You mentioned that she was deleting messages. But she's also sending new ones. Is she deleting those too?
I don't even understand how you're able to see her text messages unless you're grabbing her phone on the sly. That's how clueless I am, and it sounds like she is too.
I am a little torn on whether to confront the OM or get into counseling ASAP. I think the OM is not the real issue, and I think the “fog” or excitement of the OM is not the issue. The real problem is her FOO, which she is now admitting. The only way to seal the door on the OM is for your W to realize what she is doing and why, and therefore why she does not need this other guy.
Usually that is VERY difficult to do, but in the span of only a few days, you have got her to open up and start talking about some serious issues, all without anger on her part. I think it is extremely important that this open communication continue. If she gets mad, shuts down and runs, you will have a tough time, since she is naturally an avoider.
I think things are moving along quite nicely and much faster than I would have guessed. I think you should help her understand her confusion, which is natural. She is confused because she does not know herself and has been hiding from the world all these years. The way to help her see herself is to do exactly as you have been doing, let her watch you understand yourself and lay out your issues, fears, vulnerabilities, faults, etc. That will turn on the light for her. This other, younger man is nothing now than a source of giddy emotion for her. I stand by my prior comments and will guess that he is nothing more than an idiot, maybe a shrewd, manipulating idiot, but nothing to match the honesty, self assuredness (yes, you have shown great confidence) and maturity you have been displaying.
Her connection to your family is her vulnerability and you do need to capitalize on it. So she feels guilty if you bring up the kids and the family security. She should! I also bet she feels guilty because she may have experienced similar things in her childhood. If so, there’s another tool for you. She was once the victim of parents who did not support her or build her confidence, and now she is doing things to create anxiety in her kids, so she has become the perpetrator. That will make her feel guilty too, as it should!
When she says she does not like to talk about things, read that as code that she wants you to guide her through what bothers her, but she is too scared to do it herself. If she really did not want to talk about it she would not have brought it up and she would walk away when you mentioned it. Remember Happy Giant’s W? That was a woman who was really scared, so scared she could not and would not even think about her FOO.
Just be sure to address your issues so she cannot turn her guilt onto you and justify her continued affair. I like what Blackfoot says, that she believes her version of the truth. I would even go so far as to bet the OM believes he is doing the right thing too, in his warped version of the truth. That is the way it is when dysfunctional people are involved. Get a good counselor ASAP. One who is experienced and willing to explore FOO issues, in addition marriage issues.
Your W is looking to you for guidance, security and support. If she was so tied in to this OM, there is no way she would have talked to you for so long. She was in her “comfort” zone in her little setup with the OM. She is now seeing that was not so, and she is in a slight panic, trying to see who she should trust, you or the OM. I see the increased text massages and phone calls as evidence that you are stirring up a lot of thoughts in her, and as a possible sign of panic in the OM. After all, he’s just a dumb, inexperienced kid who made a really stupid mistake. Don’t panic over him, just set him straight. I’m curious to see how Nop recommends you do this. My only advice regarding that is to think about whether you should make her too mad, not out of concern that she is mad, but for the damage that could do to the communication that is going on right now.
Good stuff -- thanks. I'll profess, I'm not too much of a "FOO" guy, unless it comes with a nice side of good pork fried rice, but here's the tidbit I learned last night:
There is a 3rd influence at work here, beyond my sister-in-law's death to cancer at age 50 and our daughters moving out of our home. My wife is watching her parents, who live nearby and are now in their mid-80s (but healthy and active), constantly bicker at each other and fight, and she sees how sad it has made her father. (When I say "they bicker at each other," I mean "Her mom is horrible to her dad.") She loves her father very dearly, even tho he's horribly chauvinistic and doesn't recognize her accomplishments as he should (her favorite thing to bring up that her dad says: "Isn't Choc. doing a wonderful job with the kids?" She's like "Hello??? Who do you think stays HOME with them all day????!")
Anyway, she loves her parents, is a GREAT daughter and friend to them (she calls her mother EVERY SINGLE DAY), and they have been great to me as well. But she sees how her mom picks on her dad, and how her dad just takes it, and she's seen how unhappy it's made him. And I think sometimes she sees weakness in me, and wonders if she is going to be her mom, and me her dad, and maybe she could just do me a favor now and "let me go."
There -- how's THAT for FOO for ya??
Her parents -- and her whole family -- are NOTORIOUSLY non-physical-touch folks. Her dad gives her mom a kiss on the cheek sweetly when he leaves for work, when he comes home, and when they go to bed (we have vacationed together, sharing the same room, and have had a chance to see their bedtime rituals.). But otherwise, NO affection, no hand-holding, and certainly no PDAs.
This is what my wife grew up watching.
On top of all THAT, her mom is one of these old-school, Italian grandmothers, who tells you to "grin and bear it." Feeling down? "Clean your floors." Need to talk about what's bothering you? "Get over it and do your dishes." She is TOUGH TOUGH TOUGH, and although she has a tender side that she shows at times (esp. her grandkids), she RARELY, if ever, shows it to my father-in-law.
I heard from my H that one of the things that "clinched" him wanting a D was seeing his grandparents and the way they are and he doesn't want to end up like them. They are HORRIBLE!! Anyway, luckily I was able to show him we don't have to end up like that.
You do need to look at all the issues in your M and what is affecting what, but don't let all the garbage cover up the basics of just learning how to love each other and relate to each other again.
