chocolateeyes I just read the latest posts and I am sorry it had to come to this.
It is good to see the "disrespect is over" chocolateeyes operating.
I have to agree with I really don't want to get into a debate with you on it, but refer to Harley and Glass and others about intervention techniques and rationales. combined with LFL opinions and NOP's help.
You and others helping you, have my deepest respect.
I agree that she is acting like an addict, absolutely.
Confrontation and exposure is the not the only way to go, but if you want to use that strategy to try to save your M, that is one way to go.
But, whether or not some recommend it, I think that continuting to involve your Ds in the marital issues between you and W, whether they involve OM or otherwise, is very damaging to them, even if they are 18 and 20. Simple exposure is one thing. Repeated exposure and discussion is just not fair to them. It is TRAUMATIC. Don't put them in the position of having to take sides to love their father properly.
But, anyway, one point I was trying to make is that you are contradicting yourself -- you say you are throwing in the towel, that you do not want to save your M. In that case, the confrontation and exposure with respect to the in-laws and/or OM's parents are at best pointless, at worst merely vindictive.
If in fact you are still trying to save your M, then own that and quit saying you are throwing in the towel. You really aren't. So, get a grip, don't lapse back into the "don't give a sh*t" excuse to cover your behavior. Keep trying until you are Done with a capital D. When you get to that point, there will unmistakable peace and clarity, along with relief, and no drama about it.
In the meantime, there is still a lot of potential for things working out for your M. And, there is even more potential for you to come out the other side much better than you dreamed possible, no matter what happens. Keep the focus on YOU, treating yourself well, enforcing your boundaries, respecting yourself, getting happy on your own. I certainly understand if part of this is setting a boundary when it comes to participating in maintaining appearances to keep W and OM comfy. Expose and confront if you must, but keep it simple and direct. You don't need ongoing drama and fanfare around it. It is not the problem in your M, it ending will not fix your M, you cannot control it, only yourself. So, focus on YOU.
I know it is hard right now, but the Choc of a couple of days ago was really sounding great. I think you'll see him again pretty darn soon too.
I think I get was OT is saying. The decision to D shouldn't be made from feelings of anger or revenge, no matter how justified those feelings may be. I'm not a psychology expert, but I do know that decisions made in anger will usually haunt the person afterwards. Even people who are as sure as they can be that D is the right thing still struggle with doubts afterwards from time to time. You have hiked the Andes my man, don't let this last mountain, no matter how jagged or cold or high it is, defeat you. Surely the MAN who was able to sustain years of neglect from his W can hold out a little longer and not let some invader chase him out. Sorry for the lame analogies, I'm full of them.
One thing to consider, and this may sound weird, is that once you go down the road of thinking about D, you also have to think about life after D. Who do you want to be post-D? A man saddled with doubts about his previous M, or a man with a clear conscience. You may already be a man with a clear conscience, only you can decide that.
As for your previous reply, I will say you have made REPEATED references to the "fetching MrsChoc." Again, just think, there may be a time when she will wake up and come at you with every "trick" (not necessarily malicious or contrived) in the book. I don't know about you, but I've only had that happen to me once in my life, and we all know what happened there. I just hope you are mentally prepared to see that for what it is, either an honest attempt to get back in your good graces, or a dishonest attempt to mollify you to gain time. I'm not wise enough to tell the difference, perhaps others here are.
Best wishes as always, Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Choc .... Nopkins is right, all cheaters lie. I think the decision to take a stand, expose to her family, make her move, are perfectly understandable. She needs to really, really, really see what she is losing.
However. You were willing to give her a chance, before. You're angry now. Again, totally understandable. But her brain is in a mess. Just like you wouldn't hold someone who is mentally impaired as responsible for a crime as someone totally clear-headed, her lies right now are not her being sane. Make her live with her parents. Pay for her stuff. And then see what happens if her brain clears, and she is actually able to make some choices.
Decisions made in the throes of any wild feelings .... hurt, anger, lust .... usually don't last.
I think you're a really good man, Choc, and I've been amazed at your growth in such a short time. Whatever happens, you'll be proud of the man you see in the mirror. I wish you all the best.
I'm so sorry it's come down to this for you, Choc. However, you should remember that all the personal growth you are experiencing by dealing with this ordeal like the man all of us here always knew you had the potential to be will always be with you. Unfortunately for your W, the opposite will be true for her. I feel sorry for her when I think about the kind of cr*p relationship she will have if she ends up with the OM. I can hear her pathetic cries of fusion already "I gave up my family life, a loving H and violated my values for you, please love me enough to make it worthwhile."
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Hey. Amazing what happens when you move off center, isn't it?
I don't blame you one WHIT for your anger, etc., etc. And even if you want to be pissed, and be bound and determined to end it all... don't blame you. Do what you need to do.
