H and I are moving forward together

[mockers2]

Thank you, Nevanna for your post on my thread. Just reading your last couple of posts - goodness - be very careful. Has this xrm threatened either of you? If so, some states have a protection from abuse order - more restrictive that a restraining order that would be good to look into.

[Nevanna]

No, she hasn't directly threatened either one of us. She's just had a real fit that H moved out of the apartment (xrm = ex-roommate). She's the vocal type, the kind who vents very loudly, so a lot of the stuff she said H took as venting. (He is the same way.)

Then she started saying some creepy stuff about a week ago. I don't know how far up you read...I know I tend to have long posts. But she knew H had spent the night at my apartment--drove by and saw his car. Also seems to have some sort of problem with me, although he didn't give me details. The kicker is she desperately wanted his cat (he refused), then said she was going to get one just like him and give it the same name.

I told H if she gets anywhere near me I'm calling the police.

You have a good point, maybe I should look into what crosses that line, legally, in my state. It would be good to know.

[Nevanna]

H was here when I got home, and we discussed him meeting xrm for a bite to eat.

He didn't want to go. She actually called three times in a row, until he stepped out to take the call. She told him the other day that she missed him...and not in the "we're friends" sort of way. When I went outside with him, he actually commented he felt like he had to hide his car when he came here, and that that was kind of sad. I didn't mean to, but I griped that it was ridiculous that she object to him spending time at his wife's apartment--then I apologized for being snappish. He said it was okay, he understood my anger.

He is going to meet her (public place) to see if he can gauge her attitude, to see if she is at all violent. H said he is going to tell her that he needs to spend every day with me to study for his class, and then see what she says or what her body language shows. To get an idea of how to proceed from there.

Keep in mind, this was never a physical relationship of any sort--so no PA. In fact, she had a bf throughout most of the time they were living together. The only reason it was her to move in, was because the male friend H had originally made arrangements with backed out at the last second, and he needed someone immediately.

H was wondering if anyone here had any insightful experience, or advice on how to handle the situation. We narrowed it down to three ways of handling it...

1. She has feelings for him beyond friendship, and her blowups and odd behavior last week were a result of her not being able to deal with the situation at the moment. That she is not violent nor will stalk, and just got out of hand talking to him at the time without realizing how her actions were perceived. (I know both H and I have been upset to that point, so it is possible to come across as a potentional stalker unintentionally.)

In this case, we discussed it might be possible for them still to be friends--if he stays away from her for several months, to allow possible romantic feelings to die. But it would have to been on his terms. (This is the least likely to be played out, but we did talk about it--H values his friends very much, so I know he would like to maintain a friendship if it were possible.)

2. Ex-roommate has an unhealthy interest in H, and could become violent with myself or him. H would gradually pull back from her, cutting time with her short and spending less around her anyway to prevent her going over the edge. Possibly giving me that week I need to move into my new apartment (which she doesn't know where it's at, like she does this one), and possibly trying to get her to think it's her idea to get away from him. (Although H did say she had said at one point she didn't want to be around him anymore.)

3. Ex-roommate has an unhealthy interest in H, and all contact is completely cut off. This could lead to violence or stalking behavior because of the abrupt rejection. If she were to cross over to stalking or threats, I would file a restraining order.

H would be happy if #1 played out. I seriously doubt that will happen. Probably, he will try to play through #2--but I have doubts as to whether or not it can be pulled off, and if that would even be a good idea. My fear is we'll get stuck in #3, despite our attempts to get around it.

So...any advice would be greatly appreciated!

[Nevanna]

Okay, I know you people read this, because of the number of views! No one has any input???

So...last night was interesting.

He made this big fuss about how he would rather spend the time with me than xrm. Then, he couldn't get a hold of her for dinner plans. He called, and xrm's sister said she was asleep. Then he called back twice after that, with no answer, and left messages.

On the way out, I joked that maybe she had seen his car at my place and was ditching him. He said that was fine, it would make his life easier if she was playing games, because he just didn't care.

So we wound up going out to eat, since he was on a time limit before work. While we were eating his phone rang (imagine that) and he went off to the restroom to answer it. When he came back, he just he was "sorry about that" and we finished dinner. I didn't ask.

H went to work after that. Sometime after he was gone, I broke down and just starting crying. All the things that he's done that hurt me just came crashing down. I still think I have a lot bottle up inside--it was self defense (denial?) to keep me going with the DB. I've noticed that I'm most likely to break down when things are going well. Like the resistance has stopped, so I'm finally able to crack.

It was like I was mourning the loss of the dream we had had together, mourning the loss of our perfect little relationship. We had always thought we had the best relationship...that very few could compare to ours. And then there were two seperations, a PA, an EA, and lots and lots of hateful words...getting thrown out of my own home...the complete humiliation of it all...

