Quote: However, I do know that if Pam does truly Give Up, it will leave me and a lot of others with a LOT less hope for our own situations. If someone as committed and motivated as Pam gives up, what hope is there? That would be a sad day indeed.
Well now, Tim, let's not put any more pressure on Pam than she already has.
Quote: I wrote: I was scared, insecure and impatient. ...His voicemail style ad stated his height, weight, hair colour, etc. and that he was looking for someone to sweep off her feet. I haven't been honest with my H nor myself. I've been living a fantasy; something I thought I wanted and needed. Why waste my H's life and happiness as well as mine? H deserves to meet someone who isn't going through the motions for the sake of saving face, for the kids, for security.
How do you tell your H that you need a little romance to feel special, wanted, needed, longed for? How do you keep telling him after he hasn't heard you? How do you tell him when you're finally at the point where you don't even want it anymore? My first birthday with him, I received a card and a pack of cigarettes. I was in shock. I was in love with him, so I tried to break it to him gently how disappointed I was. He seemed to feel so bad about it that I felt bad for not being happy with what I got and opening my mouth. As far as I can tell, this has been an ongoing pattern that we both have been dealing with over the years. I kept waiting for him to "sweep me off my feet". I would rush right home after work excited to see him and spend the evening together, but I never got the sense that he felt the same way.
I had to ask him to delete his xgirlfriend's and her parents' phone numbers out of his speed dial after living with him for at least a month. I remember feeling jealous and sad when I happened upon an old receipt for a dozen long stemmed roses for his girlfriend's birthday, before we met. I felt like I was second best and that he wished things had worked out between them. I found a photo album which consisted of only photos of her. I asked him if he could throw them away and he did. Then, he asked me to throw away my photos of a past boyfriend and I couldn't even though I agreed that it would only be fair. The difference to me was that my photo album was a timeline of events, not just a boyfriend. His was just of her!
He always assured me that he loved me, but I had doubts in the back of my mind. I certainly wasn't feeling swept. In fact, the only "romance" I received was seemingly when he was horny. I remember telling him when we were dating that sex wasn't everything to me, and he agreed saying he felt the same way. I also remember him pushing for us to have sex and feeling pressured. He told me his feelings get stronger when he's in a sexual relationship. I decided to take my chances and see if his feelings would get stronger, but I don't really remember any significant change. I was the first to say "I love you" and was completely devestated when he couldn't respond... for months.
I fell out of love with him when I was going to a night class just before he proposed. I would go there right after work and wouldn't get home until 11pm. Every night, I'd pray that he'd be up waiting for me... to greet me with a hug and kiss. Every night, I'd get home and he'd be snoring logs in bed. It hurt. I remember wondering how long it would take for him to find out that something had happened to me. Would he be woken by a phone call? Would he find out when he woke up to my not being there in the morning? I felt taken for granted and used.
Enough of the past. That was just the beginning, and it doesn't get much more romantic. Did I have a warped sense of what romance is? I don't think so. Am I needy? I don't think so, I'm quite independent. I married him because I thought I would be foolish to pass on the chance of becoming a wife and mother. I thought time would make him more receptive to my needs and that I would grow to accept him more and more each day. Here we are, about to celebrate 10 years this August, and I'm tired of hoping that tomorrow will be better. I'm tired of having to worry about his feelings. I'm tired of not being myself. I know marriage is work and compromising, I truly do. I just don't want to do it anymore. I was fooling myself to think I could get over the fact that he was disrespecting me and hurting me (mentally) by trying to be sexual with me. I wanted to prove to myself and to him that I could and I think I did a pretty good job of it, but it wasn't making me happy.
Quote: SD wrote: Bite the bullet, take Michele's advice and "JUST DO IT". We all love you to bits Aquarian and desperately want you to find your way. Once you are "Just doing it" bring all your worries here and me and the 'dog, CeMar, Dave36, Corri, Tim47 and everyone will be here to help you.
That's what I was doing SD and believe me, I've loved the suggestions, advice and support I've received on here. You've all been so helpful and caring. I truly appreciate every one of you and wish like hell that you reach that happy medium with your spouses.
Quote: Tim47 wrote: Do you love H? Does he love you? Do you REALLY think that giving up will solve the problem? Are you SURE there's nothing left to try? Please tell me you're just in a funk!
