer my ques. as well, but not being very clear either) - even tho H was standing not 6 ft away w/some other guys watching a match. After I got an answer from friend & her H & rejoined S, chatty-dad tells me "I just asked your hubby, and he said...". Doesn't mean much, and I probably just wasted a bunch of time & energy typing this, but it went along w/my being Dim and not going to H to initiate convo, w/the added bonus of H realizing as well that I didn't go to him w/my question.

Stayed at tournament until noon. (H sparred, tho purposely didn't move from my chair & couldn't see him.) Soon before he left, H made a few casual comments to me about the kids (don't remember what now), asked if I had "major plans" for this eve as he would probbly have to go in to work for a little while (asking w/o actually ASKING if I was avail. to watch the kids) & I said that I could take the kids w/me if I ended up going out, told the kids to "Go kiss your mama" just b/f he left w/them & that was that.

I went out w/friend [+ her friend as well] & had a great lunch, lots of talk (only some about my sitch), laughing, fun & plans to do it often. Afterwards I went to the mall & spent alot of time trying to find a sundress for the party tomorrow. Shopped & talked on my cell w/friend back in TX most of the time. At home I heated leftovers for supper, did some (Pilates) computer work & then got a call from H asking if he could bring the kids by for a few hrs. They were here from 7:00 to just after 9pm, and I FELL ASLEEP for an HOUR holding D as they watched Disney Channel! Woke up w/i the min. b/f H knocked on the door to take them back. Don't even remember what he said, but it wasn't rude or ugly: Oh, except when D was testing/fussing & saying "I don't want to go. I want to stay here." & holding/burying her face in my lap, H said (teasingly & probably not meant ugly) "You just don't want to leave your t.v. show." I just told her "Give me a kiss & find your shoes." told her I'd call ehr tomorrow (She had told me that H wasn't "letting" them go to church w/me b/c it was F'Day) &, as she did, H was saying how he might have to work some eve Mon/Tues ("his" nights) - intimating that he may need me to watch the kids again - again w/o actually using a question mark. I just said "okay" & let it go. (That's when I had the scary-thought about DIM making it easy for H to walk to The End now.)

After church in the morning, I'm going to friend A's afternoon dinner party (lots of her family plus misc friends).

And that's my day.
So, basically, status quo some more - which is surely better than the Ugly that was 2 wks ago.

[Gone Dancin']

stillme,

I've been working hard to catch up on your sitch since I last posted a few weeks ago -- your threads certainly do move fast, don't they ! I was sad to see more of the same from your H in terms of his ugliness (but like some have said, couldn't help but occasionally laugh at his transparency!). I know you're concerned about going dim the way you have, but have you taken a gut check and looked at whether or not this is a cheeseless tunnel? Is it better than the old tactics or not and why?

Gonna stay up-to-date with you now -- stay strong and motivated!

Nick

[stillme]

Thanks, Nick, and welcome to my world. lol

Going Dim as a Cheeless Tunnel? I hadn't considered that, but certainly there was no cheese in the interactions H & I were having for the weeks prior to Dim starting last week. W/the easing of the Ugliness by, well, quitting most of the interaction/words btwn us, I (and probably H as well) am able to breathe & not live so emotionally (My detaching was taking huge hits during that time). Now, instead of H throwing darts or outright spew and me being (mostly, lol) calm & detached (which actually may have made him even MORE apt to spew - Did you ever try ot argue w/someone who refused to engage? Makes you nuts, huh?) we are pretty much even-ing out emotionally; I'm better able to SHOW the Better Me/180's & focus on me; and H may (or may not --?) feel eased as well.

Even so, I just remembered that H took just an extra moment to catch my eye as he stood in the doorway before leaving jj this morning (I rarely look him fully in the face & only make min. eye contact) & say "I'll see you [or was it 'talk to you'?] later." He did the same thing only it was just a eye-catch thing when he left this eve.

So, my conclusion is that Dim is working for me (us) - for now. Thanks for checking in w/me - and LOVE the new name btw - tho I was a bit confused for a little while !

[sunshine74]

Stillme:
Just a question for you, I was wondering if you regret asking H to move out??? If so Why?? If not why??

Thanks,
Sunshine74

[SunnySeason]

Well Still,

Just typed out such a nice post, only to pull a Nomo & lose it all.

I'll try & recreate it & then push submit immed. next time.

Sorry to hear about Ruby, you handled it well w/ D, & we all know it's relative when it comes to loss. A loss is a loss is a loss, no?

I'll get right to it since I've forgotten the small talk now that I added to prior post.

Going Dim is once again not for the faint of heart (none of this is, really). It looks like it's having an effect & your H doesn't seem to be the type to show you outwardly if you're right on or not. There is almost always a panic when I've done the same & it has to be altered by sitch. You're not being hostile, or dropping your PMA (as shown by the oops incident at the gym), just changing things a bit, so it's more of an untra-light really. I was told years ago by a therapist friend, that negative actions require energy, just as people say/do things in anger, etc., and your H filing would require a push of some sort. You're not giving him any aminition, just stepping back, so it's my guess that it's different & will get a different response in time. He's a toughy, so might take a while. If you really do feel in danger of going in the wrong direction, then by all means change course. I just don't see that & think you're proceeding well.

L&L,
Sunny

[ItsKat]

Hey, still.

I would say that dim is working for you. If nothing else, at least you are not going on that emotional roller coaster that you have to ride when you encounter all of that spew. We don't know the exact effect it is having on H, but if it is making you feel stronger, then I say stick with it.

[stillme]

Hmm, tricky question - & at least not one that has a def. yes or no answer. Let me put it this way:

Short answer: No. I believe S was the only avenue H would have to look realistically at our sitch/M/R - to see Life as it would be post-D, to consider if that Life was Worth It [all the Stuff that "It" encompasses regarding a D]. He had made the comment twice (in about 2 mo. time) to the effect that a S was the only thing he could think of that MIGHT help us at that point. How - WHY - would I even THINK to deny him or control what he did?! S was what H had decided he needed/wanted for his life. Furthermore, he had most likely started looking forward to it in his mind as "Oh, THEN I'll be happy..."

And, oh, before I forget, I didn't "ask" H to move out; I TOLD him to. I DO regret that TELLING (control).

What I wish hadn't happened is that (Did you read my sitch back in Feb./March?) I had had a DBCoaching session in March & explained that, while H was still (tho casually & matter-of-factly) talking about D-stuff (Was I gonna date older or younger guys? Asking me to think about what I wanted [furniture/household stuff] etc) he was - at the same time! - FINALLY fulfilling my QT (Quality Time) LL (Love Language) (Did you read the 5LL yet?) I was SO confused but was still, then, LISTENING to him more than watching for his actions/inactions. (Believe NOTHING they say & only Half they do) &, if I'd have reciprocated HIS LL at that time (PA) it MIGHT have had a VERY positive effect. As it was, we followed the classic path and, when we started arguing (often & around the kids) about the financial/control/job issues, our R deteriorated rapidly and that's when/why I TOLD HIM to move out. I don't see that we could have or woudl have resolved those financial/control/job issues even if he'd continued to live in the houes (short of me doing all & whatever he wanted - which I still do not believe to be in either MY best interest or that of my children). He had (shortly before the financial fighting) re-started sleeping on the couch, and I really believe he was at a Pushing-Away stage that nothing I did would have changed, and probably his focused anger on the financial/job issues was as much to reinforce his leaving me/M than anything else.

So, not a simple answer; and certainly not one that translates into anyone else's sitch very well. We each have to do what we think is best - to S or not - w/the circumstances, issues & people who are involved. My best advice would be to ask a DB Coach if you are unsure. The $ is not insubstantial, but I consider it more of the "anything" I am willing to do to try my best to save my R/M w/my H.

[stillme]

Hi, Sunny & Kat! Boy, everyone's a night owl tonight! I'm already for bed - even AFTER my 8pm nap! So, after this I'm gone til morning. . .

You're not being hostile, or dropping your PMA (as shown by the oops incident at the gym), just changing things a bit, so it's more of an untra-light really.

LOVE this - Low-Cal Dim, huh? ; Less fights, fewer confrontations.

I was told years ago by a therapist friend, that negative actions require energy, just as people say/do things in anger, etc., and your H filing would require a push of some sort.

Yeah, makes perfect sense. I've had MONTHS to go to a L, but chose the wk(s) of H's spewing to actually make the appt(Thank goodness I was calmer when the day came.) H has had LOTS of 'push-able' times in the past 6 mo., but has not done it yet. There's got to be a reason Why - whether he acknowledges it, or acknowledges the true reson, or not.

I'm following your thread, too; will check in tomorrow, 'kay?
Night. (is there a big yawn-y smiley face?) j.

[Nomopo]

Sleep is for weaklings Still!

[stillme]

Nomopo: "Sleep! Sleep? I don't need no stinkin' sleep!"

LOL. Make yourself ta'home & talk amongst yourselves. I'm off.


Oh, LOOK! There IS a tired face!

[Gone Dancin']

Agreed Nomopo!

[Gone Dancin']

Stillme,

My apologies for the name confusion -- I'm sure my new post name will take some time for all to digest and become familiar with!

Nick

[C_K]

j

You are handling things well and have a good understanding of your sitch.
Its pretty confusing for all of us at times and we all have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight so best not to worry about oportunities lost, there will be new ones.

Dave

[stillme]

Thanks, Dave.
Agreed.

And the name-thing? Let's just say I'm easily-confused at times.

Oh, hey, Sunny (and Nomo), I FINALLY got your name! I should be ashamed (but am not) that I had to give my friends yest. the phone-number clue and they, o/c, imm. started singing the name part. I confess, the ONLY part of that dang song that would come to my brain was the "I got it [I GOT it] I got your number on the wa--ll"(and it was making me crazy, thank you very much ). This type thing was so common, I used to joke w/H that trivia stuff (including people's names - and NOT just acquaintances! - movie details oh, like the title or the actors in it & pretty much anything but a vague idea of the storyline, heck even (8 yrs later) the name of the last lawfirm I worked at -- used to go into some abyss in my brain, never to be seen from again. But ask me where a piece of paper is? Want me to quote the specifics of a particular case/client from 8yrs ago? You got it. Weird.

Obviously rambling this morning. Got a full 8hrs sleep (yay, me!) on top of that 1hr nap last eve even! so I'm feeling pretty good.

Have a sticky sitting on my keyboard to remind me to call my (estranged for many yrs, but reconciling the R post-Bomb) dad later this morn. & plan a visit for me/kids for the next wk or so. He & mom live about 2 1/2 hrs away, on a boat at a marina (which I'm not even gonna think about regarding the 2 active kids) but it's the thing to do now.

I hope all you dads have a happy Fathers Day. You ARE great dads no matter what your marital sitch & no matter even if you can spend time w/your kids on this particular day. You are great & loving & strong - & demonstrating some wonderful qualities in a man, a father, & a H. Peace, today, and always. j.

[L21959]

Still --

If you get a chance, I'm looking for some advice on a looming financial convo with H... would love your help!

L

[Nomopo]

Hi!

[stillme]

So I think we went 10 days w/o a Talk. *sigh* H just did another "Can I talk to you outside?". The 'high' points:

H started off by asking YET AGAIN, "I've got the names of 2 or 3 Mediators & need to know if you'll meet w/them, or if we have to get L's." w/my same response - altho he did repeat it to me, too. Same talk about 'business' and how I cannot see sitting down & AGREEING to things w/someone who thinks & feels aobut me & what I "deserve" as he does. He said sev. times "I'm trying here, J." or "I'm trying the best way I can." kept trying to start a division-of-stuff discussion and, after I'd put that off sev. times & he persisted (kept tyrying diff angles) asked if he'd seen a L (He was obviously working off some Buddy-Advice). He said he didn't need to "spent a couple grand to learn what I already know", and asked "Why? Have you?" I said "Yes" (non-confrontational). He seemed really surprised but quickly hid it. Also wanted to know WHO I saw "So I don't call the same one." I said, "You won't. You don't know the name of it." (not wanting to even give away tht it was a woman for some reason)

He brought up that he thinks I still think the D won't happen. I said "I know it will. If you want it, it will happen & I took my knuckes & 'wrote' on the garage wall, saying the words "I KNOW". Exclamation point. He said "Okay."

He says has it all figured out, and knows what it would take to do the D, and we don't need to pay a L to get involved. (He said, "I want the house, and I'll take all the debt that goes w/it." and "We know what the child support is, right?" (referring, prob. to the on-line chart based on salary/# of kids tho it's adjustable as well) says the only debt I will take is whatever is on the cc in my name ("Whatever you've run up in the last few months." b/c it was rarely used before.) (He never mentioned alimony, but said (referring to kid-sharing), that he would alternate years: One year having them 182 days, and the next year 183 days. - Obviously trying for that 50/50 & Alimony is Null thing, but wrong.) I kept saying, "J, talk to a L."

He said "So you're okay w/being served, then?" (w/L's - scare tactic he thinks) & I said, "That's how it's done." He siad "Not if you don't contest it & we go down to file it together." I said (and part of this is new for our Talks) "I will not do this WITH you, J. I will NEVER file for D myself, and I will not say this is a JOINT agreement. D is your decision, and you have every right to make it, but it's not one I agree w/, want for my life, or think is warranted for our situation. I would pay as much money as L's would charge, and then some, to re-create a Happily-Ever-After M w/you." H: "What's that mean?" Me: "There is alot that can be done to fix what went wrong w/us, and give us a wonderfully loving & respectful M. I want that kind of M -" H: "With who? Me?!" Me: "Yes. I want that kind of M for me, and I want it for you, too." H: "Well, that's not going to happen." and I think this is where he tried to get it back to L's & money. . .and after a pause, he said something like "Well, I guess it has to be L's then." and I gave a tiny little disappointed squish of my mouth, turned & went thru the door into the house.