I really let go. Just sat down and cried my eyes out. (I was supposed to have been packing--one week until moving day!)

When my phone rang. I could tell from the ringtone that it was H. I was surprised since he was at work--kind of hard to call from a looud bar. So I answered.

He was just calling because he missed me. (Awwww...) I told him I had been upset. He asked why, and I just said "all this stuff." I think he knew what I meant. Then I told him that I was glad he called--hearing his voice really helped. That this made the third time he's managed to call just at the right moment, when I fell apart, he just didn't know the last two times. He was kind of quiet, said maybe it just proved we really did have a connection, because he had just had the urge to call me.

So, yeah, I didn't do any packing. Actually, I curled up around a pillow and cried myself to sleep. The good kind of cry, the kind that you need to let out.

H came in to spend the night, like he had said. I was happy to see him... He must have had a hard night, because he had a lot on his mind.

He told me that it finally happened--he hadn't recognized one of his flings. Apparentally he had fooled around pretty heavily with one of the waitresses, and she had asked him if he remembered "that night." And it took him a few minutes to remember. And then he had no idea what her name was.

The incident must have really shook him. He pulled me over to lay on his shoulder, and said that he was a w*****. I told him that wasn't true...I didn't think that. He said he had no idea how many he has fooled around with (not actual sex, but close to it). He said that he was just like his dad...that he loved women. I could just hear the shame in his voice.

H has always been very torn. He has a strong desire, but has alwasy resented that desire in himself. He has often been afraid to initiate ML...I think he is ashamed of his own interest...and often deflects his interest, saying things like "guess something's interested," (think of a part of the body) instead of saying "I'm interested."

I told him I didn't think he was a w****. And all that didn't matter, since it was before me. The past is the past. He said that he was just like his dad. I said that he wasn't, that his dad didn't love his mom. He said that he did love me. I told him his dad was abusive, and he agreed he could never hurt me--then he added the word "physically," sounding pretty hurt. I told him that he would never abandon me with kids--and he said, rather vehemently, that he couldn't do that.

H told me that people had noticed he was wearing his wedding ring. (He hasn't taken it off since he put it on last weekend--yay!) I said uh-huh. He said he told them that he didn't want to lose it while he was moving. (Same thing he told me.) Then someone asked why he just didn't put it on another finger, and H said "Because I'm married, and it's sized to fit this finger." His response kind of bugs me now, since he's dismissing the married part of that, but I don't think that was intentional.

He then told me that he was still flirting to get more tips. I told him I knew that. He said sometimes women ask him for a kiss, and say they'll pay him more money, and says okay, telling them it has to be on the cheek. Then the go for the lips anyway, and he just plays it off like, haha that's funny. Obviously I'm bothered. H said he knew it bothered me, and he didn't do it when I was in there because he didn't want to upset me. (Duh...why do something if you know it'll bother me...) But that he just keeps thinking "that $5 will put gas in my car."

The whole time he was telling me this, he seemed so disgusted with himself. He commented at one point, "Why did I ever become a bartender?"

Then he broke down, kind of sobbed, and said, "What was that whole thing with XXXXX?" (Woman he had long EA with before first sep, then went briefly PA.) Then he said, "WTF?" I told him she had screwed with his head, and that it was okay, he was here with me now, and I wasn't going anywhere.

(And BTW, she really did mess with his head. Learned how to manipulate his deepest problems, stuff that I can't go into here on the BB... It was bad enough that he was starting to act genuinely crazy until he cut off contact with her because she was seriously enabling his worst issues. Like the abusive and man who has his wife so convinced that she can't leave because she's not worth it...not exactly the same thing, but she was breaking him down similarly. She actually told him that I was too good for him. This is why I truly hate that woman.)

I held him, and I finally asked who had called while we were at the restaurant. Said I was dieing of curiosity (which was true). He said it was xrm. That she was calm when he said it was too late, and that he was with me. I asked him if he thought the outbursts before were just because of the stress of the situation, and if she had calmed down and would be okay. He said yes, but that she could be triggered again.

He told me that she had this really bad anger problem. That she would just fly off over things like someone cutting in front of her in traffice. This, from a guy who admits he has road rage. Makes me wonder what he sees in her...

H then said, of all things, that he missed her. That he had wanted to call her and tell her something earlier. (After he made this big deal of not wanting to be around her.) And that he had promised to change the oil for her car on Sunday. (Yes, he does this type of thing with male friends.) He then said he would try to do the dinner on that day, too, to get it all in in one day. (WTF?? He's soooo contradictory...) I'm not entirely convinced that the "breaking away slowly" is all to just keep her from going over the edge...I think he's not capable of walking away completely, either.

