So, all this talk about Mrs. Choc, potentially having some type of EA, etc is a witch hunt? She just wants to be chased, admired, or whatever? It could be just that.
It is still too much like playing with matches for me.
Do I blow this off as her just getting out to blow off some steam and enjoy some time with friends, or should I be upset? I would NEVER come home two hours later than she expected ME from something, without calling. I sometimes go out for beers after my baseball league stuff, but the latest I've come home is 10 or 11, and even then, if it's going to be significantly later than what she was expecting, I call
Ok so you give her what you want to receive, respect and she gives you what she wants, juicing you up on the emotional drama. I have a question for you. Can you imagine Mrs. Nop doing what your W did? How about HP, or GEL or Karen?
When I was 21 and had an underdrinking age girlfriend, we went someplace she could get into. there are lots of 18andover places to drink and have a Bday. I sure didnt exclude her, or have her drop her mom off to hang out with us.
You have no boundaries, Choco. I think its been pretty well determined that lack of boundaries is neither attractive, nor engenders respect. If you did at the very most she would have asked and you would have said sure after you find a babysitter for the other kids so we can both go. There is no reason you couldnt join bday boy later, if the games were done by 8:30.
What I DON'T know, is it better if I just ignore it (because she's already shown, she HATES it when I don't get jealous) and not feed that beast, or is it better if I confront her with it.
How can you not know this? When I first started posting here we talked about jealousy and what protection, and cherishing looks and feels like to a woman. The way you are behaving is not it. What beast? the beast where she wants to feel like you care about her? That she has value to you? That her being your W is important?
They all hang out together, and it was as "Hey, Mrs. Choc., come out with us on Wednesday for Joe's 21st, it'll be fun."
Man I use this remark so much, it pretty much works every time. Ive even recommended it here to guys as a way of leading without supplicating. Choco, I go to TARGET, and use a variation of this, to have some company for the evening on a boring hump day.
But what if I don't care? Is your advice still the same, so that I can feel better about myself?
I honestly have zero romantic attraction to her anymore. She inconvenienced me last nite, as it was difficult to sleep until I knew she was home safe, so that plus the lack of respect by no-phone-call pissed me off. But I did not care one whit about how she feels about any of these other, younger guys.
I'm not saying that's right or wrong, or even healthy, but it's just how I feel.
If you dont care, then why dont you D her? Because she has hurt you and you want to hurt her back. She should leave you then. You flat out said you want her to me miserable. Why shouldnt she go find someone who will make her feel good?
But the only thing you asked for was the right thing to say to her in this situation. There is no right thing to say IN ANY SITUATION. again. We have talked so much about intent, and body language. Ive said it a dozen ways a dozen times. NOP just said it within the past month. Masculinity self manifests. There are no right words for this situation, because this situation is proof that her respect and your boundaries are non existant. There is nothing you can say to have a 1 day fix. I will say this though. When you tell a woman you dont care about OM, or push her verbally or with your actions towards another man, you are not cherishing her or protecting her. tending the fences. AND she will hate you for it.
Still, with that all being said, I do appreciate your unique perspective, and I am proceeding with EVERYTHING with the understanding that I'm taking a risk that my wife could have an affair. But that's HER choice, not mine. She has known for a long time what my needs are, and has chosen to ignore them. She's gone so far as to tell me why she does this (push me away), that she wishes she WASN'T like this, and that she promises not to BE like this, ever again.
Then she does it.
I just need to figure out a way to leave her Choice to her, but to still feel OK about my own integrity in the process. You think you are being differentiated, but you are not treating her like a woman needs to be. Personally your W reminds me a lot of LFL. You may say say that is her choice and it is, but thats not going to stop the pain and destruction thats going to engulf you.
"Hey, glad you had a good time, but next time I'd appreciate a phone call if you're going to be that late. I was concerned." is perfect This is not a good reply. its a push, and its a lie. if you want to maintain your integrity thru this, and truly want to remove culpability from your shoulders then you will be direct and honest, about YOU.
I can't help but think Mrs. Choc likes to be chased and maybe some day someone is going to catch her. Then what are you going to do?
Let him catch her. Or -- more accurately -- tell her something like "I love you, and I still think God put us together for a reason, and that we had something special. So don't misunderstand me -- I'd like you to stay with me. But I will not beg for that, and I will not even allow you to choose that if it means that we remain in the sexless, affectionless marriage that we've been in for most of the past 20 years."
This hoped for conversation where she suddenly realizes you are the man for her, and makes a choice, is a pipe dream. again, your expecting from her what you are unable to do yourself. If/when she leaves your M, and 98% of the time women have someone else when they leave, because of your emotional neglect, she wont give a flying pig whether or not you want her to stay, and she certainly wont care about having sex with you when she has someone else she can have sex with with no emotional grittiness to deal with. What will happen is she will let you know exactly how you have abandoned, neglected, failed, and hurt her all these years. You have this idea, desire, want for her to choose you, all whilst you are pushing her away. Get real Choco. Im truly saying this as your friend. I wish I would have had a friend to say this to me. Mayhaps my arrogance and intractability would have precluded me from understanding much as yours is.
that when you love someone, you're told of their intense pain and have seen it up-close, and you've PROMISED that it (intentionally turning away, and becoming affection-less) wouldn't happen again, you DON'T just blow that off if you truly love the person, and care about them, and can continue to see signs of their pain daily.
So why do you put up with her emotional abuse of you? Whoes fault is that? What is stopping you from being proactive about doing what it will take to proactively address this, even if it means D her? She is being proactive about getting what she needs.
I find this sad.