So, it was a talk; but (yay!) it wasn't ugly. A reality check, if you will.

[ItsKat]

Once again you handled a really difficult talk beautifully. Stillme is my hero!

And just because you might need it: ((((stillme))))

[Nomopo]

More later, but you handled it beautifully.

[JustDontKnow]

Sorry to hear about your H's attitude and plans, you handled it fantastically j! I'll keep you in my prayers as you continue to do your part to reconcile your marriage.

Take care,
-JDK

[SunnySeason]

((((Still))))

I would say, "Why WAS's feel the need to kick in the gut is beyond me!" But reflecting on when I was a WAW, this doesn't surprise me at all. I just wasn't quite as cruel as many of them on here. Remember, I didn't mean what I was saying, so keep that in mind.

You handled that so well!!

You might want to read my post today after my WAS gave me a little too much Alien Spew & I decided to give him a bit of his own medicine. It's one of those, "Don't try this at home", as It'Kat says.

Thinking of you & sending lots of positive thoughts your way.

L&L,
Sunny

[L21959]

((Stillme))

Just pulled a SUnny and lost this post, so let's try again...

You are one strong woman; that was real grace under fire...

And you were not late in replying to me on me thread; good points that i will digest and get back for some further input later today. H et al don't return until late tonight, so think it will be a day or so before this takes place...

Just wanted you to know i'm thinking of you...i especially liked what you said to your H about D and your thoughts of M with him. I feel the same way...guess that's a convo for another day...

L

[stillme]

Thanks for the hug-thought Kat. Detaching, tho, is a beautiful thing. Wish it could be bottled. I could be an addict.

And thanks for the prayers, JDK! They are always a good thing. My list (including you) is getting so long, I'm afraid I fall asleep before I get to the end of all my invisible friends here that I want to lift up in prayer every night. (And maybe you &/or others will find this helpful. My Pastor yesterday gave this website out as a very good men's daily devotional site (tho, o/c, good for women as well): josh.org It's on my list of things to check out as well.

H went outside ot mow the lawn. At one point he must have stopped very near D's room and, tho I heard the rumble of his voice, I made no attempt to quiet D or try to listen in as D & I were sitting on the floor underneath her (closed) window playing the 12 Dancing Princess Game. More detaching, I guess; or not snooping? Whatever - wouldn't have prolly disclosed anything I didn't already know or would care to know.

When he finished & came to D's doorway, he was casual & friendly. (lol), asked if I had any plans for the day ("Not until 6:00.") & did I mind if he went to the gym for an hour or so & left the kids w/me. ("No, that's fine.") Prompted D to tell me what they did yest. & when he said "None of her clothes fit." explaining why he felt the need to buy her 2 bags of clothes (She had already told me this. The girl does love her shopping! lol), I said "Well, none of the clothes SHE CHOOSES TO WEAR fit b/c they are last-year's clothes. If she would wear any of the drawer-full or closet-full of clothes for this year, they wouldn't be too tight or too short. Huh, D?" H obviously didn't know this. I said, "You can buy her clothes, of course, but she's reaalllly picky [pinching D, who squeals] lately and will not wear shorts, will not wear capris; only wants her fav 2 skirts & a couple of tops." [more growls & poking at D; H is smiling now]. Then I repeated that I'd told D I wouldn't buy her anything else and was gonna hide away all her last-year's stuff & she could either find something else to wear or go - and she interrupts w/ "butt nekkid?!" & I pretended outrage at her word-choice ('potty' words are suddenly cool w/her but she - mostly - uses them to get me to play-fuss w/her). He says that that's a good idea, & he's very relaxed & smiling.

Then H said (not asked, tho, again) something about copying pics [from my computer] onto adisc so he can make [his own family - prolly w/o me] albums - Ouch! but only a tiny one cuz Detaching still firmly in place). We talked about that a bit, and he offered (again, like a good friend would) to bring back a thumb-drive to copy the pics from S's computer (when mine was crashed) cuz it doesn't have a copy-to-disc capabilities.

We'll see what version of H comes back this afternoon.

[stillme]

Dang time-zone things...Sunny, just saw your post slip inbetween the others! Thanks! more later.
j

[Nomopo]

Thanks for all the updates still. Great stuff. Good journaling, and you're handling it perfectly. I believe your H is likely the hardest nut to crack (except for those nuts that simply won't crack, cause I think yours will eventually - really).

*sigh* H just did another "Can I talk to you outside?".

Hey, is it positive or negative that he brings it up? Why does he bring it up? He can't be too far gone IMHO. He is not doing what someone who really has moved on and made up his mind would do, which is just file and serve the damn thing and decide on his own about the Ls vs mediators, and all the other details.

He siad "Not if you don't contest it & we go down to file it together." I said (and part of this is new for our Talks) "I will not do this WITH you, J. I will NEVER file for D myself, and I will not say this is a JOINT agreement. D is your decision, and you have every right to make it, but it's not one I agree w/, want for my life, or think is warranted for our situation. I would pay as much money as L's would charge, and then some, to re-create a Happily-Ever-After M w/you." H: "What's that mean?" Me: "There is alot that can be done to fix what went wrong w/us, and give us a wonderfully loving & respectful M. I want that kind of M -" H: "With who? Me?!" Me: "Yes. I want that kind of M for me, and I want it for you, too." H: "Well, that's not going to happen." and I think this is where he tried to get it back to L's & money. . .and after a pause, he said something like "Well, I guess it has to be L's then." and I gave a tiny little disappointed squish of my mouth, turned & went thru the door into the house.

I am so glad you got this in, and it sounds perfect. As ugly as things have been, I'm glad you made these points in a non-ugly R talk. Of course, expect the predictable push/ugly stuff at some point (hopefully not), so you're prepared.

OBVIOUSLY YOU'RE NOT HERE YET, but I have to wonder what he would do if one time you said, "Fine. Go with the Ls. Let's divide the assets right now, let's do it! You want a D, you got it." Personally, I think he might cave.

Hugs,
Nomopo

[stillme]

Originally Posted By: stillme
*sigh* H just did another "Can I talk to you outside?".

Hey, is it positive or negative that he brings it up? Why does he bring it up? He can't be too far gone IMHO. He is not doing what someone who really has moved on and made up his mind would do, which is just file and serve the damn thing and decide on his own about the Ls vs mediators, and all the other details.

It's positive that he brings it up. But it's negative in that (yeah, assuming, but I DO know how the man thinks) he only (or mostly) offers the choice so that, if agree that Mediation is the better way to go b/c it's an implied that I will "work w/him" (ie., consider that HE knows how do D best), feels pretty darn confident that his D-Plan will be acknowledged by all (He STILL thinks a Mediator will "tell me" how it SHOULD be) and, if I throw any kinks in it (by, say, arguing that alimony IS warranted; or that a 50/50 custody split is not reasonable, really possible, nor legally done - at least in FL - anymore), the Ugliness will then be MY fault. I cannot win here, and i know it.

hy does he bring it up? He wants - probably NEEDS this to be a Joint thing b/c of the kids (how he's perceived now, but esp later when they are older & can understand who "did" it), b/c of family/friends (same thing - appearance is very important to him; and, really, he IS [was] a basically Good Guy); he wants/needs to feel like he hasn't "ruined" my life. If I make this or any decision W/him, that burden is lifted from his shoulders. No doubt there's alot of the feelings/thoughts that I have/had thru this and the idea of D'ing thru a "sit down together" Mediation rather than an ugly L/fighting in Court thing helps to ease those feelings: sadness for the failed R/M, guilt, anxiousness, fear etc.

Finally, if we had even $10K cash in the bank, I positively know that he would have taken some of it to a L already & started the process. H is so financially, I don't know, "responsible"?? that he cannot/willnot/does not WANT to go into debt for this D. (And, if he hasn't seen a L, he doesn't even know the worst of it I'm afraid.) Since there is no savings, and since I don't have the steady or higher income (yet), he will (maybe knows this) most likely be asked by me to pay MY L fees as well. OMG! This is something he cannot get around in his head.

On a more pos. note: It's true, I believe, that he has not "really moved on" in his head. But I think the main thing holding him back is the $$, not any feelings or thoughts about me or our M. He's showing signs of getting back into life (gym sev times that I know if; doing jj tournaments, if not actual classes b/c of his knee; helping to coach the boy's jj classes; even went out w/the guy to the sports bar 3? wks ago to watch a UFC fiht), but still puts most of his efforts (aside from his time-demanding job) into the kids. He does not Act "gone" in his head or his heart (OW/suddenly getting a night life or whatever), but that's not to say he's not planning & looking orward to it. (I do remember he told me soon after the D-bomb: [in tears w/real anguish] "Sometimes I wished I COULD just DO something so that you'd realize how much I'm gone & you'd have no hope for us anymore." I have NEVER asked a "Is there someone else?" question, but it was in the 'I haven't felt loved in such a long time' context of the convos.

It's all so sad - and you're right. He is a hard nut.

Thanks for the input & support everyone. It sure does mean alot. I'm off soon to teach a session. Will check in later.

[Nomopo]

Finally, if we had even $10K cash in the bank, I positively know that he would have taken some 10K of it to a L already & started the process. H is so financially, I don't know, "responsible"?? that he cannot/willnot/does not WANT to go into debt for this D. (And, if he hasn't seen a L, he doesn't even know the worst of it I'm afraid.) Since there is no savings, and since I don't have the steady or higher income (yet), he will (maybe knows this) most likely be asked by me to pay MY L fees as well. OMG! This is something he cannot get around in his head.

That is very hard for me to relate to, that his sole motivation here (in not making the D happen) is saving some money.

On a more pos. note: It's true, I believe, that he has not "really moved on" in his head. But I think the main thing holding him back is the $$, not any feelings or thoughts about me or our M.

You may be right, but I just can't see it that way. And in any event, I surely hope not.

Hang in there kid,
Nomopo

[Gone Dancin']

stillme,

I agree with Nomopo in that H's not filing can't all be about the money, and I think that you see this too -- it very well could be about all of the other factors you mentioned too: not being the bad guy to friends, family, the kids, etc., and not feeling guilty about ruining your life. There may be other reasons that haven't been realized yet, but these all seem like a probable combination.

Great job during your convo with H when you mentioned why you wouldn't file with him -- super great work in the clutch! I wish I could think so clearly on my feet like that! You are an inspiration!

I'll get back to you on my thread soon regarding your post about my unfiling...

GD

[L21959]

Still (and Nomopo) --

You said to me once that I was married to your H...ditto!! My H has said he thinks we should take care of all this by ourselves, and then just get a lawyer to file it for us (and H is getting "help" from his 'friend/OW' who is an attorney going through her own divorce!!)

But for my H, it all kind of fits in with his IMHO fairly naive 'plan' of how this will all work. When he was in major spew mode during the blowup over me staying in the house, he said, "You'll get your mediator...since everything's going to be a negotiation...i'll probably get stuck with all that debt from Ireland" (and i'm sure he will, given our relative incomes, his larger 401K, etc, and the whole equitable division of assets business...WTF?? What state is he living in?? Methinks the state of denial!!)

I think you both have a point here...

Originally Posted By: stillme
Finally, if we had even $10K cash in the bank, I positively know that he would have taken some 10K of it to a L already & started the process. H is so financially, I don't know, "responsible"?? that he cannot/willnot/does not WANT to go into debt for this D. (And, if he hasn't seen a L, he doesn't even know the worst of it I'm afraid.) Since there is no savings, and since I don't have the steady or higher income (yet), he will (maybe knows this) most likely be asked by me to pay MY L fees as well. OMG! This is something he cannot get around in his head.


That is very hard for me to relate to, that his sole motivation here (in not making the D happen) is saving some money.

(Okay, so I have some work to do on figuring out the 'quote-within-a-quote' thingy)

It may not be the real, deep-down reason...his actions seem to indicate to me some real "convincing himself that he's right" behavior... but I can certainly imagine that that's what he thinks in the moment is the reason, since he's such a 'responsible money' guy...

Okay, i'm off to work on a response/further questions to your post on my thread...Nomopo, come play at my house soon!

L

[Nomopo]

There may be other reasons that haven't been realized yet, but these all seem like a probable combination.

Nick, I assume you mean realized by still's H, right? That's how I took it and that is what I think.

Nomopo

PS - L, see you soon!

[SuperDad]

Stillme,
Ditto to everything said. $$ is the excuse, not the reason. I am convinced that a MLCer/WAS has one overriding motivator
the desire to remain in the coccoon of denial

This means-
* avoid decisive actions which will clearly show that they are responsible for any of this.
* try to manipulate the sitch to cause you to become ugly. This of course shows that they are not really the one to blame (in their reality anyway)
* use any excuse possible to justify what they are doing, other than to admit that they are delusional.

I am convinced that this is what your H is doing and I know it is what my W is doing, even if sub-consiously. He (and she) are so damned scared to give it another try because they are convinced that the sitch will go back to the way it was pre-bomb when they were so unhappy with their lives.