Yes, I love him and he loves me. Am I in love with him? No. I haven't been for our entire marriage. That's the problem, I don't want to try anything anymore. I never should have gotten married in the first place. I honestly believe that H has a chance to go on and meet someone that will fully love him and want to grow old with him. The thought of us being empty nesters scares the heck out of me. We have little in common. I want him to find someone more compatible. I don't care if I ever meet anyone. I just want to raise my kids the best I can and finally be myself. Is this considered a MLC? I don't think so. This is me being real and standing up for what I think is right. I love my H enough to set him free. I don't love him enough to hold onto him and overcome our obstacles. Bash me if you want to. I can take it.
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Quote: My H wrote: Well this is the second time that I've posted and I'm having a hard time with this one.
Quote: I wrote: My mother always scolded me for masturbating as a child and made a big deal about it. She's got religious/moral issues against it. I ignored her and was just very sneaky growing up. I've always enjoyed masturbating, but while I was LD, I noticed that I didn't feel any urge to masturbate. I'd probably go a few months before it would even enter my mind. Now that I'm "better", I seem to want to masturbate at least *once* every other day... strange huh?
This post angered him. We had a lengthy discussion about it as he thought I didn't MB. Low and behold he finds out that I do and somehow that's offensive.
Quote: I wrote:These last few posts are reminding me of a discussion (argument actually) that my H and I had after he saw my post in this thread. He was upset to learn that I actually masturbate! He had no idea and was hurt that I pleasure myself. I tried to explain to him that I do it for the release, not the orgasm... orgasms are with him. (Oh and I wasn't just saying that! It's true)
He wasn't really comforted by that. I grew up having to secretly masturbate, so naturally it is a private thing for me still. He's upset that I don't want him to watch.
Quote: H wrote: My W has a vibrator, she had it before I met her. W's xb gave it to her, so I've known for a while. I guess for me being HD and W was LD/ND for alot of years and to find out from reading it in a post that she would MB rather than ML to me kinda hurt Now that her SD has increased, so has the frequency of her MBing, and that's OK with me and I'm not mad at her for it. I also would enjoy to watch and possibly have it trun into us ML as there is very little variety these days. But even tho, it's her call and if W wants to share that part of her with me then Grreaat! But if not I respect that.
How does me masturbating translate into prefering it to ML especially when I had just spelled out that it's a release and not an "orgasm"? I also told him years ago, that I used the vibrator once and that I prefer my hand. I guess he wasn't listening.
Quote: H wrote: Our mariage has been missing something for a long time that both of us seem to be missing (passion, communication, tenderness, quality time together).
This is true. I can't help but think that we never really had these in the beginning though. We didn't even ML on our honeymoon.
Quote: HD wrote: You can choose to see everything as a lesson from which to learn. This guy obviously loves you. It took him a lot of courage to come on here and admit who he was. I give him big gobs of credit. In fact, since I am unable to, could you give him a big sloppy kiss from Hairdog?
Yes, it did take courage and I give him credit. I've been giving him credit all along. I told my therapist the other day that I'm tired of not doing the right thing, saying the right thing. I just want to be me.
Quote: HD wrote: Pam: Just remember: WWCD. What Would Corri Do?
WWCD? Hard to say. I think she was wiser than me. She probably didn't marry the first guy to propose to her! She probably married for the right reasons; not out of fear of being alone. I can't say what she would do in my shoes.
Pam, thank you for laying it all out like that... I had no idea. No doubt it sucks for everyone concerned, but at some point everyone has to decide if there is really any reason to keep trying. For everyone that choice is different. I guess I'm just trying to say... whatever choice you make, I understand - not that my understanding needs to mean anything to anyone, but thank you for giving me the chance to understand.
Stay with it, CH. It sounds like both of you are really hurting.
I'm just trying to figure out where all this is coming from. Did CH try to do something to you while you were sleeping last night? Did your C tell you to move on? Why are you so pissed off, Pam?
Quote: I honestly believe that H has a chance to go on and meet someone that will fully love him and want to grow old with him.
This is not what I'd expect from you, Pam. This is the old cop-out language, designed to make you look like you're being magnanimous. Well, if you set it free, and it flies back to you, then isn't it your responsibility to love it and nurture it?
Pam, I hope this comes off the right way. I think you have a skewed idea of what marriage is all about.
Please don't think that your situation is unique or special in any way. We ALL think that about our spouses and usually quite often. I think, What drew us to each other in the first place? What was I thinking? I got married for the wrong reasons? And my personal favorite, H didn't marry me cause he wanted to; he just did it cause I told him that's what we would do. He didn't CHOOSE me.
We all have these demons and they don't make a whit of difference in the long run.
