NMB wrote: Sounds like she won the fight. ________________________________
Ouch. Of course, you're right. And thank you for pointing it out.
___________________________ Quote: I guess you could tell her that if she doesn't work towards change you'll stay married for the kids sake but you'll just be roommates and you won't have any love or affection to throw her way and once the kids are grown you'll be on your way but let her know that it's her choice. ______________________________________
I told her that pre-PM, but after Chap 10, I'm not sure I feel the same.
Quote: I'd think you'd want to think long and hard about what such an arrangement would teach the kids, and how that might affect their own ability to sustain a relationship...
Yeah, I'm sure you're right Tim. There must be some other way he could draw a line in the sand but it's going to take some creative brainstorming.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
This is an interesting thread. Do you guys remember my posts about how my W didn't understand what initiating meant? My C said that saying "I want you to initiate" is akin to her saying "I would like you to be more helpful around the house". The LD (from what I'm seeing) really needs specifics. I don't think saying "...and be enthusiastic about it" is a bad thing.
Quote:
W: Okay, I can't be involved and enthusiastic, so I guess that means no sex.
Here's the response..... You: "Well, that's a choice you are free to make but I too can make choices about the nature of our relationship". W: "WTF?!!! Are you trying to manipulate me into more sex? You are trying to destroy our marriage!!!! Stop this differentiation because I don't want to leave my comfort zone and by all means, stop reading that quack Schnarch" You: "Sorry that's how you feel but what is such a big deal about me telling you the things I want...you don't have to do anything about them. So why get so upset." W: "Because you're pissing me off" You: "Sorry you feel that way...I'm just stating what I want. It's your choice...I don't have time to go around in circles over this. I love you and I want to ML with you more often...period. If there's anything you want (that I can do) that would make you more enthusiastic about ML more regularly, then let me know. I've said all I need to say. I love you...period." Then calmly walk out of the room.
I had a convo just like this with my W where I specified specifically what "initiation" meant. It was similar but the the act of specifying in terms of your desires really helps because they can't argue with you.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Unfortunately, most of us HD's are eventually going to be faced with the decision to divorce. So we can split the family and cause all kinds of horrbible problems for the kids, or we can stay married in passionless marriages, and end up deforming our childrens perceptions of loving relationships. What is the lessor of tow evils, probably having 2 parents in the house. Yes, this sucks.
Quote: Unfortunately, most of us HD's are eventually going to be faced with the decision to divorce. So we can split the family and cause all kinds of horrbible problems for the kids, or we can stay married in passionless marriages, and end up deforming our childrens perceptions of loving relationships. What is the lessor of tow evils, probably having 2 parents in the house. Yes, this sucks.
I think characterizing "staying together" as being an example of a "loving relationship" is a big stretch. Staying together only sets the example of "honoring commitments". Now, here's the big dilemma. If you wait until the kids are 18 and out of the house before splitting, how do you explain it? Are you prepared to stay together for the rest of your life in an SSM?
This is a very old argument and each person has a different take on it. But I would give the kids a little more credit for their ability to adapt and get over it. My W's parents divorced and that makes her more committed to the idea of staying married. My parents didn't seem very passionate but they "stuck it out" as a matter of principal but I would have had more respect for them as individuals if they would have divorced.
It's very similar to mental game we used to play that goes something like this.... "Think about the possibilities and options you have immediately prior to committing suicide" - You could join the peace corp, be a beach bum, go work as a ranch hand with cows.
Apply this to the R.... "If you are already emotionally divorced or simply hopeless about the future of the marriage" - You could try PM, counsel with Schnarch, start asserting yourself more, etc.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Because of the way our finances are, if I decide to divorce my wife, I will have to CASH my 401 k, so the tax alone on the 401k will be 75,000. Then my children will have to live with less financial resources, will probably have to move into a smaller house, and will have their college fund reduced, since it involved my 401k. Then if you read any experts, including Michelle, there is no one that claims that divorce will not NEGATIVELY impact the children. So I owe it to them to at least turn over every stone in the search for intimacy.
Of course the third option is to stay married but have a discreet affair like in "Same Time Next Year";for HDs it would probably have to be "Same Time Tomorrow" (LOL). The problem with this is you would have to be very differentiated in order to balance love for LDW, responsibility towards children, desire and love for EA partner, and integrity about your sexual needs. To the extent that you might feel that you were trying to hurt your LDW by having affair you would be emotionally fused and tempted to reveal your transgression.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: So I owe it to them to at least turn over every stone in the search for intimacy.
You do, indeed, CeMar. Be prepared to read the entire book at least twice, and spend at least 6 months trying very hard to implement it before giving up on it. In the meantime, don't worry so much about "what if". Just concentrate on turning over those stones.
Mojo, having an affair is NOT a differentiated act - it is an act of fusion, because you are usurping your partner's choices (i.e. not leaving them any). YOU get to choose BOTH "monogamy" and "having it all" - your partner doesn't get to choose either...
[quotevery differentiated in order to balance love for LDW, responsibility tow]Of course the third option is to stay married but have a discreet affair like in "Same Time Next Year";for HDs it would probably have to be "Same Time Tomorrow" (LOL). The problem with this is you would have to be ards children, desire and love for EA partner, and integrity about your sexual needs. To the extent that you might feel that you were trying to hurt your LDW by having affair you would be emotionally fused and tempted to reveal your transgression.
Look out. That affair stuff is a b****. I have enough trouble wirh dealing with H. I cannot tolerate another personality. Even my computer has too much personality for me. Right now I type a few letters then I have to close a window. That sandboxer keeps popping up. Whoever writes these program that wreck havoc in our PCs are so inconsiderate and unkind. It takes me even longer to what I am trying to do when I sit down to a computer that I hardly have time to visit and catch up with the one place where I cry about how bad I feel when my H withholds affection and sex. I am going to leave as soon as this financial mess is under control. He did not do these bills alone and I will not leave him to fix it on his own. But I am gone. If I have to without sex but I got affection and love, not sex but all the other stuff that go into loving, I could work with that. But that's not going here either. What a bummer, I really like this guy. My 2nd H died of a massive heart attack a coupla weeks ago and I hurt so bad. The grief is rough and H may be reacting to that as well as having to return to a job he doesn't want, taking a pay cut and all the other stuff that is making him feel bad. See what I mean. He treats me like sh*t and I feel sorry for him. I need help.
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