You prolly (LOL) know this already, but sometimes reinforcement helps!

(((Stillme)))

SD

[SunnySeason]

Yep,

I agree w/ SD. "The Money" is just a prop. Just read this in a book I p/u by John Grey ('Men are from Mars' guy);

"Rationalizing can cover up our feelings of remorse that allow us to self-correct. We may do something that hurts others, but by rationalizing we deny our soul's desire to be compassionate. We say to ourselves, "There was no other way to get what I needed," or "I shouldn't feel bad, I wasn't responsible."

My bet is that sooner or later Still, your H will have to surface out of his rationalizations. You're doing an excellent job of allowing him to get there by stepping to the side.

L,

Sunny

[C_K]

Good point SD

I needed to read that today.

Dave

[stillme]

From SD. . .even if sub-consiously. He (and she) are so damned scared to give it another try because they are convinced that the sitch will go back to the way it was pre-bomb when they were so unhappy with their lives.

YES!!! Very well put, and exactly whta I think and - interestingly - even what H has SAID on more than 1 occasion -- that he doesn't TRUST me w/his heart anymore; he's AFRAID to try again b/c he's CAN'T go thru this again; he hurt for too long & too bad to think about even the POSSIBILITY of being there again.

Yeah, I know the money issues are the (very strong btw) props supporting H's anger - which (anger), not only is a powerful distraction & allows H's mind/heart to stay off thoughts of [anything else regarding me/M/R] but which, H believes, will carry him smoothly along to D-island w/the least amount of stress to himself.

Sunny, one of the things I've recently started praying at night is that God help me to get out of His way - regarding H and my R w/H - so your comment about 'excellent job of allowing him [H] to get there [to the surface] by stepping to the side' hit quite close. Thanks. I'm trying.

Thanks, all, for your words & wisdom.

[Nomopo]

Very enlightening exchange for all us these past few posts. Thanks for that!

Still, I'm sorry to say that what is happening between you and H seems unique to me from other sitch's I am following. There are other unique sitchs too, but your's just really strikes me as being in a class of its own. I don't mean that it is more far gone or difficult, necessarily, but that the dynamic is different. The good news is you are a unique DB'er, in a class all your own, so if anyone can handle it, it's you! And you, Queen Mother of the Universe (did I get that right?) are doing mahvelous!

[cliffy]

Still,
just wanted to check back in. It seems you are moving in a good direction of stepping out of the way adn letting H come to terms with things in his own mind.
I agree with Sunny in her excellent analogy.

[stillme]

SD, I just have to say I LOVE! your "cocoon of denial" reference. It keeps echoing in my head as soooo true and (lol) a wonderful word-picture for our WAS's.

And the rest of what you posted is awsome, too. I've re-read it sev. times and am repeating it here in color to run back to when (not if) I need reminding. Thank you so very much.

a MLCer/WAS has one overriding motivator
the desire to remain in the coccoon of denial

This means-
* avoid decisive actions which will clearly show that they are responsible for any of this.
* try to manipulate the sitch to cause you to become ugly. This of course shows that they are not really the one to blame (in their reality anyway)
* use any excuse possible to justify what they are doing, other than to admit that they are delusional.

[cliffy]

I cut and paste the cocoon of denial excerpt into my journal, great stuff. Lots of great energy and thoughts coming out of the great state of FL lately!

[stillme]

There was lots of lightening in the air earlier.

[stillme]

Ok, back on the GALing & Focusing-on-Me train!

Am teaching a class this morning, then lunch w/my British friend. Have a list of sev. places to propose Pilates classes in town, and 1-2 follow-up calls on that as well. Kids are still w/H (back tomorrow morn.), so today's a good day to get some concentrated computer-work done (ebay anyone?).

Friend A met me at the gym last night after my private session and we went for dinner, meeting her co-worker/friend there. Where do these people come from, and WHY have I never heard these stories before? Co-worker/friend has been D's from her H for over a year (and they were only M'd about 1yr) and has recently been dating him again & he has moved into her house. WTH?! How is this so common, yet I've never heard it before? It's like this is The Secret (lol)!

Anyway, hope y'all are doing well today. Gather up your PMA and make it a good one!

[confuseddude]

stillme,

Common? I'm with you, I have rarely heard of it. I know my XW said to me at bomb time "People can always remarry but I don't see that happening". I'm assuming XW meant that it's possible but you'll never change so it probably won't happen. I don;t plan on getting serious with anyone anytime soon and that is key if there is going to be a chance. I wonder what brought them back together?

[stillme]

We didn't really spend very much time on Sitch talk (neither mine, nor hers ), but she made a gen'l statement about H realizing after they were D'd/apart their R had more Good than Bad, and that he wanted his life w/her (again).

In our cases (DBing Fools that we are!) bringing them back (no matter how long post-Bomb or whatever) HAS to be more of the give them space, be the best US we can be, continue the for-ever changes of 180's, GALing, PMA - all the while leaving the door open (a crack at least), and letting the WAS come to the realization that they were (or at least COULD BE!) wrong all on their own.

[confuseddude]

yep...or at least realize that they played a role in it too and that the changes we made are permanent. I know my XW has not seen me waiver. I have been the same positive, upbeat person post D as I was pre-D.

[Gone Dancin']

Right on Cincy! This is what they need to see -- hope that now the dust is beginning to settle, she will see you a little more clearly for the new you!

GD

[Gone Dancin']

Nomopo,

Quote:
There may be other reasons that haven't been realized yet, but these all seem like a probable combination.


Nick, I assume you mean realized by still's H, right? That's how I took it and that is what I think.

I guess I meant by both of them, but it makes more sense that H might not even know yet.

GD

[Nomopo]

Whew! Good thing I was awake. This almost fell topage 6.

[stillme]

Are you kidding me?! pg 6! Thanks for catching me b/f I fell.

Okay, a bit of journaling a weirdly-NICE phone convo w/H last eve. Course there was an ulterior motive: He wanted sympathy. (Men, huh?) H: **cough, cough** Do we have a family physician?*cough* Me: Why? Do you mean for the kids, or you? (Yeah, playing a little stupid here. ) H: For me. I’ve got to get something for this cough. (I swear he did not cough once when he was here either yest. morn or a'noon. This must be a cse of Sudden-Onset Horrible Sickness.) So I look up the phone number, give it to him along w/the name/number of the kids’ ped., tell him where the office is located (all, btw, written down & provided him w/"his" files when he moved out in March). . . And he keeps talking. . . Do I know if they have urgent care hours. (Uh, it’s close to 7pm & he’s hardly “urgent” but I don’t say anything) . . . He describes his headaches & sinus pain . . . I’m making a few sympathetic noises and . . . HE KEEPS TALKING! . . .Then he gets beeped, says he has to take it but “I’ll call you back, okay?” Me.: “Uh, okay.” And, w/i a min., he’s calling back. Says that was [someone or other, apparently an expert on deadly coughing diseases] & H has “a virus” and there’s nothing to be done for it now. . .And he keeps talking! . . .Hopes it gets better b/c he’s flying out on Wed., won't be back til Sun. [tho he never did say where he was flying to]. I’m doing not much more than the occasional “uh, huh” (tho, lol, w/a Ques.Mark at the end sometimes), & then I said, in response to his concern about flying & not feeling well, “Well, I hope you’re feeling better tomorrow.” (& as a, lol, Are we gonna talk about your cough all night?!) and he says “Thanks. I appreciate it.” Uh – HUH?

Think it had anything to do w/the fact that I let him in my house, on my computer, while I was out to lunch w/a friend yest. afternoon? (Yeah, WTH I thought. If he wants to snoop to see where I've 'been', he knows how & I’ll never figure out if he did.) Maybe he saw my desk calendar w/all the P.sessions & the $$ I made written next to each. ?? Who knows. (I journaled last nigth: Maybe he’ll be nice tomorrow. Maybe he won’t.)

This morning he brings to the kids to the door as planned, stayed on the stoop hugging D, makes min. eye contact w/me, asks "Okay, is there anything I [should have - or - for me]?" (prolly mail or something, I'm not sure what really) I said, "Umm, no." & he said "I'll see you on Sunday, then."

Weird, esp. in view of our latest Talk. But, oh well. Off to start a(nother) Busy Day. Cheers, all!

[sunshine74]

WOW still I think your H is is ready for his academy award now...lol Wow that was a great bit of acting to get your attention there. He wanted sympathy in the worst way! You nailed that one. Sounds like he was pretty pissed when he did get the sympathy he was looking for (min eye contact next day)...He probably telling the kids you could care less if he lives or dies...

Proud of you still for holding your ground

Sunshine74

[Nomopo]

Good post! Who knows???

[stillme]

Actually, Sunshine, I didnt get that he was pizzed at all. O/C my choice how i 'take' it, but I choose to take it in a not-bad way.

He called me
Pos1: He already had the dr # etc. Maybe he truly forgot I'd given it to him not 2 mo ago. Maybe not.
Pos2:Instead of being business-like: "Thank you very much. See ya. Bye" click. He talked. Stayed on the p hone when he surely didnt have to.
Pos3: Talked about his feelings. Uh, sure, they were his feelings OF BEING SICK, but, lol, I'll take it. Seriously, he was telling me How He Was Doing (We haven't had a How Are You convo - on either side - since Jan.)
Pos4: Even after being given an 'out' to end the call (getting beeped), he said he'd call back, and he did.
Pos5: W/only my "uh-huh" to go on, he kept talking. About himself, yeah. To gain my sympathy? maybe. Something else/more? who knows. He did it.
Pos6: When I wished him well, he THANKED me. And it wasn't a business-like Thank You (as has happened on occasion).
Pos7: The fact that he didn't make serious/normal or (as our norm has been ) UGLY eye contact can only be a pos. Was he embarrassed? Thinking I was gonna, gasp!, Have False Hope? Unsure how to be around me? Who knows. But nothing about it was pissing or ugly.

Maybe the story came across wrong. Again, l ack of smiley faces? But I didn't hold my ground (neg) so much as act the caring, respectful friend he can turn to.

And, PS - He would never tell the kids I didn't care if he lived or died. Besides the fact that he knows that's not true cuz I've told him I still love him, he wouldn't subject his (our!) kids to being in the middle like that.

[ItsKat]

I like all the positives you found. Sounding good, Still!

[SunnySeason]

Morning Still,

Just as I was replying to your post, I happened to look at the time & I was almost an hr late in taking S(4) to school!! Yikes!

What catch's me is this sentence; "Do we have a family physician". As in, WE & Family in the same sentence! This is a change in tone from him.

Along w/the tone & manner in the rest of the convo, it's a step towards something more positive.

Was it b/c he sees that you're not only busy, but making $$$ & taking the pressure off him? We don't know. I think it was good for him to see that tho.

At least in my case, when my H has come closer at all, it's immed. followed by a distancing behavior. Now that I know that & expect it, it's easier to let go & not take personally. I don't have to tell you that tho, I think you're the one that clued me in after all.

Have to p/u S....
Sunny

[Nomopo]

it's immed. followed by a distancing behavior.

Yep, most likely. But we all know it won't mean a d*mn thing!

[stillme]

So, just to journal yest. C session where I updated her on (1) H's response to my offer re: financial stress; (2) H's newly-implemented kid phone-calls to me when they are w/him (starting w/jj tourn. wkend in GA) plus his reaction to what C had discussed w/kids last wk (re kids missing me/crying); (3) Briefly, my consultation w/L; (4) The Talk H initiated recently (New: H sugg. filing for D 'together', & [in resp to some of his obvious "buddy-advice"] that he should see a L & told him that I had done so, & that I would love to rebuild a loving & respectful M w/him); and (5) H's attitude/actions since then [mostly friendly, including the "Dr." ph.call].

Obviously, I spent (again) the better part of the session TALKING. She pointed out a few things from those events, mostly discussed here (lol), and The Obvious. Whether financially-based or otherwise, H has still not been able to File. Means. . . Who knows.

Her suggestions: (1) Would it be poss. to ask H for a hug b/f a trip? -- Uh, no. How 'bout simple touches, casual or otherwise? Maybe, tho he seems to avoid being w/i a few feet of me mostly. Will try (again). (2) Do more of the same, to keep emotions under control (his mostly) and, if his spewing/anger isn't brought under control & he continues it on a more-often-than-not basis, to set a boundary. Ask him to talk in the garage (as he does w/me) & say if he cannot be civil or nice towards me or around me (leaving the kids out of it for now), then I would ask that he not be around me. He has every right to his feelings, but I have every right to find it unacceptable behavior. - Maybe. We'll see what's up when he returns next wk. (3) What would happen if I had a male-friend showing interest in me (Nomo, where you at?). She said he most likely would be angry and I actually said (to my C, lol) "No, duh. He's angry about everything." lol Anyway, then said that, since H feels the only thing that was good about our M was his trust regarding me/men, that this might give him Reason or Push to convince himself I'm (a) moving on despite what I've said; (b) done the Unfaithful thing, giving him his final Out of the M. So, we agreed it's a fine line, but will consider it. Perhaps after he's filed. . .? (She did stress to find someone who would be/will remain A FRIEND. Again, no, duh.)

Oh, I also told her about VCR-guy & the guy in grocery store who complimented me on my dress, friend A's (35-yr old) guy friend who wants to meet me. . .But I'm SO not "there" & STILL don't have my M-blinders off, & we both lol'd about that. She complimented me about my sense of self, my P.success & confidence & self-awareness. Thanks, all, here, and Michele/DB for helping me find myself again.