You have a woman who, based on the assumption that she has been faithful too you for the past 20 years, has stuck by you while you have given her no reason to be attracted or feel romantic attraction to you. You have 4 children that are also not motivation enough for you to step up and do and say the radically honest things to her, that you expect her to do and say to you. Now I will admit that I did the exact same relational swapping that you are doing to your W, with x, but damn I would have been seriously impressed with 1 year of fortitude and ability to withstand the emotional starvation and do nothingness that you have subjected yours too for at the very minimum 3 years. You really have a woman, and a family, worth it. shrug.
Your feelings are screaming at you to do something, take some action, and you are ignoring them, stuffing them, not aware of them, dont know what to do about them. They will continue to talk to you louder and louder untill even your dreams are vividly telling you of the impending danger.
1. Both spouses agree there is a problem, and agree to work on it, together;
There is the answer to your question. Youve had it in you all along.
You tell your wife, 'we have a serious problem. Our marriage is on the verge of failing.
That is not a question.
If you agree with me, that there is a problem, then we have to come to a joint decision on whether to deal with it, or end it. its time we do something about it. If you disagree with me, that there is a problem, then there is nothing to talk about, and I begin what needs to be done.'
or you can continue to watch others make important decisions about your life.
I wont wish you luck Choco, cause its gonna take a butt load of hard work, no matter which way you go.
Choc, Just a reminder here...we are all concerned for you, your marriage, as well as your W, who is struggling...but let's not overlook the effect your W's behavior may be having on your young adult daughters, who are blooming right now. It's psychologically very hard to have a mother who is competing for attention. Your girls will be confused and it will effect their self esteem. They may even become guilt ridden about developing and blossoming, which would be such a shame...all girls need their time in the sun. If you allow your W's MLC/narcissistic traits to spiral out of control, your girls will be hurt. Just something else to consider....
So, all this talk about Mrs. Choc, potentially having some type of EA, etc is a witch hunt? She just wants to be chased, admired, or whatever? It could be just that.
It is still too much like playing with matches for me.
Lou
Lou,
I think what I'm trying to say -- and what NOP would concur -- is that this may very well be (I would say "definitely is") my wife just looking for some MLC validation for her beauty and her youthfulness, that's NOT out looking for an affair.
But that women in this mindset are RIPE for an EA or even a PA if they then get that validation from someone other than her husband.
Also, SHE may not have it on her mind, but the young men around her probably DO.
Choc wrote: ================================================ I think what I'm trying to say -- and what NOP would concur -- is that this may very well be (I would say "definitely is") my wife just looking for some MLC validation for her beauty and her youthfulness, that's NOT out looking for an affair. ================================================
I am very short on time today, but I will be honest but brief.
She is in an environment FULL of people that do little other than look at their muscles in the mirror and try new lines on the opposite sex.
I think your wife is vulnerable to the point that should the right guy come along, 20 minutes would be all it would take, and you have just multiplied your problem set by a factor of a thousand.
Choc, In my "day", I never spent more than 20 minutes picking out a partner for the night. Ask BF just how easy it is to find someone that is ripe for the picking, and that's not even accounting for the ladies that are just interested in some casual sex.
I have used the term before - easy target - and that is what she is. That is not your only problem. The real problem is the guys that think that playing older women (MILFs) is all the sport, not the guys like me, just looking for like-minded individuals. Your wife is SPECIFICALLY - a target. Hence my urgency for you to start showing your protective side to her.
Choc, when I was young, I specifically stayed away from known married woman. It was simple. Back then, an estranged husband could shoot you and kill you and likely NOT land in jail. So messing with married women was a generally bad idea. That is not the case these days. Targeting MILFs is game play. In fact, a prize valued far above the casual sexual encounter.
Just so you know.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
I wouldn't assume ANYTHING about your wife now, based on her previous attitude toward sex. Read: don't assume she couldn't be interested in sex with another man now just because she isn't having sex with you.
I am 44, I have spent much of my marriage LD, I have been having a bit of a MLC myself -- I've lost weight, gotten a new hip hairstyle, more youthful clothes, etc. Not that long ago I was feeling terribly lonely, unloved, emotionally shut out by my husband. (Not blaming him, just stating how I felt.) I began to realize how easy it is for women in my situation to fall into an affair if a man came along and paid the attention so desperately needed. Feeling like that could make even the most unlikely person do something most unexpected, even someone who thinks sex is too messy.
Your P/A avoidant behavior is extremely dangerous with someone like your wife, who is clearly craving male attention, and who looks so fabulous that she could have her pick of men. You are in denial if you can't see that her need for validation of her beauty could, in an instant, turn into an affair with the validator.
Maybe on some level he's hoping that some other dude will take her off his hands.
Perhaps in his state, he has a good shot at getting custody if she jumps the fence. Or maybe he just doesn't want to dump her and look like a jerk to his kids and the rest of the world.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
I will not ascribe such calculating ulterior motives to Choco. I dont think he is intentionally wanting to flush his marriage.
I think Choco has been neglected, hurt, and both he and his wife are acting in perfectly normal ways toward each other during a LTR. He has said flat out, What does she want from me. He is/was confused.
When I messed up in my M, well there were lots of times, I am one of those emotionally underequipped beings called MEN afterall, but specifically, when I played indifferant and created a bad situation, I really thought I was being differentiated. 'superior' to the jealousy games. I was not acting in a proactive fashion though. and definitely not protective or cherishing.
I don't know if it's calculating. I just know that if she were neglecting me for years, and then showing signs of straying, I would be tempted to some degree to simply let her so I wouldn't have to make the difficult decision to stay or go.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
but specifically, when I played indifferant and created a bad situation, I really thought I was being differentiated. 'superior' to the jealousy games.