I think the moves you are making regarding her finances are spot on. If anyone leaves, it SHOULD be her.
Find a good attorney. Get some really good advice, in terms of your finances and your kids. Get her out of the house, and go dark.
And then move very, very slowly. For six months. Get yourself to a very good shrink and work through that bitterness and anger. That's what you are feeling, you know.
But... do NOT sign on the dotted line... until that anger is gone. Seriously. If you do, you do... there is no saying that somewhere down the road the two of you couldn't get back together (and I hear you thinking... yeah RIGHT... whatEVER).
You are more in control of your M than you ever have been, probably in all the time you've been married. I know it doesn't FEEL that way, but you are.
I'm going to throw my hat into NOP's ring with the advice he is giving you... and I know you don't want to hear that... not right now. So pretned I didn't say it.
I'm also going to encourage you to maybe take OT's advice... I don't know... in a FEW weeks... wander on over to the DB/DR threads... take a look around... {shrug}. If not... cool.
Everything is one day at a time, right now, buddy. Work out. Get that anger flowing OUT of you...
But then, if you don't want to... and you feel like telling me to jump off a cliff... I can handle that, too. Please do. Vent. As Shrek says... "Better Out that In, is what I always say."
I actually agree with everything you said. As of this morning, this, their moving day that they are all excited about, I told my daughters that I would only let them know what they wanted to know, and that it was time for me to stop involving them. They needed to know, as part of the exposure circle of adults, but then I just need to be here for them when they have specific questions.
Sympathetic two-hand shoulder squeeze to you, my good man. I was afraid the feelings you're feeling right now were gonna surface sooner or later, having BTDT. Blackfoot, burgbud, Heywyre, TTHO, FFW, thatguy et all can attest. They really suck. That hole in your stomach while you feel a snowballing lack of respect for Mrs. Choc building towards disgust.
Try not to lose that love you have deep down for her man, as shown in your posts. There is a good woman buried somewhere under all of that mess who is confused and more than scared, although her active conscience is not aware of this part of her just yet.
But the day will come.
The more she realizes what she will be losing as you methodically start taking your love and support away from her and compares it to what she will be gaining with OM the more that fear will start to awaken her.
NOPkins and the infidelity experts out there IRL are spot on. All cheaters lie. Even the most moral upright Christians who no one would ever suspect in a billion years would act with such willful deceit lie.
The chemicals drive her or him to risk literally everything for an OP who is sometimes a complete lost cause, like a drug addict, abusive monster, or, it seems more and more in the media these days, even to the point of a young high school or even junior high school and, yuck, grade school boy or girl.
I just shake my head at these sometimes gorgeous young teachers who have a great husband, house, and little ones who ruin their entire life and crush the lives of their families over the attentions of a 14, 15, 16 year old boy. Not to mention their own self-respect and reputations as they lose their good jobs, are shunned by friends and neighbors, and are even willing to risk being thrown in prison (twice in the case of Mary Jo Liturno).
Forget opiates. Forget nicotine. Forget alcohol. IMO these chemicals are microgram for microgram the single most (or collectively) powerful brain-altering chemicals in human existence.
Mrs. Choc has issues that are beyond you and try not to hate her for them. For some reason she needs the "buzz" of external validation to make her feel good about herself.
Age comments, tummy tucks, BMWs, belly shirts, associating with much younger people and wanting to fit in or at least relive some care-free days of youth. Denial.
That kind of behavior pretty much flags a person as having no real core identity in terms of self-esteem and inner directedness and inner guidance that comes from a place of being a secure-with-yourself person.
It's why I, like Cobra among others, pretty much don't believe in this whole "disease" BS proffered by some way more educated than myself "pros" as they describe that label "Mid Life Crisis."
Nuh uh. I might be "diagnosed" as having this MLC "disease" this very minute from the symptomatic behavior currently going on in my life but I find such fobbing off of my own responsibility on to some phony convenient illness to be an incredibly weak, foolish, passive, and disgusting reaction.
Boo hoo, I'm a victim. I'm a victim. Boo hoo.
No, I lost my purpose and path. My future as I once had envisioned it is now dust blowing in the wind. I have to build a new one now. Kinda like what Deida refers to in his writings. I firmly believe that OP who know EXACTLY what they want out of life and are on that "path" or passion, and refuse to let OP knock them off it, will never fall "victim" to a so-called MLC. They are certain and MLC=uncertainty.
Bringing this back round to Mrs. Choc. She probably has this same uncertainty.
It's probably what's causing her to lie to you and your family. She probably doesn't want to but the addict can't listen to self or others since there is no fixed, secure core of identity within her. She seems to have attached finding her own idenity through OM. And that's a recipe for disaster, as we already know.
You've both unwittingly frozen each other out emotionally for years and something had to give IMO. In a weird way it had to happen and one of you had to make the first move.