Gotta run & start the day. P.class, errands etc., then both kids are going to sep. sleepovers tonight so I will be by myself. Friend A said to call her & we might do something fun. Hmmm. Define "fun". . .!

Cheers for now!

[SuperDad]

Stillme,
I think the C is learning from you now! I sometimes feel the same way with my C.

RE: Dating/having companionship of the opposite sex. This is obviously a double edged sword. As interesting as it might be to see our S's response to this, I agree with you that it would be a bad idea to do it just for this reason. When/if you are REALLY ready to move on, then go for it. If this causes your H to realize what he is losing, you can decide then if you want to give him another chance. On the other hand, if he does not care, then you can move on.

BTW, Nomo and I are going to have some sort of competition this evening to decide who will court you first!

SD

[stillme]

oooo, I LOVE that word "court"!

[Nomopo]

Uh, I am here, dying a slow, painful, tortured death. How bout I send some flowers your way. For H to see, of course.

Thanks for journaling. Good session.

As interesting as it might be to see our S's response to this, I agree with you that it would be a bad idea to do it just for this reason.

It also wouldn't be fair to all us other guys! There are enough broken hearts in the world right now.

BTW, Nomo and I are going to have some sort of competition this evening to decide who will court you first!

And as for competing for still's affections, aren't we pretty much doing that all the time anyway? But if you had somne specific event in mind (jousting?), I might not be able to muster my best effort today. I almost threw up going to get my laptop.

Nomo

[about2bdvorced]

If I'm not mistaken, I think I asked Ms. Still out first, boys.

[Nomopo]

Hellooo????

[stillme]

OMG, you guys are making me ! (But don't ask me how many times I've re-read the last few posts. - More ) Y'all are def. good for my PMA & Ego.

Nomo, sorry to hear about your run-in w/the Devil (Drink). LOL. Not as fun as it used to be, huh? You made me LOL about not being able to even get your laptop (a 21st century Weapon?) much less sit a horse & joust. Thanks for the thought, tho.

I'm def. gonna run around to y'all's threads today & try to catch up/see what's going on - and maybe make a dent in welcoming some of the loads of new posters (overwhelmed, anyone?).

S is coming back from his sleepover in an hr. so I gotta make myself presentable (just in case) for the mom/dad.

Somehow, tho it's not supposed to have any side-effects since it's just replacing what my body is not producing, the thyroid med is making my stomach wonky (esp in the morn.) and my sleep is crazy off again. (Plus weird dreams about H, which I haven't had in a long time. Last night he had me sit on his lap - as we used to do all the time eary-R - and wanted to talk positively about our R, and I kept saying "No R talk! No R talk!". Dang weird psyche, huh.)

So, I'll be back in a bit.
TTFN.

[ItsKat]

Wow, still. It sounds like you have lots of options for your next b/f!

Sorry your sleep is off again. I LOL'd at the "No R talk!" in your dream. At least you know you have this stuff down well enough that it is in your subconscious!

Have a great day!

[stillme]

Here's the email comm. from/w H this morn. (Note: This is a man who LIVES on his phone; calls constantly; has his b'berry surgically attached to his hip. Could be he's either too busy to make a 2 min. ph. call, or this new form of comm. [email] is 'needed' for some reason. Just noting a change.)

Can you swap my 25th for your 27th? My stay got extended here in Madison.
J****

Yep.
Cough better?
j

Thanks, and no.
J****

Thought I'd leave the comm. at that.

[Nomopo]

Hmmmmm. Yea, good call leaving it at that.

Nomopo

PS - Plan is posted!

[Reincarnated]

J--
Could be a softening, but remember that they might take 2 steps forward, then one step back.

Sorry that I haven't been around, but it was a challenging week. Sounds like your last exchange made a dent.

Hope that you are making your weekend great. :0)

--D

[stillme]

No, not so much of a dent after all apparently. . . Or else a very good quick-recovery on H's behalf.

The eve of the email exchange, I had to call H at 9:30pm b/c D was having a Missing Daddy moment. After he'd talked w/her for a while, he asked her to put me on & asked for more specifics about the beginning of D's moment -- I was getting her to pack a bag o'stuff for the 2hr ride to visit my parents the next morn. & she all of a sudden broke down & asked why H couldn't come, too, he's always the driver. . . and "It's no fun w/just the 3 of us. It's got to be 4.". . . [cried/whined] "Why can't you just get along!" and finally, "I want Daddy. I miss Daddy.", so I called him -- Anyway, when I gave H the basics of this (D had alredy told him we were going to visit my parents, that she wanted him to come, it was no fun w/just the 3 of us, and he always drove us on trips, he told me, "Well, she'll get used to it after a while." I didn't have anything to say to that (dead-air, dead-air) and he talked a bit about how busy he's been on his trip, & how the CEO called a meeting on Mon. (the day he was orig. supposed to fly back) & that's why he had to switch kid-days w/me this wk. I admit I let the dead-air build; didn't really know what to respond & my heart was stil hurting for D (plus she was still sitting on my lap & I was getting her to blow her nose). I think I cut him off at one point w/a ('quit talking about it') "It's o-kay." & the convo. ended.

This morn. H called while S was in jj class. In response to his (norm) "Hey", I said "Hi" & he imm. asked "Are the kids by you?" Me: "J is here, but A is in the middle of jj class." "Oh. Can I talk to J then?" . . . pass her the phone & after a few min. she asks "Do you want to talk to mommy now?" then "Okay. Bye, daddy."

So, again, more of the same. I don't call him, and when he calls (for the kids) I either get talked to/treated like his secretary or ignored. Damm he's nothing if not consistent.

On another note, I realized I'd been DBing my R w/my dad all these long years - and will pretty much have to continue it as well. Spent 5 long hrs w/mom & dad on their boat & at the marina's pool & he prolly addressed a ques. or comment TO me (independent of me introducing a subject) maybe 5 times (2 of those had to do w/what directions/route I took to get there & how I could do it better on the way home, another was a monologue on the features of his new-fangled ditital camera). In response to my acting As If & going for the hello/g'bye hugs (inmm. after the warm Mom-ones), I got his One-Armed Two-Pats-on-the-Back & Step-Away deal. Oh, and the ONLY ques. they (mom) asked about my sitch was (3 hrs into the visit) "So, has H done anything to further the D along?" and "Does H's job schedule let him see the kids alot?" Helllloooo? I'm fine; thanks for asking. . . Whatever.

So...DBing . . . I cannot control how they/dad think/feel/act & will only make myself crazy trying to figure out why/why they don't [whatever] and they are entitled to their own feelings/thoughts about me/my sitch & so I can Act As If (doing ALL the 'work' in the R/talk myself) but mostly need to take the focus off of him/them & put it on doing whatever I can to make myself a Happy, Healthy & Better Person. (Background: M/D - esp. patriarchal 2nd gen. Italian Dad = strict, old school, lifetime members of the Catholic school of thought. Religion has been a Hands-Off topic btwn us since I was 21 & first started questioning Tradition, tho they know that, since our M & esp since the kids came along H&I have/are raising the kids w/a love for & knowledge of all things Christian.)

Obviously rambling. May be the (OMG! Yummm!!) back-to-back (B.King) Mocha Joe's I sucked down on the drive home, or the (too much?) time for Thoughts on the drives. I feel good about bringing the kids to their g'parents, tho. (4yrs ago when S was 5 & D was 2, H pursuaded me to do a drive-by 2day/2nite visit on our way to Disney/Tampa - which was the only time m/d have ever seen their g'kids b/f today.) But don't know how much time & effort I have to give to this R.

[SunnySeason]

(((((StillMe)))))

It is good that you took the kids to see their g'parents. It is of the utmost respect I have for you in doing that.

Along w/similar H traits, we apparently share the same father. Once about 10 yrs ago I asked him if he loved me (w/mom & dad on separate phone lines w/me), & he hung up. Called back the next day & said, "We all love each other", click. That's the most I've gotten & it's going to have to be good enough I guess.

And you're right, you'll have to use the DB skills w/out much in return it looks like. Sadly, there is not much to be done other than make the best of it & it sounds like you did.

The kids make my heart ache.....

L&K's,
Sunny

[Reincarnated]

J--
OK, you had a downer of a few days, I see. Yep, you are old school at DBing, seems like. My mom was the stand-offish one. Dad was old school Italian, but wore his heart on his sleeve and was LOUD. Mom was Irish Catholic, but they acted more like the stereotypical English. You don't talk feelings or air the dirty laundry. But that side was also full of alcoholism. Both of them have passes away; wish my Dad had gotten to meet my kids, though. He would have been the best grandparent of them all (and H's parents are VERY good/kind).

Amazing how some generalizations work out, huh?

Anyway, glad to hear that you got over to your parents. It sounds like it was as much for you as for them, since it's been so long. Also could explain your Dad's standoffish behavior. I wonder if either of them had a clue as to what they really wanted to say / express, when they haven't had the practice.
***
I'm not sure of your H's tone, but it actually seemed ok that he went out of his way to call and speak with the kids. Maybe D's hurting finally sunk in, and he was focused on that instead of himself / denial of hurting them for a change. Even if not, it may help with the Act As If...

[Nomopo]

Hi still. I didn't see your most recent exchanges with H the same way you did. Sorry I can't give you much time this morning to explain why, but I will be back later. In the meantime, make yourself be positive.

Hugs,
Nomopo

[stillme]

Thanks, Nomo, I'd be interested to hear your slant on things. Had a tough night (and not just cuz I caved & let S sleep w/me. Ugh. One kick in the kidneys when I finally got to sleep, plus his mice-squeak sighs & teeth grinding. Jeez, the kid has issues.) Anyway, fell into a pitiful state and cried like I haven't in a long time. Feel like my parents - as well as H - would all be happier if I just - Pouf! - disappeared. Parents wouldn't have to deal w/the (label) D'd D. H would get to keep everything in his life (all his kids' time, all his $, all his friends' respect...) Am getting better (sleep & coffee are helping) & will be off to church in a while w/the kids (tho prolly choosing a seat way in the back today).

A few things I need to get out of my head:

On F'Day, H took kids to the rest. I had always said I would like to go to for Sunday Brunch. I'm a foo-foo girl at heart, and the (maybe?) 2 times we went there for dinner, I commented about the Brunch and, tho H at the time agreed, he never suggested it and we never went. So, it was a punch to hear that H took the kids for Brunch there for F'Day. Hope he choked on his Eggs Benedict. And I know where I want to go on my firt 'non-date'. (yeah, maybe some of that is leftover pity, but...)

H is (according to kids) wanting to buy a larger house (tho in our same neighborhood) - altho (pre-Bomb) he'd argued against it & was all about 'making do' w/this (smaller) house/note for at least 5 yrs. The new house has/a 2-car + boat storage garage and a downstairs MIL-suite (or Mother, in his case -- the only way he could 'have' the kids 50% of the time w/his job/travel).

H is LAVISHING love & attention, time & $$ on the kids and, believe me, it is wonderful (for the most part) but most of it is/are things that I had begged, nagged & given up on his ever doing - either w/the kids or w/me!! Ex. The ONE time he agreed to do a Family Game/Pizza night, he arrived home [after work he HAD TO go to jj] 1/2 hr b/f the kids' bedtime (school night). Now he buys games & makes a point of saying he/kids NEVER watch tv: they play games or are out having fun. Slap! He had plans (fell thru b/c of his work) to take the kids to a Disney waterpark - tho when I really wanted to (pre-Bomb) it was too much $, not necessary (beaches nearby), disdained b/c it was 'touristy' & taught the kids that fun had to be paid for... Slap! He leaves 'love' notes for D (her LL), tho I'd suggested it as a way for him to connect w/the kids around his being 'gone' so much (pre-Bomb) & tho he INSISTS "this LL stuff is cr*p". SLAP!

There's more, but this is not helping. It's like he's making a Good R w/the kids & Life for himself USING me (my ideas, wants, needs) but WITHOUT me. Make sense?

So, while on the one hand I see that he's (prolly) been considering our past talks/disagreements (building a better R-wise) & implementing now alot of what he denied or fought against then -seeing that I was - perhaps? - right? he's obviously determined to be a New/Better Daddy alone (as in I-Don't-Need-No-Stinkin'-W & My-Kids-Will-Be-Better-Off-and-LOOK!-I'll-Prove-It). It's like he's playing the role of Widower already. Damm. Off to church.

[Nomopo]

Hey j,

I know you know this but it's one of those waves (maybe a REALY BIG one) crashing through. The key being "through." Even that last post made me feel like your emotions are preventing you from seeing things as clearly as you usually do. Of course, the emotions are completely normal and understandable, but we both know you need to snap out of the funk as soon as you can/are ready. Do what you need to get it out of your system (cry?, if you haven't done that enough already), then pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and get moving again. And if you can't "will" yourself to a better place as quickly as you'd like today, what can you do to put your mind on something else?

It just crushes me to see you feel like this. We've all been there, and we KNOW it shall pass, but know that lots of us wish we could be right there to speed it up. ((((stillme))))

Gotta run to pick up the kids. More later!

Nomopo

[stillme]

Thanks, N. Workin' on it. Going to the mall after church to return a few things and (yah/ugh) Mall Food for the kids. May catch a matinee while we're there.