I'm tired of xrm. So, so tired. I honestly think it would be best for both of them if he stayed far away from her. Clearly, they're both a little too attached. (Despite what he says.)

The next time he asks my advice, I'm going to calmly tell him that...but not make an ultimatum or anything like that. Those don't work.

When I got up this morning, my head was swimming with ideas to help H with his self-esteem/self-worth/boundary issues. I could teach him the 180 or how to act "as if."

Then it occurred to me. This is more of the same for me. I have always wanted to "help" him--which means I tell him "you need to do this so that you get this result." Never works. I know this, I just forgot it. What does work is letting him own his own problems.

Otherwise, he feels like I think he's not capable. H is opening up completely to me again. He's telling me all his deepest fears and feelings. I shouldn't take that and go "here's how to fix it!" Kind of implies I think there's smething wrong with him, even if I'm only trying to help. H has suggested MC, so I think I'm going to look up an SBT therapist after we move. Maybe get a reference from Michele's office, if I can. And, maybe suggest he listen to my KLA CD's. That's it. Let him learn how to handle his own problems, instead of me trying to pick up the pieces like I used to do all the time.

Something else I thought of while I was writing this all out... Both the manipulative b!tch (yes I have an aversion to calling her OW or xOW--my coping method...so what! ) and xrm, from H's descriptions, are incredibly temperamental and very vindictive. We're talking mean, selfish, self-centered personalities. I can't figure out why he would want to hang around people like that--except for the fact that they both gave him the impression that he was really important. He actually complained once that xrm paid less attention to him after they moved in together. (Yeah, that was annoying to hear.)

H backed away from me when I started being more critical. When he felt like I was less accepting of him. And he sought out the first person who he thought paid attention to him (even though these weren't the nicest people.)

I need to make certain to see what I'm doing that makes H feel less accepted, makes him think I am criticizing him. And pay more attention to things that help H feel more supported and creates positive memories.

Which means...not pushing about xrm. () Even though his handling of it makes me nuts.

[Nevanna]

Is it the length of my posts? I know people read this...feeling kind of lonely with the lack of replies.

Anyway!

I was feeling down this morning (probably pretty obvious from the post). So I decided to run by home to see H for lunch.

This cheered me up. He was pretty sleepy, so I crawled all over him in bed. We had a nice snack. I was feeling pretty frisky, so I started fooling around with him. It's been a long time since I've initiated--I've been letting him do it for the last couple of months.

I wanted more, but he was still pretty sleepy. I told him I thought I was having one of those times where I just want to go at it like a couple of rabbits. He said that was him about three days ago--I said it was too bad we weren't lined up! (We were three months ago...that was fun...)

H said maybe I was ovulating--which made me life, since I'm on BC. Then I thought about the, oh, 1% chance (and my friend whose mom was on BC at the time), and told him it was possible...and asked him how he would feel. He said he would happy, then scared and sad. I told him that pretty much fit me, too. (Hey...at least he's still thinking babies! )

I told him I had really just stopped by because I was upset, and knew seeing him would help me feel better. ( ) He asked what was wrong, and I told him it was just all this stuff that has happened to us. That I seemed to get upset when things calmed down the most--like I finally "had the time" to let go. I asked him if he still got upset, too. H said that he still feels really guilty sometimes. I gave him a hug, and told him that I just wanted to move on, so we could do all the things we had always said we wanted to do.

H said he thought one of our problems is money. I told him he was right--we both had been so stressed about it, that we took it out on each other unitentionally. He said that's why he wanted to stay at his mom's until he got back from the army. (I think he also feels inadequate since he can't support me.)

Seeing him helped me feel a lot better. I realized I had also stopped doing something that worked--which was making sure to include all the progress, as well as the issues left to resolve. I had started focussing on all that's still left to do...since I was trying to shorten my posts. (See what happens when I spend more time with H?? My posts explode in size!!)

So...back to including positives! I'm going to have to bust these up. And I'm going to pretend xrm doesn't exist. I did that when they were living together, so now I'm going to do it again. It worked eventually before...

[NSN]

Hi, Nevanna:

No big insight here but I think H is having a hard time cutting it off with xrm. EA, for sure.

It was like I was mourning the loss of the dream we had had together, mourning the loss of our perfect little relationship. We had always thought we had the best relationship...that very few could compare to ours. And then there were two seperations, a PA, an EA, and lots and lots of hateful words...getting thrown out of my own home...the complete humiliation of it all...

I know fully well what this mourning feels like. I think I'm going through that today myself.

When I got up this morning, my head was swimming with ideas to help H with his self-esteem/self-worth/boundary issues. I could teach him the 180 or how to act "as if."