She did something to break the frost first unfortunately. I think it could have just as easily been you if perhaps you were less inclined in your faith in God, your sense of your own morality, and your inert, yet steady dimly burning love for Mrs. Choc.
Whatever the case, the life you two were leading: no kisses, no touching, no sex, no sitting next to each other, passing like ships? was unsustainable. Something big was going to hit the reset button and she found it. Whether she felt neglected by you and wanted to test you hard to get you to be jealous (which she even said bothered her about you) and unwittingly crossed the line or gave an opening to OM out of a self-loathing that you didn't feel her worthy enough to pursue.
Don't get me wrong, she is equally to blame. The high maintenance as you say, the dodging of your kisses when you would try, the not pursuing you for years as well to make you feel desirable. The terrible conflict avoidance so as not to address your R problems before they reached the A level.
And despite it all you've been a good dad and provider without finding the need to carry on with an OW for your "needs."
Don't give up hope just yet, Choc. You have a lot of years together and those brown eyes to carry on your heritage. Do take away what's enabling her to continue disrespecting your R and herself.
But don't forget that love we've seen from your posts.
There is an infidelity professional out there on the web. Not many of them even want to touch this stuff. But blackfoot pointed me to him way back when I first started posting and the Dr. has a lot of useful information. Not going to link out of respect for MWD but in my opinion infidelity is a real monster and very few professionals are willing to focus their entire careers on this single scariest R killer. Just Google "Dr. Huizenga". I have no ties nor do I back anything he says. It's just a useful reference on breaking free from how you're feeling and might help you understand what you're going through Choc.
Hang in There Brother. Hold tight. We said it was gonna be a rollercoaster and you're click-clacking slowly up another really big drop. If you can keep hold of yourself and your rage Mrs. Choc will one day see how you handled all of this with patience and realize what a man she had. Whether you work it out or whether you decide to let her go. Just try and be in the position to have both options for now.
In my own case, I think the best reaction I had in the whole thing was to say, "I accept the way you feel about me (not in love anymore), even if I don't understand it. But I'm not going to beg or plead. If you don't want me then I will find another F who thinks I'm worth keeping."
And I left a few weeks after the bomb. LFL is right. If my life weren't so tied down I would have left that very day. No way in hell could I live with a woman I still deeply loved who didn't want me around. Those weeks of coldness were enough to make my self-respect throttle me and kick my own azz to vanish and go dark, which I did.
And I think my recognizing her feelings without going into a rage is what caused her to test my waters 7 months later. I like to believe my reaction earned at least a little respect from her, which I'm pretty sure it did, judging from her attempts to engage me months later with a few terms of endearment.
But, like LG, you are the rare ones. I just read recently on MSN where 60% of the cheaters believe they are getting away with their infidelity and a whopping 94% of the ones being cheated on are unaware of their SO's affair. You've both managed to be in that rare 6% to find out in media res. A small victory but a victory in a position where everything feels like defeat.
Again, hang on to the rollercoaster lap bar. I'm glad you're staying and letting her be accountable for her own housing and bills. Inform her that no way in hell are you going to continue to subsidize her immature and immoral behavior.
It will be kinda hard for her to pay a $695 monthly car lease on $600 monthly income. And I'd wager OM already feels more than a little insecure you've proven yourself to be a better family provider than he is. I'm sure that sticks in his self-esteem craw nicely.
Ain't a whole lotta commissions or margins in the gym trainer biz, eh, choco? I think we call that bad verticality and limited scaleability IRL.
finally, as I like to say to OP IRL debating a major life change, and what I would say to Mrs. Choc if I had the chance:
"If you can't pay the fare, better damned well not take the ride."
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
Here is one of the top 5 most important things I took away from my D.
When it was all over, the only things I regreted were the times I lost control of my emotions.
Your anger is justified. You should not ignore it, nor suppress it, but you must control and channel it in the right directions. You NEED help to do that.
Her Lies are a good thing, as ironic as that sounds. She is lying out of fear. Can your understand that? Can you make use of it? Im telling you, you can, if you allow help. Choc, I couldnt stand the MC we had, cause her efforts were rudimentary, half understood, and transparant IMO. I would have gladly paid NOP, to help keep me centered. Listen to him. You dont have to like it. You just have to do it.
The only thing you really need to worry about right now is you. Get rid of the Beemer. Break the lease, swap the lease, sell it, whatever it takes. Knocking off that outstanding balance, even if you eat a few grand will do wonders for your FICO. There are options and help. When my sitch happened, I had a long chat with myself, that no matter what happened, no matter what I felt, NOTHING was more important then my FICO. NOTHING. I had my reasons for my financial choices the whole R, I would stick my middle finger in imaginary OP gun barrel and dare them to pull it, before I changed them. It was really really hard. Everything is reallly really hard for you right now. Somewhere underneath there is a voice of reason talking to you and hearing what must be done, but hurts worse then being driven over with a asphalt smoother.