Yeah, it's Sad I'm feeling but it's alot of Frustrated, too, I realized. I mean, if H can see how he was not promoting a Good R w/the KIDS & is now taking (great) steps to fix (or, uh-huh, SAVE) THE R -- why can he not allow himself the idea that he was not promoting a Good R w/ME &, by taking ANY (baby!) steps to fix it (what's the word: outside of 'fixing' the M), there'd be so much to work w/. . . That by choosing to DO THINGS in the kids' best interests, he is becoming happier as a dad, as a person and FEELING more loving & happy. So tho he was disconnected w/the kids thru his own actions/inactions, his new actions/inactions are connecting him w/the kids, but he will not/cannot/refuses to think that the same holds true regarding me/ourR/ourM.

Off to Not Think.

[SunnySeason]

Morning J,

Sleeping w/ lil' ones can be hazardous to your health, I agree. As for the teeth grinding, well....there's a household full of them here, but w/ all our other issues it's at the bottom of the pile right now ;-/.

Everytime I read one of your posts here I think the same thing. This women brings it all, a kinda complete one-stop shopping where you wouldn't have to go anywhere else. (Only analogy I could come up with this morning b/f caffiene, sorry).
You have so many good ideas (complete w/references, explanations,
& insights)on almost every situation that you/we encounter, and have such an attracting way about you, (not to mention your good looks-I've seen a pic).

So, I look at your H taking your good ideas now, as you're prolly right, good ideas that he's implementing now b/c they were good ideas. H will never admit that o/c, at least not now.

Another thought about the "Disneyland Dad", is that he is receiving counsel from someone to fill his journal w/instances of his activites w/kids for future use should he need it to show what kind of father he is, & wants to list as much as possible. I don't mean to imply that he doesn't enjoy the activites, just that it can serve many purposes.

As far as the bigger house w/MIL or mother taking care of kids to have kids 50% of the time, it's my understanding that it doesn't work that way. His mother taking care of the kids while he isn't there & you're available doesn't cut it. If it ever got down to it, you can have an agreement to where if you're availble, you have 1st right to have your children w/you.

It's an unfortunate reality that we all have to think ahead & look at all the angles on this stuff in case we need it. It does make your stomach drop to consider "what could happen", and while it's good to keep the "could" in mind, it's better to have the "might not" happen in mind also when you can.

Your H is a tough one for me to read. It seems that he has a lot of anger issues that he might not be letting go of soon. I don't know tho, b/c of course I don't know him & know what he was like prior to this.

This too shall pass & there are so many people in this world that would be very unhappy if you just went "Pouf", including us here.

L&K's,
Sunny

[Reincarnated]

I agree with Sunny--no 'poofing' allowed! Although I admit to having the very same thoughts...they are not healthy thoughts, either from your own head or mind-read from those around you. My IC snapped me out of it--YOUR CHILDREN need you in their lives, even if things get complicated! But you know that.

btw, if H is taking those suggestions and applying them to the kids, see a positive that he HAS heard and processed you. How long did it take for him to start doing that since the sitch? Maybe he will need the same amount of time, from now, before he starts to manifest some of those in your R. He is learning HOW to have a R, and you showed him the way. He is trying it out, seeing the results. Hold on, J, he may just start applying it to you, too. But it has to seem like it was HIS idea (male ego). Stay positive, keep showing the way. He is watching. It is making a difference.

It really is a positive/positive. He is becoming a better father--great for your kids. Even if it stops there. But I bet it won't...

{{{{J}}}}

Hope Church was rejuvenating.

(I have a teeth-grinder, too--you can hear her across the house!)

[Nomopo]

Yes Donna! That's what I'm seeing on H and his progress vis-a-vis the kids. Still only have a moment here and there on blackberry, but thanks for saying that DF!

[SuperDad]

Stillme,
I want to give you one more thing to think about:

Your H is taking YOUR ideas and implementing them in his R with YOUR kids. This means that he is listening to YOU and acting upon YOUR advice.

I think this is a huge baby step. I know that it is hurting you right now that you are not a part of these activities. He could even be doing it on purpose to try to prove to himself/you what a great father he is.

However, he is not detached from you. He still cares what you think! Deep down, I am sure that he still cares about you as well. The problem is that he is afraid to even crack open the door to a new R with you for fear that it will end back up where you were a year ago.

Be patient! There is still hope for your M, even though (or especially because) your H so often says there is not! Keep showing the world what a smart, well adjusted, and yes beautiful (Nomopo showed me the picture at the beach) woman you are. Either he will come around or you will be faced with tough decisions on which of the many courtiers to choose from!

(((Stillme)))

SD

[C_K]

j.

Not much to add but this made me smile

There's more, but this is not helping. It's like he's making a

Good R w/the kids & Life for himself USING me (my ideas, wants, needs) but WITHOUT me. Make sense?

So, while on the one hand I see that he's (prolly) been considering our past talks/disagreements (building a better R-wise) & implementing now alot of what he denied or fought against then -seeing that I was - perhaps? - right? he's obviously determined to be a New/Better Daddy alone (as in I-Don't-Need-No-Stinkin'-W & My-Kids-Will-Be-Better-Off-and-LOOK!-I'll-Prove-It).

I know its not funny but its almost like "I am going to prove I am right if it kills me ! "

He is trying to show you he can do it , now would you bother doing that for someone you are completely detached from ?

Good to know you are getting better through this turmoil.

Dave

[stillme]

About a hundred years ago, in my high school english class, my teacher told us we all had an IALAC (I Am Lovable And Capable) that started out whole every morning. (She held up a square of paper w/the acronym written across it.) During each day, tho, pieces would be ripped, torn, crumpled & stomped on. Damm, I burnt the toast. . . Shoot! Late for work again. . . Fussing children. . . Nagging H. . . Can't fit into those jeans today. . . Bad hair day. . . Cancelled plans. . . Hurt feelings. . . Frustrations. . .Feeling overwhelmed, etc. Sometimes it's all you can do to end up w/a small corner of your IALAC pinched tightly btwn your thumb & forefinger, and you go to bed feeling beat down & emotionally exhausted & unable to protect that tiny scrap any longer. . . But the magic is that your IALAC becomes wonderfully whole again the next morning. You wake up & the injuries sustained the day before don't feel as raw and, even if the same ones strike again today, they don't tear as much of the IALAC as they did just the day before.

So my IALAC has taken a beating, but (as we know - and as I have said to others on more than one occasion) Tomorrow is Another Day. (That weird life-lesson came to me about a year ago & echoes, alot. Don't even remember how/why tht had to do w/english lit.)

Also funny are the words to a song that came to me in pieces thru the day (tho I seriously was NOT focusing on anything other than being w/the kids). Found myself humming a loop, then trying to put words to it & had to pull out my CD & put it all together when I got home. Strangely, weirdly what I needed to hear:

Hold On (from Broadway musical/The Secret Garden)

What you've got to do is
finish what you have begun.
I don't know just how -
but it's not over til you've won.

When you see the storm is comin',
See the lightning part the skies,
it's too late to run,
there's terror in your eyes.
What you do then is remember
this old thing you heard me say:
It's this storm, not you
that's bound to blow away.

Hold on.
Hold on to someone standin' by.
Hold on.
Don't even ask how long or why.
Child, hold on to what you know is true.
Hold on til you get through.
Child, oh child.
Hold on.

When you feel your heart is poundin',
fear a devil's at your door,
there's no place to hide.
You're frozen to the floor.
What you do then is you force yourself
to wake up and you say:
It's this dream not me
that's bound to go away.

Hold on.
Hold on the night will soon by by.
Hold on.
Until there's nothin' left to try.
Child, hold on, there's angels on their way.
Hold on & hear them say:
Child, oh child.

And it doesn't even matter if the danger & the gloom
come from up above or down below or just come flying at you from across the room.

When you see a man who's ragin',
and he's jealous & he fears
that you've walked thru walls he's hid behind for years,
what you do then is you tell yourself to wait it out & say:
It's this day, not me, that's bound to go away.
Child, hold on.
It's this day, not you, that's bound to go away.

[Reincarnated]

All I can say is Wow. I am looking that up tonight to see if I can get the MP3...

Hold on :0)

[ItsKat]

Hey, Still. I can see you have been down, but you are managing to pick yourself up wonderfully as you always seem to do. ((Still))

BTW, I went to see my neice in "The Secret Garden" that she was in at her college a couple of years ago. She was the Nanny who sang that song. I saw the show 2 nights and cried both times partly because she is such a gifted singer, but also because that song is very powerful. I am off to see if I can find that song to listen to also.

[stillme]

Thanks Sunny, for the compliments about my posts (Tho what I think when I re-read them is: Damm! Can I NOT write a sentence that DOESN'T have some sort of tangent/side-bar action going on?! -- See what I mean?!). . .but glad anything I have to say/offer helps.

Another thought about the "Disneyland Dad", is that he is receiving counsel from someone to fill his journal w/instances of his activites w/kids for future use should he need it to show what kind of father he is, & wants to list as much as possible. I don't mean to imply that he doesn't enjoy the activites, just that it can serve many purposes.

Yeah, I'd thought of that. Thanks for the heads-up - but I also have the calendars from the 2 years prior to Bomb showing not only H's job-related & hobby-related times, but MY good-R time w/my kids.

As far as the bigger house w/MIL or mother taking care of kids to have kids 50% of the time, it's my understanding that it doesn't work that way. His mother taking care of the kids while he isn't there & you're available doesn't cut it. If it ever got down to it, you can have an agreement to where if you're availble, you have 1st right to have your children w/you.

H is ASSuming I will be agreeable to a 50/50 split of 'custody' & that "we" (meaning I) will work together w/scheduling conflicts. As nice as that sounds in theory & as much as I would hate for him to NOT have enough time w/the kids, I just don't see it happening, and I'm dreading the time it comes to a show-down about it.

H IS a tough one to read. Pre-Bomb he was NEVER an agry person, NEVER held grudges - even kept offering olive-branch after olive-branch to his dad over the years -- And my C says H is D'ing me b/c he CANNOT D his dad as we BOTH have emotionally abandoned him &, in H's mind, my doing it was Worse b/c I had vowed to love him until death do us part whereas his dad never made any such promise and, in fact, H KNEW his dad was an un-worthy person from the get-go. So, yeah, he's got anger-issues -- and will continue to have anger issues unless/until he's willing to face them & deal w/them himself. Question is: Will that come TOO LATE for our R/M?

[stillme]

And thanks, Donna, for the support & thoughts.

(The Pouf! reference is purely a magical thing - in no way means or implies that I effect the Pouf-ing. But thanks for the reminder.)

Yes, H applying my ideas to his R w/the kids is a pos. thing for the kids, and for his R w/them. He IS such a bettr father today than he was for the past 3, 4, 5? Does he see that he prolly wouldn't have thought of doing these things if left to his own devices? Prolly not. He (way pre-Bomb; as in the Original H) was always very caring & empathetic & thoughtful. The last few yrs his R w/the kids suffered as H got more & more concerned w/his OWN wants/happiness. Assuming he didn't continue on that way, he prolly would have come up w/something like these ideas on his own at some point.

Yeah, MAYBE he'll start applying Better-the-R things to me, too. Tho he DID (Feb/March) & I'm still confused about that. He was all about giving my LL (QT), talking w/me (not AT me), putting on movies that I would want, NOT being on his cell/laptop in the evenings, making "girl" drinks in the blender. . .Then he stopped. I WILL keep showing the way; I know he's still watching & learning from me (esp how to deal w/the kids/D/S thing now). It's just hard.

[Nomopo]

I think H picking up on the R tips and applying to the kids is not only a positive for his relat with the kids but for your sitch too. Still on blackberry.

[stillme]

SuperDad, your post hit very close to dead-on w/this sitch w/H.

Yes, H is taking my ideas & bettering his R w/the kids w/them. He has never (until lately) discounted my Mothering & was always pretty vocal about giving me the credit for raising the kids so well, 'knowing' how to do it best & following my lead.

It DOES hurt that he purposely excludes me, and intimates that he would have thought of/done these things (despite me) IF he'd not been working so hard (to 'support' the fam. - oh, no his ego/aspirations had NOTHING to do w/it tho); and I guaran-damm-tee he's doing it to prove what a Great Father he is/can be all by himself.

But, no. He is not detached from me. He is trying like heck to harden his heart against me and by focusing on his financial-based anger, he's successful.

The problem is that he is afraid to even crack open the door to a new R with you for fear that it will end back up where you were a year ago. This makes me want to cry, it's so true and I can't do a thing about it.

I've got patience still. I'm still w/my Ship. I still have Hope (tho the flame flickers weakly at times). I AM a good person, smart, self-aware (now!), happy (for the most part), healthy & getting Better every day.

As for the 'beautiful', ha! Thanks. (Today, when the guy in the truck stopped next to mine at a light did the chin-jerk eye-contact thing, my first (only) thought was "Oh cr*p! Do I know him??" (I've an AWFUL memory for faces/names!) so, lol, blinders still on.


PS~Found out today that H "doesn't let" the kids call their g'mom (his mom). Don't know what that's all about but it's another thing that's (a) not my business but (b) hurts my heart for my kids' sake.

[C_K]

j

good to read that you are getting better every day. The emotional shut out is tough to deal with.
Concentrate on what you are doing and try not to worry about him too much for a while.