Me: 38 H: 35 S4, S5, S10 Bomb 01/07 Wanted D - nothing would change his mind Numerous A's prior to D bomb; EA prior/during D bomb Piecing 04/07 Deployed for a year 05/07 Still Piecing 2010 M 11 yrs 05/10
Well, I just called her (had to make some arrangements about our D18's graduation tonite), and at first she was VERY quiet, I asked her what was wrong, and then she pretty much blasted me. Blamed me for the timing of my "bomb" and that I had ruined our daughter's graduation day, and how my wife had worked 18 years to get her to this day, and now she feels tired and bitchy and grouchy, and she "is ready to jump off a bridge."
I apologized for the timing of the e-mail, but NOT for sending it, and told her that maybe SHE could have waited, but I couldn't. She said "Sometimes you need to think of someone other than yourself," and I said "Actually, I'm starting to think that I haven't thought of myself enough." And I also told her that I, for one, was NOT going to let my tiredness and my sadness affect my personality one whit around our daughter tonite, or around the rest of our kids either, and told her that I expected the same out of her.
"a", she's tired -- we were up till probably 4am talking, and she had to get up at 6. "b", I think she's feeling overwhelmed, and confused, and I think she probably got some blowback from OM today as well (I can only guess). He could either be telling her that he's disappointed that she backed down from a separation and made her feel like crap, or she could be feeling attracted to him today, thinking he is her "escape" from all of this, and that makes her feel like crap too, because she knows that's it's eventually going to tear our family apart.
I do think she may have depression problems, and I told the EAP person on the phone that that was one of my concerns.
Man, NOP told me today "Next, she is going to pick fights with you -- do not engage." Damn, he's good. Choc.
Technology and txt messaging: That's how clueless I am, and it sounds like she is too. Some things, I don't know about and wouldn't know where they were stored or who could read the messages.
I have to agree with Chrome and others that EA's can build through regular interactions.
Some people post the OM is out to attract Mrs. Choc. I lean toward the idea he started out just wanting to be helpful, and then both got hooked.
On another forum there are several stories of men rescuing women. At first the men want to just help, then it becomes an EA/PA. So, did OM start with the idea of just training your W and it progressed to an E/A.
If OM is a player/ego prone, MILF could be a motive.
BTW, I have read several EA stories connected to gyms. Bodies and hormones in action. That is what I see.
Choc. I am using what gets posted here to avoid some problems, fix some problems in my M. BB likes me to chase her but complains when I catch her. I am going to chase less and CATCH more.
One thing Mrs. Choc said about not being that worthy or something similar, BB also said to me yesterday.
We have this triple witching month that BB feels she is neglected. Mother's Day, Birthday, and Anniversary. I didn't used to play it up or make a big verbal fuss. I always did something appropriate for each day. BB felt neglected anyway. To her, someone always overlooked some detail of the day.
A couple of years ago I played up each day, now she tells me she isn't worth all the fuss. I said "so do something to [BE] worth the effort and attention."
FWIW; Classic example: It’s Friday and I am finally getting BB to go to Mother’s day dinner at Olive Garden. I don’t understand? No one paid enough attention to her and now it takes a week of invitations to get the job done.???????
(Maybe I need to be Jeff Foxworthy and say/ask; Jeatyet? (A common inquiry when mealtime draws nigh. "Did you eat yet? “ and just say “get’n the truk, wees a goin to that olive place.”)
Back to your situation; If everyone is doting over your W and she feels unworthy somehow, tell her to do something to be worthy.
I think the old sayings "give too much to a person, they get spoiled." (and) "Something that is worked for and earned is appreciated more than something gained to easily," applies.
If everyone is doting over your W and she feels unworthy somehow, tell her to do something to be worthy.
Man, that's good. I'm gonna use that.
Yes, I do think we've both tried to overplease, Lou. It "feeds the beast," and only raises the expectations of what you have to do the next time, and creates a sense of entitlement in the recipient anyway. I want to learn to better master the casual "Oh. I thought you would have enjoyed that, I'm sorry." and go about my business.
BB and Mrs. Choc -- now THERE'S a fine couple o' coconuts.
One difference for sure Choc, BB wants a Hummer, not a BMW.
Another difference is I offered to buy BB a older Honda CRV and she said she wanted one with (long laundry list and 2007) so I said she better get a paper route to pay for it.
Yea, I am cheap. How about us two doing lunch at Costco? I will pay. Quarter pound Kosher hot dog and drink. Only $1.50 each.
About Mrs. Choc's BMW, Gee I liked NOP's “lose it” but never did anything like that before. I did the I will look with you up to this amount, but any more money for a car is going to come from her working more hours. BB only wanted to work ½ time, so she never got her dream ride. Just as well, she/we only drive her car 4K a year. Depreciation is her biggest expense, that and tires that rot from the sun shining on them.
What I would do is let your W (S) know finances are not so great and her acting out is mucking up your ability to be the pack leader/head of the household, ASAP.
If she mends her ways, maybe that will register in her mind that she needs to get off her pedestal/high horse and do some grunt work, like you are doing.
About “you” messing up D18 graduation, just anger from Mrs. Choc being exposed.
WTG Choc. I am impressed with all you are doing and keeping under control.
"a", she's tired -- we were up till probably 4am talking, and she had to get up at 6. "b", I think she's feeling overwhelmed, and confused, and I think she probably got some blowback from OM today as well (I can only guess). He could either be telling her that he's disappointed that she backed down from a separation and made her feel like crap, or she could be feeling attracted to him today, thinking he is her "escape" from all of this, and that makes her feel like crap too, because she knows that's it's eventually going to tear our family apart.
I do think she may have depression problems, and I told the EAP person on the phone that that was one of my concerns.
Man, NOP told me today "Next, she is going to pick fights with you -- do not engage." Damn, he's good. Choc.
So are you, actually. I think your analysis is flawless. Listen to Nop, and don't back down.