OT is still right. OM is not the problem. In fact were you not in the Sh!t, you would see how ridiculous her warped perception and attraction for him are. The sooner you can see the ridiculousness of it, the better for everyone.
The plan was, point right at the elephant, matter of factly call it and its big pile of Stinking Sh1t what they are, then hand her a shovel. Corri was right, you have too much opportunity to learn to many important parts of life, to sign the papers yet. Your not a man of steel yet, right now you are a man of hissing sputtering dross. Give your W the opportunity to hammer on you some more, till you are a flexible, sharp and tempered sword that can cut thru the heaviest armor with nary a scratch.
Focus on you. Examine every aspect of your life you want to improve.
Come here. Rage at her, HERE. yell at us... or me at least. Vent. HERE. and then be prepared for and greet her hammer blows, untill they merely make you ring like a tuning fork of your true inner self.
You have every right, and opportunity and ability to D. Noone will fault you. That choice and ability is not going anywhere. For the moment, keep it for you. A man is expected to keep his word. Choose them carefully. Use them rarely.
The Beatles With a Little Help From My Friends
A little help from my friends What would you think if I sang out of tune, Would you stand up and walk out on me. Lend me your ears and I'll sing you a song, And I'll try not to sing out of key. I get by with a little help from my friends, I get high with a little help from my friends, Going to try with a little help from my friends. What do I do when my love is away. (Does it worry you to be alone) How do I feel by the end of the day (Are you sad because you're on your own) No I get by with a little help from my friends, Do you need anybody, I need somebody to love. Could it be anybody I want somebody to love. Would you believe in a love at first sight, Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time. What do you see when you turn out the light, I can't tell you, but I know it's mine. Oh I get by with a little help from my friends, Do you need anybody, I just need somebody to love, Could it be anybody, I want somebody to love. I get by with a little help from my friends, Yes I get by with a little help from my friends, With a little help from my friends.
Get a plan choco. Stick to the plan. The only way thru the storm is straight on. At the end of the day, float or founder, you are a man, and your choices are yours.
I truly am feeling your pain - as I am typing right now, I am experiencing heart palpatations which happens to me when I am under high stress. I first had this happen on a cold, sleeting night in February when my W was making phone calls to OM. (I did have a series of EKG and treadmill tests and my heart is fine - I am learning how to apply the relaxation response to these situations).
On Saturday night, for the first time, I started halfway considering the option of me filing for D, but I spoke with a member of my church who has worked as a counselor, and I realized in my spiritual heart (not my flittering physical one) that I [and my W] need to go through the next months for a reason that we may not fully understand right now.
I can completely empathize with what your are dealing with. One healthy thing that I did last week while the OM was staying with my W, was go out and purchase one of those plastic foam water noodles that is about 3 inches in diameter. I cut it down to a length of a baseball bat and whenever I felt anger and rage building up, I swung it at an inflated exercise ball I have. Each time I hit the ball, I would also verbally shout words that needed to be expressed too. This has helped me channel anger out physically, and keep me in a healthier place.
Last evening, I had an experience where I felt circumstances had been arranged "from above" to help me. I had attended yoga class with about 7 other students. As I was about to leave one of the class members asked our teacher if she would like to grab a cup of tea across the street. My yoga teacher then asked me and another guy who I did not know, if we would like to go too. We got a booth at the coffee house and shortly after we sat down, one of the students who had not seen me in months asked how my W and I were doing. I told them about my separation and what has been going on, and they all listened and gave me some supportive encouragement which helped me feel better. Then the guy who I had never met before, completely opened up. He told me that he has been married for 30 years and it is better than ever right now, but that he had "slipped" a few times in the past. He shared how years ago, he had met another woman, and he was so certain that she was his true soulmate that he left his W in a the most blazing bridge-burning manner that all his friends and relatives were shocked. He described how he was postive he had done the right thing, and he was going forward with a new and exciting life. Then he said, little by little, he would discover a new door opening within the OW, and a little bit more of this OW's inner aspects were revealed to him. Over time he found himself thinking more and more about his W, and her good traits. Months went by, but he was beginning to rethink things, and he could not believe, and he still wonders, how could my W take me back? He said he still finds it hard to believe that he is fortunate enough to be back with her. This is a true story, and his retelling of it to me, with candle light reflecting on his face and eyes, infused me with much hope.
I am in awe of how much wisdom and experience-based advice people on this SSM board have been providing you and I and others. Let us support each other as we go forward in the next weeks and months. I believe in you as I believe in myself.
Hang tough!
LG
Me 46 WAW 45 M 21 yrs
WAW: "I need to be alone" 12/06 W moves out 3/07 Mediation finalized 08/08