Dave

[Reincarnated]

{{{J}}}

It hurts, I know...look back through not only some of your own work, but the postings you've made to the countless of us here. You really have a wonderful light and wisdom about these things. Sometimes it is hard to see that within ourselves, but you can see it in the way you help other people...

on the lighter side, when you mentioned "harden his heart," I had the very inappropriate vision of a Mentos candy--hard on the outside, chewy on the inside! So, he may still be an ol' softy, hiding it away ;0)

[Nomopo]

Hey j. Haven't forgotten about you but you've had some good advice and all I was hoping to do was to review some of your posts in the past two weeks to put these most recent exchanges in context. I still plan to do it, but it will have to be later today/tonight. I know you've bounced back, so it felt less urgent. Have a great day!

[Reincarnated]

J--
Making other connections so you feel less alone? Because, you know that you are wanted / appreciated / needed by so many...

Thinking of you,
D

[stillme]

So, I read a good book last night: James Dobson's Love Must be Tough (recommended by friend K who used it herself). Lots of parallels w/DB/DR on what to do when a spouse wants Out - but when I got to certain parts, I actually went "Yes! THAT's my H!! That's my sitch!" So, tho I know I shoulda implemented the 48 hr rule, the opportunity arose today and, well, . . . Let me back up a bit.

(paraphrasing) Love Must Be Tough: Long before any decision is made to cheat/walk out, something basic has begun to change in the R. This is NOT, as many books claim, the gen'l 'falure to communicate' (which is a symptom of a deeper prob.). The critical element is the way one spouse begins to perceive the other & their lives together. One spouse begins to feel TRAPPED and, as time passes, thoughts follow that show the other spouse in more & more dim light (She's out of shape, not very interesting, no fun, bad w/money, doesn't love me enough, disorganized etc.) The [WAS] begins to chafe at the bit w/o revealing to the other how his perception has evolved (b/c a reasonably compassionate person does not sit down calmly & disclose those kinds of thoughts to someone who loves him) and his behavior begins to change - increased evenings out (or anything to keep him out of the home), becoming irritable, withdrawn or noncommunicative, a changed lifestyle that makes HIM more interesting, fun etc. (to himself) and, of course, he may move out and/or find someone else. While the trapped partner is thinking/doing these things, the other spouse most likely starts clinging & grasping, nagging, complaining or shutting down herself.

In most troubled M's, the basic problem involves the way one partner has begun to perceive the other - when one spouse's "value" (as ascribed to him/her by his own spouse) diminishes. That perceived worth is incorporated in the word "RESPECT" and it is absolutely basic to all human R's. The way we behave from day-to-day is largely a function of how we respect or disrespect the people around us. Employees/boss, children/parents, friends, family, strangers, and Nations. That's why marital discord ALMOST ALWAYS emanates from seething disrespect somewhere in the R! That is the bottom line of romantic confrontation.

If there is hope for a dying M, then it is likely found in the reconstruction of RESPECT btwn warring H & W.

How?
1 ~ The vulnerable spouse must first open the cage & let the trapped partner out! All techniques of containment must end imm.: manipulative grief, anger, guilt, appeasement, begging, pleading, hand-wringing & playing the role of doormat. (There may be a time & place for strong feelings to be expressed, and there may be an occasion for quiet tolerance, but these responses must not be used as persuasive devices to hold the drifting partner against his/her will.) Now let your partner marvel at your self-control in coming weeks. Only the passage of time will convince him that you are serious: that he actually IS free. He may even test you during this period by expressions of great hostility or insult. But one thing is certain: He will be watching for signs of weakness or strength. The vestigages of Respect hang in the balance.

If the vulnerable spouse passes the initial test & convinces the partner that his freedom is secure, some (typical/extremely common) changes occur in the R: (1) Trapped partner no longer feels it necessary to fight off the other, the strain btwn them eases; (2) The question the 'cooled' spouse has been asking himself changes from "How can I get out of this mess?" to "Do I really want to go?" Just knowing that he can have his way makes him less anxious to achieve it. (3) The mind of the vulnerable spouse changes in that she feels somehow more in control of the sitch, she has begun to respect herself, she has a plan/a program/a definate course of action to follow & that is infinitely more comfortable than the utter despair & powerlessness felt before. And little by little, the healing process begings.

(2 ~ ANY personal crisis, esp when it involves something as important as the stability of a family, should begin w/concerted prayer. There is something about great stress that takes us back int he direction of responsibility.)

3 ~ A deliberately conceived confrontation may take a M literally to the door of death. Precipitate a crisis of major proportions. Give a reason for the [WAS] to want to reroute his river, as he is unlikely to make the investment of energy & self-control to accomplish that task until he absolutely must. It is only when he becomes miserable that he will accept the responsibility for change. it is only when he sees everything of value to him (his home, his children, his wife, his reputation) begin to slip away that his choices will become clear. It is only when the well runs dry that he will begin to miss the water.

Tough love.

If a spouse is wavering btwn responsibility & irresponsibility, confused or conflicted as to which path he should choose, he needs a strong excuse to do the right thing and can almost seem to be asking for motivation.

Hang tough -- Diff. sitchs/diff individuals will respond more/less positively & take more/less time . . .

Remember that the basic marital problem usualy involves matters of respect, which are often generated during instances of confrontation. This is true of human nature. By having the courage to stand up for themselves, a spouse may regenerate a portion of the respect they have lost.

By making it clear that there are limits to what you can/will tolerate, you are showing self-respect and confidence and, strangely, that often draws the partner towards you.

The precipitated crisis must first be accompanies by an entire change of attitude. You must appear strangely calm & assured. CONFIDENCE is of maximum importance. Your manner (NOT your mouth!) should say, "I believe in me. I'm no longer afraid. I can cope, regardless of the outcome. I know something I'm not talking about. I'm thru crying. I can handle whatever life puts in my path."

Parallel DBing: Change! Don't do/say what you normally would. Be unpredictable. Be mysterious. Unless there is business to be conducted, don't telephone a S who has Separated. When you must talk, get right to business after a few words of small talk, then politely terminate the call. Do not take the bait as he may try to get you to divulge your 'hand'. It is uncomfortable for him to observe tht changes are occurring which he neither controls nor understand. Do not behave in unloving ways.

The partner who is threatening to leave is rarely convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's doing the right thing. He's equipped w/a God-given conscience, after all, that is hammering him w/guilt. We can assume that some degree of self-doubt exists in a majority of the H & W's who are threatening to leave. Tho he appears resolute & determined, a tug of war is going on inside.

**Most important part of the face-to-face crisis experience.** Carefully organize your thoughts & rehearse what you plan to convey. Seek perspective. The central theme should not focus on what you hope your partner will do, but on your own conclusions.

*****************8

So that's the gen'l nut-shell idea. When H called today & (again) expected his "Secretary" (me) to accommodate accede to his wants/needs re: the sitch in gen'l & scheduling kid-sharing for July in particular, I,uh, precipitated a crisis.

To recap, I (we've) already done the beginning steps:
1. Crying, reasoning, OR Talks (initiated by me) ended Jan.4
2. DBing began Jan.5 when I told H I would not fight him anymore; he deserves to be happy; he can file the papers & I will sign
3. Dbing continued (180's, GALing, Detaching slowly but surely) w/pos. results until H latched on to Anger (job sitch/financial based) as a focus rathr than our (to then) good/better R (mid-March)
4. S since mid-March, tho H NOT detached (constant calls, stops by, frequent talks, escalating ugliness, consistent anger, blame, control issues
5. To date (7 mo post-bomb) no papers have been filed & H has admitted to not even seeing a L. For past few mo. he has been pressuring me to cooperate w/ or "mutually" D
6. I have remained (for most part) calm, detached, friendly (trying for Dim to avoid further Talks & ugliness, tho obviously w/o expected results)
7. My cooperation, accommodation, agreeableness is def. perceived as a weakness by H. His ugliness escalates; he has no respect for me; and expects Sitch/D & all it entails will go according to his Plan (to his benefit)

My DBing/Plan/Program has allowed me knowledge, personal growth, self-awareness, understanding, insight, empathy, compassion, foregiveness, confidence . . . and respect for and enjoyment in myself again.

More of the same behavior will allow H to continue his (pretty) comfortable perch on the top of his pillar of Anger, far away from thoughts of his responsibility for what-went-before as well as what-is-to-be. He is cake-eating this M/R - enjoying the benefits of it when it suits him or when he thinks to get something for his efforts. Expecting that it will continue; that I "want him back" so badly I will do anything for it.

Today I did a 180 in our scheduling. In a very controlled/pre-meditated way, I used anger (complete w/raised voice & 4-letter words) & allowed him to hear that I was "done" w/him & his "wants". (Ex. When I told him I'd registered the kids for Vacation Bible School Mon-Fri one wk; 6-8:30pm he imm. jumped on me for not clearing it w/him first. Even tho I said it was up to him whether/not to take the kids on whatever "his" nights were that wk, he still carried on. I can never be right. He wants/needs to be able to TELL ME what to do, when & how cheerfully.) It took almost an hr & a "time-out" excuse to hang up for a while for us to schedule 1 mo.

He held tight to his "Reasonable Boss talking to the Low-IQ-Underling" tone for the most part, but did spew a bit about how I was out to "bleed him dry" (child support) b/c he knew I was trying to make sure I got more than my "fair" 50% of the month w/the kids (when he was wanting 16 days). How I "HAD TO" put his needs/wants first b/c, after all, HE was the one paying the bills. . . I said that no judge would require me to accommodate him on a month-to-month, week-to-week & day-to-day basis like I had been; and that after the D it would be set up much differently.

He said, at one point in response to something I'd said, "Yu think I have a CHOICE in this? (referring to D) You think any of this is MY FAULT?!" I said, "We all have choices, J. Stop thinking like a victim & a martyr & you'll see that."

When the last date was set, I said "15 days. Wonderful." and hung up.

He called back an hr later.
I didn't answer. He didn't leave a message.

He called at 5:30pm WHEN HE KNOWS WE ARE AT JIU JITSU!

H: "Hey"
Me: [nothing]
H: "Are the kids there?"
Me: "J, come talk to your father."
[We have to take phone calls outside the (small) studio. H knows this. I go outside on the sidewalk w/D as she talks. H knows I don't leave the kids alone on the street. At one point I hear her say "Yeah, she's right by me." I'm not listening.
THEN HE TELLS HER TO PUT ME ON & I couldn't think of a way to get out of it w/o putting D in the middle, so I take it.

Me: Yes?
H: How much advance notice do you need for me to borrow the Yukon?
Me: What? -- When?
H: (his friendly, buddy voice) I don't know. X is still working on the engine, but it'll be done soon, and I'll have to pick it up, and I'll need the Yukon to get it.
Me: So, you're asking to borrow my car.
H: I NEED to use it. I just need to know how much time in advance I need to tell you.
Me: [dead-air]
H: Do you have anything planned - any trips or anything where you'll need it?
Me: Look. How 'bout you figure out when exactly you'd like to borrow it, and I'll see then.



It's awfully Dark in here. . .

I realize this sounds like I've shot my own - well - HEAD, but I surely think this is the right track. I've followed DBing and, as y'all have seen, H is holding strong to his position and increasing the ugliness and disrespect. He has his Plan, his wants & is convinced I'm no match for him. By continuing to allow this, I will have only myself to blame when our R dies a wimpering death & I roll over in a last-ditch effort to "make him" [whatever], or it all blows up in our faces during the D negotiations. H truly believes I am not worth anything - even the time, effort or money needed to D me. He "knows" me. My "value" in his eyes is nill. Yes, I know Believe Nothing He Says..., but I also know that HE BELIEVES what he is saying! His ANGER will not let him consider the possibility that he might be [anything else], that HIS WAY is not the Right or Best Way (for anyone but himself). It was said, he cannot sustain this anger indefinately - but he CAN re-flame the damm thing constantly (which is what he's been doing w/the frequent spewing & OR talks & blame) & I believe he has been re-convinced that I am NOT-WORTHY of Respect every time he goes unchecked in his words/actions.

So, surely, give me your thoughts & opinions. I'm open to it. But I'm committed to Dark now - NO contact (What's to talk about? The schedule is done.) and Mystery (non-date, anyone?); taking a page out of Sunny's book & Dressing to Impress on my evenings out (whether/not H will be around to witness it or not); etc

He thinks he doesn't want me?
He could only HOPE to catch me!

[Reincarnated]

He thinks he doesn't want me?
He could only HOPE to catch me!

I love this!!!

J, I have to tell you, I JUST read the same thing you posted...someone over at Separated sent me the link. Here:

Donna, here is an article you may want to read, I think it could give you a lot of insight into what OT has been telling you about the pursuing. Opening the cage door, think about it..

http://www.family.org/marriage/A000001322.cfm

Dafty

Please, go over and see the response I wrote to her on my thread when you get a chance.

It is a respect thing. But not only respecting their decisions to leave (just as we respected their decision to marry us). But we have to respect OURSELVES!!!! I think that you did a fair amount of that today.

If you really want to throw him, the next time he gives you any hateful words (which I know he loves to throw)...don't say anything. But either 1) get up and leave the room or 2) quietly hang up.

You have me humming Aretha Franklin...

R E S P E C T......

[Nomopo]

I dunno Bwana. I just read your post pretty quickly on my BB, but it sounds pretty damn good to me!