Then it occurred to me. This is more of the same for me. I have always wanted to "help" him--which means I tell him "you need to do this so that you get this result." Never works. I know this, I just forgot it. What does work is letting him own his own problems.

Aahh. We are oh too similar, Nevanna. I've always tried to fix things, trying to help him with everything, not giving thought to how that would make him feel. I'm sure he was appreciative, but I guess, after awhile, he got to feeling, "Gosh, I can't do anything myself." I don't think he came to this conclusion on his own. Of course, this is just my speculation. I seriously think someone at work mentioned to him that he relies too much on me for work / career type things. Again, my ASSumption, but I wouldn't be surprised, based on other things he's said. I do want him to feel fully capable, though, so it is hard for me to sit back when all I want to do is help, give my advice and feedback, etc.

H backed away from me when I started being more critical. When he felt like I was less accepting of him. And he sought out the first person who he thought paid attention to him (even though these weren't the nicest people.)

Once again, similarities. I have worked on addressing my critical side, and I think H has seen some of my changes and doesn't know what to make of them. He did mention once that he talked to OW b/c she listened to him, she really listened. (I'm convinced she had other motives, but oh well.) So I need to remember to keep this up; that will be a true test of my changes.

I want to say thank you for all your advice and support on my sitch. I really appreciate it.

[ANewMe]

Hi Nevanna,

I just wanted to say that you are right, people are reading your posts and no, they are not too long. I, for one, have been busy trying to finish class obligations on time. Hard to do when all you can think about is your sitch.

Yesterday, I tried to squeeze in a post to you but H came home in the middle of it and I had to close it out before I was finished.

I really have no advice other than to second what NSN said. I, too, am a fixer. It is a terribly hard habit to break and I really never realized how it made H feel until reading on this BB.

However, my H is a non-communicator so he wouldn't tell me that it bothered him.

Enough about me, I do have one suggestion and maybe I am totally off track here. But here goes. Both of our S's play football, my H and S17 always talk about the game when it is over and they discuss the plays and what S17 could to differently or better the next time. S17 is fine with that, but when S14 and H discuss the game right afterward, S14 feels criticized and gets upset, so H and S14 have a "24 hour rule." This simply means they do not talk about the game for 24 hours. It gives S14 time to step back and take a look at what happened without taking it personally. I think it also allows my H to be more sensitive to S14 feelings and not mention minor mistakes.

I am worried that if you discuss everything that upsets you with your H, that he might begin to feel like he doesn't measure up. Maybe, if you observed the 24 hour rule, or 12 hour rules or even a 6 hour rule with things, you would have better perspective about what needs to be dealt with and what is just a passing feeling due to lack of sleep, or other outside factors. Does that make sense to you? This won't work with everything but some of the feeling you have been having recently might benefit from this strategy. Just a thought.

You and H are doing wonderfully. Keep up the good work.

[NSN]

Great idea, Luv. I second it! And - I need to follow it!

[Lyrael]

Nevanna-
I am coming out of the shadows, too. I, for one, LOVE the length and detail of your posts. You clearly lay out your progress with H, the snags, and the different things you do to try and move past them. I think you're doing great!

It's tough to have an H that has a career like yours. Mine owns a body piercing and tattoo shop, so I sympathize with you. Women fall all over my H because he is the owner, and that's always fun when there has been a history of OW's. Add to that a rumor mill that works overtime, and well, it's really a job to keep my reactions under control.

I think what you said about your H needing acceptance is key. I feel like when my H has distanced and/or strayed, it has been during times I was so angry, depressed, or critical, that I was not able to give him ANY accptance. My H's self-esteem is fragile, and this acceptance issue is a bigger deal than he can even admit. I have to validate my butt off when he shares feelings.

I feel a lot of kinship with you and your sitch, although my H has been a bit more unfaithful than yours has (3, instead of two, and all crossed the line into PA's). Dealing with OW's, and attachments to them, is exhausting. My H and I are in MC now, and although neither of us has stated unequivocally that we want this marriage permanently, the counseling is helping us to communicate better, and express our feelings in a safe environment.

One thing that has helped is that our counselor is not the least bt confrontational with my H. She listens to both of us equally, and treats us both with the same respect, so he doesn't have to deal with any "you bad boy" types of behavior from her. I think that is the key thing in finding a therapist who realizes that the relationship is the most important, and not either of the two people involved (or at least that those two people are equally important). Infidelity sucks, but it does happen (please don't think I am saying it is at all right or justified), and you have to find a therapist who isn't bitter herself about it, or she might send your H running!

Good luck in your search for an SBT, and I am sure I'll post to you again!
Have a lovely weekend!
Myrrh

[NSN]

Nevanna, I hope you're okay. Haven't heard from you in awhile. You're in my thoughts.