[C_K]

WOW

Thats gutsy stuff , I certainly have a whole heap of respect reading that , and today I needed to read that , thanks so much for posting it.

Dave

[sunshine74]

Still: First and foremost this is excellent....

I was wondering though... what is you take on this quote...

"If a spouse is wavering btwn responsibility & irresponsibility, confused or conflicted as to which path he should choose, he needs a strong excuse to do the right thing and can almost seem to be asking for motivation."

This is exactly where my husband is at...
How do you think I can give him a excuse to do the right thing??
Might need to break it down for me a bit...sometimes my head it thick...lol

Sunshine74

[cliffy]

Great post tonight Still, I think you may have hit on something in your R. You are standing for your M, but to stand there has to be respect. I think many of us look at giving space, etc. and bottle a bunch in and lack on the boundaries. I know this is my case. You are setting them and demanding respect, this is excellent in my opinion. Now if I can take a play from this playbook, I may find a way to gain a little more.

[SunnySeason]

StillMe,

I think you're doing the right thing so strongly I'm vibrating!!

His thinking he knows you, & treating you as if you had no value has opened a door that he'll wish he'd never cracked.

I think you expressed your own "conclusions" to him well & I'm damm proud of you!

This, I believe, was the way to go. H was determined to prove your unworthiness & therefore his rightful decision to D you.

Because it's such a contrast to the way it has been, it's really going to get a big reaction of some kind, so fasten your seat belt!

He was begging for this........Now show him what you're made of J!

Almost feel sorry for him.....Almost ;-/

Sunny

[C_K]

I think you're doing the right thing so strongly I'm vibrating!!

New Batteries HuH ???

Sorry couldnt help myself

[ItsKat]

Wow, still. Not that I think you needed them, but you seem to have found a whole new set of b@lls yesterday!

I think you are on the right track. You have tried other ways, being upbeat, helpful, accomodating, and all your H has done has continued w/ his anger and disrespect. No sense in doing more of the same if it isn't getting you anywhere. After you stood up for yourself yesterday, he was, all of a sudden, much friendlier in his next call. Hmmmmmm.

Dang, now you are going to make me go dig out that book again!

[stillme]

Sunshine, I reeaalllly don't feel comfortable offering advice on this one. I JUST read the book myself. It seems to call to me - for MY particular sitch - and I've decided to follow it for me. But I really don't know how it will go. For you - I know you're not that far post-bomb and have only 'really' started DBing (or doing it most correctly). Certainly, certainly, continue DBing. But this Tough Love - Very easy to morph into Tough Sh!t. The Control thing (my admitted issue) is a hard one to, well, control when we're getting into Respect. I believe we cannot MAKE someone respect us (as in change their mind if they don't WANT to respect us) but Tough Love calls for us to Respect Ourselves &, with the Crisis Confrontation, set that respect boundary around us as it relates to our Spouse. Very, very tricky. LOVING respect (as is LOVING Detachment) is so very important.

I'm not sure, really, whether this is warranted in your sitch (or warranted NOW) tho I'll try to pop on over & re-review later today when I'm back online. I know you're H has been all about needing re-assurances from you. He's NOT disrespecting you, tho (right?) & he doesn't have an OW (right?) - so what boundary are you wanting to set?

Anyway, this is better posted on your own thread, so - like I said, I'll check you out later.

Think about it.

[stillme]

Thanks, Kat! (I think LOL.

Definately, more of the same was not getting me anywhere but more (& more open) disrespect from H. We'll see what happens next.

His 'much friendlier' phone call afterwards was his norm, tho. He EXPECTS that he is ENTITLED to TELL ME (Notice that nowhere was there a "Could I...?" or "Would you mind...?" in his car-borrowing convo.) how I could best accommodate him/his life. Yes, it's a Control Thing as well for him. But in his mind, there is no problem w/ -- 3 hrs after, uh, fussing w/me for an hr over a "My life is separate from yours" issue (kid-sharing) --he acts all friendly-like so that he gets what he wants from me.

[Reincarnated]

Do you think it would do anything to call him on just that? Next time he gets all mushy, remind him of the venom and ask why the difference now? Would probably just bring him back to mad, though........

Could this idea be reversed? Remind him of the politeness when he starts to spew venom? I guess that goes back to hanging up if he can't talk to you respectfully.

Do you remember the scene when Tom Cruise keeps getting hung up on by the pimp in Risky Business? That's what I was thinking...

[L21959]

Stillme --

Board time has been scarce lately, but just wanted you to know i've just caught up with your thread from several days... and i really admire your straight thinking, your courage and strength! I'm thinking of you, and sending good thoughts your way that this is a new step in the right direction... it definitely seems to be for you, hope it will be for R as well!

L

[stillme]

Donna, not sure what the "all mushy" reference was to. I haven't had any "mush" for so long I've forgotten what it looks/sounds like. Also, the "politeness" reference? If you mean MY politeness, well H has had obviously no appreciation for that as it only served to escalate H's teeth grinding & disrespect for me.

So, still going w/the Cold & Done (or, as I like to think of it: Setting The Stage). H didn't call yest (for the kids) at all. This morn. he calls while D & I were still snuggling in my bed (must've been 8am or so). D ran to get it & got back into bed w/me - as she talked I could hear H's side as well. Not that they mean alot, but there were def. 2 times H seemed to be "digging" for info. "You went to the movies? Was it just you & A & mommy?" & "You have a new friend? Where did you meet her?"

H (again) obviously said some version of "No, thanks" when D asked her usualy "Do you want to talk to mommy now?"; then he talked to S. About 10 min. later he calls back. (Turns out he was at the airport term., so MAYBE he "had to" end the first call early? The 2nd call was when he was having b'fast & had more time (to kill, to want to talk to someone who cared?) - So, D answered the phone again & they talked again. I was up & around by then, but soon S comes to me w/the phone held out. "Daddy wants to talk to you." I let a little dead-air build (stroking S's hair) to stall, then took the phone & said "Yes?"
H: "I'm going to p/u the kids when I get back."
Me: [dead-air]
H: "I'm driving there straight from the airport."
Me: "Is there a time frame we're talking about, or do I not get to know that?"
H: (snippy) "Yes. You get to know. It'll be around lunchtime."
Me: Okay. Is that all?
H: No. That's not all. Just wait & I'll look at my ticket. . . Okay. My flight gets in at X, so I'll be at the house btwn X & Y."
Me: Fine.
H: I need S to have his jj stuff ready to go.
Me: Is that all?
H: Yes! Bye.
Me: [click]

Yest. I took the family photo off the 'fridge that's been there since Jan.6th (day after DBing began, when I started acting As If & asked H if he would like to join me & 2 kids at Pirates Dinner Adventure [2 free tix given to us by friend]. He twisted his day around & we all went, had a very fun (like Normal!) time & H, for the first time ever!, bought the photo-pkg when offered. (Actually, we both answered "yes" at the same time when the pirate came around selling it.) I had been chosen as part of a relay team (throwing booty-beanbags up to the pirate in the crow's nest &, b/c of my, um, lack in the Height Dept. &, lol, b/c I was laughing too much to do it well, ended up beaning a poor woman in the head w/it instead. My eyes automatically sought out H's & he was LOLing along & reaching out to High-5 me. THAT's what I remember when I look at that photo. -- And that's the only family photo we had up (All the others of our wedding/dating went into the bathroom trash on Bomb-Day & stayed there for a good week b/f I put all the trash out.) -- So, now that photo's gone.

I also have the dining room table covered w/piles of the photos I have not scrapbooked for - literally - the past year. There are photos of the July trip (when H admitted to deciding on the D), plus the '06 F'Day Wkend in Miami (Yeah, happy smiley faces all around!), plus holidays, b'day parties, the Pirates pics, family-times (during DBing Friendly Roommates times) & then me&kids times. . . I've started making my way thru the piles & will make honest pages documenting the family. Moving on.

H will no doubt want to keep the kids not only tonight (a scheduled) but - b/c he missed first Mon., then Tues (as his travel got extended day to day) - tomorrow night as well. Then he's to have them Fri-thru-Tues morning. Don't know if I'll make that an issue - yet. But will prolly 'let' him have Thurs. night b/c I was going out with The Girls anyway.

Fri I have Night Out plans as well. Gonna step up the evenings out (even if they ARE evenings spent at a friend's, or at the bookstore) b/c, as usual, H will no doubt be stopping by all thru the wkend for whatever reason. Friend A wants me to fly to Bahamas over 4th of July (in HER friend's 4-seater, to stay at his fam's beachhouse), but I can't b/c I'll have the kids back by then. But would'a been nice, huh? Gonna start planning the get-aways to the friends that have been inviting me (Daytona, def., but unless flights are stupid-cheap I don't see how I can fly to Houston for a wkend - yet).

Gonna line up some non-dates going to the places I've always wanted to go (w/H) -- that Brunch rest., Cirque de Soleil, local & traveling B'way theatre, etc. I think I got too lax in that part of the GALing. IF it gets back to H, he'll see that I'm not waiting around for him any more. IF it gets back that I went w/a 'non-female', hmmmm... H has seen that I've been GALing but saw/heard thru kids that most (if not all) was done around Pilates/gym, kids, or w/girlfriends who he 'knows' & prolly feels/thinks wouldn't do anything 'wrong' - plus the fact that I've obviously been "waiting for him to change his mind", well, why should he be threatened? Time to shake that up a bit.

So - Plan in effect. Time to get my Game Face (&, uh, outfit) on. Will be ready to leave when H comes by in a few hrs for the kids. NO talk; distracted; no opp for him to (lol, as IF!) talk about his trip, his job, his boat or whatever else he sometimes brings up when the mood to "be nice" strikes. I've got Other Things to do.

Ta!

[ItsKat]

Hmmmm, dead air. I think I will start incorporating that into more of my conversations.

I know what you mean about pictures. I look at pictures of H during certain times and wonder what was actually going through his head when the picture was taking. Was his smile just for show? Oh well, can't worry about it. I, too, am anxious to get through these last couple of years of pics and move on to the future. Luckily, most of our pics are of our kids because they are the cutest things ever.

You go with the GALing! Sounds like some fun stuff!

[stillme]

Just had a Thought!

Why can't I "GO" on Bahamas trip??? I'll just "go" on the wkend. No, not actually fly there (b/c, really, I was/am very nervous about the little airplane thing anyway), but say that I've been invited away for the WKEND w/friends so I won't be home. Or just BE GONE for the wkend, w/no explanation - or vague whatever if necessary. Then go & stay at Friend A's house for the wkend. ?? Still thinking. . .

Also just put on the (mostly bleh) HITS LIST music channel. Def. 180. Party Like a Rock Star is on now. LOL.

Sprayed perfume a little heavy this morn. . .

H thinks I'm an Actress?
This will be an Academy-Award winning performance.

[SunnySeason]

Morning J,

Well, if I'm having a reaction to your "Setting The Stage", then I can only imagine your H is! Have a feeling he'll be doing lots of kid quizzing in the near future. I don't lie to my kids, I do however make it mysterious (they don't know where mommy goes either) to them also, since I don't want to put them in an uncomfortable position. S4 is difficult to get anything out of in the best of circumstances since he was a late talker. Your kids are very articulate, so mystery will be a lil' tougher, I'm guessing.

I'm looking forward to hearing about the new GAL & how it plays out.

Like I said, I would love to be one of your "non-dates". It would just be the airfare, so less than taking your kids to an amusement park or a couple of dinners out. You haven't told me yes, but ya haven't turned me down either. D*mm, you're even good @ DBing me!

L&L,
Sunny

[confuseddude]

just catching up on the sitch stillme...doing just fine it looks like

[stillme]

More ideas (Shoot - think I'm ALREADY enjoying this a bit too much. lol)

-wearing earrings I wouldn't normally during the day (tho not by any stretch gaudy or evening-wear)
-left H's mail in a messy pile in the 'foyer' (Til now, it's been in the 'usual mail place' on the kitchen counter)
-Kids' Stuff (jj gear, blankets) to take w/H is in the messy pile S left it on the sofa. (Usually, I make it nice & neat)
-The Orlando Music Scene mags are on the floor by the sofa (picked up more than a wk ago & haven't looked at them since - but will!) The one w/the racier cover (neon colored bikini-clad cartoon woman) is poking out from under the top on.
-left the kids' rooms w/unmade beds & not as picked up as norm. (ie., didn't have time/couldn't be bothered/forgot. . .)
-gonna tell H it's no prob he keeps kids Thurs. as that will save me bbysitter's fee but that they'd had a playdate set for Fri morn (which we did) b/c the schedule said he wouldn't be getting them until that aft/evening. Let him decide what to do about playdate.

More ideas coming. . .

About the kids, yeah, I don't lie to them but I am prolly the master of the non-answer & the change-the-subject, lol. Also thought I'd "invent" a friend (female) H AND KIDS don't know as the one I'm spending alot of time w/. . .

Still considering the trip, Sunny. (LOL - keep you guessing; by mysterious; are you worth it?) NOT! I am SO wanting to visit! Give me a bit to see what's up. (Don't want to mess w/your own sitch tho. Could be good/could be not-so-good if H's wanting to/thinking to [do whatever pos] & I'm hanging around. . .

[stillme]

More --

-Put (that!) pic of me & kids at beach in place of (Pirate's) fam. photo on fridge w/magnet "Life's too short" above.
-Leaving dishwasher door open w/clean dishes half-emptied PLUS dishdrain full of drying dishes AND some dirty b'fast dishes/cups on the counter btwn the 2. Hmmm, not showing a definitive answer on the "wash your own damm dishes & help me out financially" now am I? (Did I mention he has now made it his norm to reduce his bi-monthly checks [for food/gas/kids/misc expenses] by $100 EACH check?)
-Left ins. co. check (reimbursement of my C fees which has to be made payable to H & signed over to me) face-down on his stack of mail w/ "Deposit only xxxxx" & a pen next to it. Don't even have to ASK him to do this "for" me.
-Going out to check out paint colors for my bath. Been meaning to do this since H movd out (and actually since WE moved in b/c I HATE the periwinkle blue the prior owner colored one wall, and the beige on the others). Also gonna do a little update/re-do in the kids' bath

[stillme]

And, oh yeah, leaving Hotwire's Travel Deals web page up on the 'puter screen. . .

[insert: evil smiley-face here]

[Nomopo]

but unless flights are stupid-cheap I don't see how I can fly to Houston for a wkend - yet

I've got an easy solution to this problem, but I have a better idea related to this

Like I said, I would love to be one of your "non-dates". It would just be the airfare, so less than taking your kids to an amusement park or a couple of dinners out. You haven't told me yes, but ya haven't turned me down either. D*mm, you're even good @ DBing me!

Interested girls?

Wait, I see you're way ahead of me:

Still considering the trip, Sunny. (LOL - keep you guessing; by mysterious; are you worth it?) NOT! I am SO wanting to visit! Give me a bit to see what's up. (Don't want to mess w/your own sitch tho. Could be good/could be not-so-good if H's wanting to/thinking to [do whatever pos] & I'm hanging around. . .

So what's new about that???

[SuperDad]

Stillme,
Not sure where your sitch is going, but it at least brightened up my lunch hour!
SD

[stillme]

Just journaling the interaction:

H came as I was in D's room reading w/them. He let himself in the front door w/o even knocking; called "Let's go, kids". S ran to see him; D said "I want to stay w/you" when I asked "Aren't you going to see daddy?" So I shooed her out & went into S's room to pick up/make the bed. (I hear H turn down the Music Channel on the t.v.) After a bit (kids running back & forth getting shoes etc) I went to living room, stood w/arms folded leaning against the wall, & asked (matter-of-fact) "Do you want to keep the kids tomorrow night since you didn't get Mon.or Tues. this wk?" H says he can't/wasn't planning on it b/c of his work schedule, going so far as to show me his little calendar & pointing out his X'd out work days & his dentist appt. Fri.) Then he reverses. Back & forth for a little bit. Finally agree I will call him when I know what time Thurs night & he'll bring them back to me Fri. after b'fast for the playdate at 10am. After that was finished, I took a few steps towards the kitchen & he started talking again - about NEEDING the Yukon to p/u his boat engine (and he's rifling thru a photo stack [of MY childhood photos, given to me by my parents the other day]. So tho I came back around the corner from the kitchen, I didn't say anything & he asked "Or are you going to be difficult about me using the car when I need it?" and I said that separating our lives means separating everything, and it wasn't OUR car anymore.
H: "But I mow the lawn."
Me:"Yes. B/c you are using the garage to store your boat FOR NOW."
H: "So you're telling me I need to get a diff vehicle to tow my boat --"
Me:"Yes. And another place to store it, after the D."
H: "Well, what about for now? Are you going to tell me I can't use it to p/u my engine?"
Me: "One: IF you can tell me WHEN you want to use it and IF I'm not busy. . . and TWO: IF you can ASK for the favor instead of TELLING ME how it's gonna be. . ."
H: Then let me rephrase: CAN I use the Yukon to p/u the engine when I need it?"
Me: If I'm not busy, yeah, maybe."
He left, slamming the front door.
(Kids were outside in his car during all this.)

Stage: check
Props: check
Character X Character Development: check, begun
Character Y fallen off his "I'm the Writer, Director & Producer of this Story. Nothing happens unless I want it to" chair.
On to Scene Two (tomorrow eve.) . . .

(Boys & girls, don't try this at home!)

[Nomopo]

Awesome. Probably goes without saying, but for this work you're likely to have to be consistent for a period of time.

[stillme]

Consistent w/the New & Improved GALing, 180's, mytery, etc. Yeah. But I'm thinking to throw in occasional "nice J" moments of confusion, too.

Gotta run. BBS.
j.

[Nomopo]

Hmmm. Well, thinking off the top of my head, I guess I could see some appearances by Nice J just in tone, and attitude (as opposed to putting up with his demands versus requests, making things fit his schedule and his BS tone from time to time). On the other hand, maybe Nice J goes on a long vacation. Do you want this new message to be confused or pretty darn clear?

[Reincarnated]

I don't know if you should be having so much fun ;0)

I went out and bought myself new perfume, toe rings, running around/on the computer/on the phone with H around, by and large. Or snuggling with the kids.

H told me today that there is a 6 month wait for passports (why does he care if I go to Italy? Why is he talking with the guy at work about it? Hmmmmm)

[stillme]

Oh, I want the message to be clear as a bell, but I want HIM confused! (Consider how much of our [LBS] time is spent trying to figure out WHY our S is doing something, WHAT they are thinking, WHETHER the 'clues' mean what we think they mean . . .H being focused on ME (rather than his own selfish self, or his, ick, anger) can only be a Good Thing, no?

A bit more of the Respect/Worth reasoning: Consider that every time H thought a neg thing about me, my side of the Worth scale went down a notch and, at the same time (b/c they are intrinsicly linked), H's side went up a notch. "She's out of shape" click "She's no fun" click "She's not interesting" click "She doesn't love me enough" click "she doesn't understand my financial stresses" click click . . . until THUD my side of the scale hits lowest point & H's side is as far up as it can go. THAT's when he looks (down) at me & was able to have the thought that: I deserve so much more/better than her. and was able to make the decision that "D is the only thing to do" altho "gee, I hate to hurt her, poor thing". There's noooo respect. Since then - altho DBing worked wonderfully for the most part - b/c of OUR (unique?) sitch/emotions/characters, H has gone from feeling pity for me to resentment, disgust, ANGER & contempt for all that I am & all I have done post-DBing. It has allowed him to continue NOT respecting me, and to see me as Weak & unworthy of him.

To (Dobson) get my M back on track, I need to put a stop to the DISrespect. Then I need to get my Worth increased. Since a thing's (person's) Worth increases exponentially with the amount it is desired (by others) & the cost to attain it, H needs to not only think/feel/know that I'm not his to pick up off the floor if/when he chooses (NOT!) but that he will have to WORK to gain my attention. (Think: Did you want the (easy) person who was wanting YOU, or did you want the cheerleader/jock who EVERYONE thought was "the bomb"? If you do ebay/auctions: How much more (time, effort, money) are you willing to invest in something when you think it might be snatched out from under your nose by another bidder?) Interesting stuff.


PS - Donna, EVERYTHING can be expedited w/a little $$.

[C_K]

j

I wholeheartedly agree with every thing I have been reading lately on your thread.
My W is still wrapped up in her A with OM but I know she is looking back as well , She sees a Man that is confident , has let her go , looking after his kids and himself ( Ive lost 13 Kgs = 28 Lbs ) and is now happy.
Now if at some stage she wants back in its going to be interesting as I am not where I was 6 , 3 or even 1 month ago.

I know its going to go well for you and you will build yourself a happy successful life no matter what.

Dave

[Reincarnated]

Ditto :0)

Have you seen the thread over with TJ (hope the initals are right). Homer's book is the title...

Interesting stuff/take on the GAL part of the plan...but it plays to the whole respect piece. I screwed that up tonight, btw--got caught in a white lie, and got that "look" from him, like that must be the real me all of the time and he can't ever forgive anything. (Its over on my thread)

OK, when can we call a do-over?

[Nomopo]

It's been more than 24 hours and you're on page 6. Are you applying the new "lucky to have me" strategy to us too?

[stillme]

LOL. YOu guys DO "have me"! I pop on here at all odd hours, just to at least lurk & check up on y'all.

(And pg.6??? I don't know what you're counter is doing, but I think I have more threads to a page than yours. Point taken, tho.)

Let's see. . .

Plan still in effect. Also got the Homer e-bk (Thanks TJ!!) & am working my way thru that as well. Interesting stuff.

Yest. H called twice: Once to ask if he could (already) change w/the July-schedule we just set b/c of his mom's changed dates to visit. I had to tell him I had plans to be away during the time he wanted to change (Go figure, THAT's the wk he needs to change, huh?) . . . but it was business-like & we compromised. The other time he called he said he'd been invited by [hospital work-people] to a dinner/reception thing & since he was supposed to p/u the kids in the afternoon, would I mind if he didn't come til late eve. I (again) had to tell him I had plans to go out at 6;30. He asked "So, what's the latest I would have to pick them up?" Me: Umm, 6:00. So he asked if I had someone who could come watch the kids for 2 hrs or so until he got here, and I said I could. He thanked me; I said he was welcome, and that was that.

We also talked about the 'who's gonna watch the kids Thurs night' issue. (It was 'my' night; I had plans to go out at 7pm, but he was working 4:30-9:30...) I said I'd figure something out (Kids ended up playing at S's friends & spending the night. So, everyone's happy.)

GRRRRRR!!!

Okay. So I just got interrupted in my posting to make some phone calls about the Pilates (w/friends) for this morn . . . then the kids come in from their o'night. . . and the mom brings me outside & says "Do you know you're tire is flat?" Ugh. Totally pancake flat. So mom offers her H's help but he's at the gym and she doesn't een know if he knows how to jack up a car. (I've tried it before & just don't have the strength for the most part. You should'a seen me jumping on the dang whatchcallit thing that takes the lug nuts off...) Neighbor guy would help me (tho he's not 'mechanical' either) put on the spare so I can tote it all to the tire place - BUT H is on his way over (He'd said this in our yest. phone convo.) to mow the lawn! So I called him (got his VM) & said "I'd like to ask a favor" (explained the flat tire) "If you could help me jack the car up & get the spare on, I'll take it to the tire place to be fixed. If this is not good for you, I understand & I'll take care of it myself." He called back imm. & (pretty friendly voice, tho tired?) said he would be here in 5min w/his tire-plug kit & he'd take care of it b/f he mowed the lawn.

So, my best laid plans (to be out of the house & busy-ness) got jacked w/again. But it's all Good. More to post later (Went out w/Girls last night; plans for today; plans for tonight...)

Checkin' in later.

(HA! You wanted to hear from me? You don't know WHAT you're asking.)

[L21959]

Still --

What's up?? Nomopo...you just made me laugh out loud!

L

[Reincarnated]

J,
I get stuck in that spot too, sometimes. We've had roles in our household for a while, and even though I can figure out how to do most of it myself (not all), some of it I just can't do because I'm not tall or strong enough.
Amazing, the satisfaction you can get from struggling--and winning--against a stubborn jar lid, though :0)

Great to hear you are out and about...

[stillme]

H just plugged both the hole in the pancake-tire AND the wood-screw in another tire (damm new construction up the street!) Dynamics were weirdly diff. I popped in & outside; I said I would def. stop using my fav. dirt-road cut-thru short-cut home, but he said it wasn't that - it was the new construction and the, um, careless workers (So I'm not to blame for everything in the word, apparently). Small talk a time or two. I even offered him some ice water, but he said he was about to get nasty hot & sweaty (mowing) so "don't bother, but thanks". Cme inside to tell me tires were done; told me tires were on the last 20% of use anyway & where the best places to check on new ones would be & why. I said those were the 2 places I'd been planning on going to (agreeing). He played w/kids; we talked about D's black eye (She has no idea where it came from, lol) & contacting her agency (She's done local modeling, but not since Jan.) and about me getting S invlved in it as well. (Sheesh! Couldn't do all that w/a "real" job, now can I?) Anyway, all was light & weirdly-friendly. I was eating a b'fast thing & drinking my coffee. H seemed to linger, then left to do the lawn but popped right back inside w/talk about more specifically when his boat engine would be ready to be picked up... THEN he popped back in again & said "You're all set to go." (referring to, last he knew, that I had a P.session to teach at 10am) I said, "Thanks. But even b/f I saw the tire prob. the day's plans got pushed back a bit."

So, kids & I are off in a few to do errands then to friend's house to play then to other friend's where first-friend, she & 2 others are starting a P.class. Made diff. P.flyers to leave at the (more affluent) neighborhoods around where friend(s) live (Think: Tiger Woods - and now Oprah - neighborhoods). Busy, busy.

Going out w/Friend A +4 others tonight "carousing" (HA! I like that word) at 6:30.

Oh, last night just as girls & I were pulling into the Hard Rock Hotel my cell rings & it's a friend of H's from TX who H has apparently not talked to in a VERY long time. I gave him the "You can contact H thru his cell, etc." & he says, "ohhhhh, I had no idea" I kept it light & then, as we walked towards the front doors, the music from some band playing in the lobby was so loud I couldn't hear, and when he asked what the noise was, I (unthinking) said "Oh, it's the Hard Rock Hotel!" -- So, (assuming), he called H & (may have) passed on where I was last night. Tho, not a Bad Thing as it's def. a 180-type place and a Not-the-Usual thing I would do. LOL. (Girls & I spent sev. hrs at The Kitchen eating & drinking: mine was a Funky Cold Medina! Yumm. LOL.)

more later.