I think that you have an idealized notion of what marriage is about and how people feel when they are in it. Believe me, I would love for my H to be romantic but it is not in his makeup so if I want it, I have to suggest ways that he can do it and then "help" him follow through with it. Yes it sucks but I have to accept that he is a MAN who is fallible and has limitations. He is not a god who will never make a mistake or have shortcomings.
This whole "swept off your feet" thing...hmm, I don't know about that. It puts a LOT of the burden on him to make you feel a certain way. That is not real life. YOU are responsible for your own happiness and he is responsible for sharing that with you. He does not determine whether you are a happy person. You do. By continually coming back to the swept off your feet stuff, you know that you have him where you want him. He will fail you in this endeavor and then you are justified in not doing the hard work of repairing your sexual relationship.
That is not to say that he doesn't have any responsibilities to meet this need of yours; he does. But treating someone special and "sweeping them off their feet" are two different things. You are raising the bar SO HIGH that he has no hopes of ever reaching it.
Is that how you feel in regards to your sex life? That the bar is so high that you can't get there? Do you feel that he will only be satisfied with perfection?
Oh and one other thing. There are many days (usually when I'm in a down mood) that I think that I don't love my husband. Actually a better way to put it is taht I really don't know WHY I am in love with him. By all accounts, I shouldn't be. We share no hobbies or nothing in common. We have had to overcome huge hurdles in our marriage. But the fact remains that I do love him. I want a life with him, even if it's difficult, rather than take my chances with someone else.
I look at these happily married old folks and, Pam, not for one second do I fool myself into thinking that they did not have issues (even big ones) like I do. They just persevered. My girlfriends mother once told me that marriage is like an ocean wave--sometimes it's up and you are madly in love, sometimes it's down and you are not really sure what you're doing with that person. Is it possible that you are just on a down wave?
Hope your day got better and that you have a good night with CH.
I have to whole heartedly second what honeypot is saying. She's right on and if you think for one second "ya, ya, I know m isn't supposed to always be perfect" take a look around (not just this forum) look at the divorce busting and divorce remedy books...read the quotes in the book. waw's and wah's all seem to have the same things to say (some of wich you are saying). Just take a look, I believe the first chapters are on this site.
what have you got to loose?
oh and in defense of ch, my h is ld doesn't want sex much more than once a month...if I were to discover that he's been masturbaiting a few times a week while rejecting me I'd be insulted, hurt and humilitated.
I also wanted to say, that CH's first post on the Sexual Issues board was in reply to some whacko named Spooley, who taperecorded his wife using her vibrator, played it for her daughter, and was doing this to prove that she was lying to him about NOT masturbating. CH took him to task, as we all did.
Just wanted you to know that there are some real weirdos out there, and CH doesn't seem to be one.
I understand, Aquarian. Sounds like you have alot going on inside you right now. Perhaps you were hoping sex was going to be the magic pill that would make it all better? I'm asking. I'm not assuming. The issues you bring up are big and complex. Who wouldn't want/hope for a simple solution? But, while TSSM is a very good hammer, everything is not necessarily a nail.
I think you need to talk with someone in person and in depth about everything that is going on inside you, about more than sex or even your relationship with your H. What you're writing about seems like more than those two things.
Give some serious thought to making that person your H. Let him be your confidant. He may surprise you at how interested he is. Can you trust him enough to really let him in? Maybe it's risky, but give him a chance to show you he can provide the emotional support you need right now. Maybe you need this even more than romance?
Quote: ...and finally be myself.
I was originally going to ask you to say more about this, but what if you talk to your H about it instead? Seems like a pretty important issue to deal with.
Quote: HD wrote: I'm just trying to figure out where all this is coming from. Did CH try to do something to you while you were sleeping last night? Did your C tell you to move on? Why are you so pissed off, Pam?
This is the old cop-out language, designed to make you look like you're being magnanimous. Well, if you set it free, and it flies back to you, then isn't it your responsibility to love it and nurture it?
And what about the kids?
You guys are tearing me up today.
H has been nothing but a great guy. Nothing has "happened" and my therapist did not tell me to move on. I am not "so pissed off". I simply don't want my H to be a member of the SSM "team". I'm tired of trying so hard to be a passionate wife.
I guess I'm a cop out. I'm not trying to be magnanimous, but I don't even know exactly what that word means without looking it up! I'm not trying to be anything but honest and real. We're both young enough to find true happiness. H asked me if there was one thing that could be different tomorrow, what would I want it to be. I don't know.
We both love our kids so much and want the best for them. What that is, right now, I have no clue. I hate to break up our family, but I strongly feel that as long as both parents love the children and can respect one another, that they will be fine.
I'm sorry, again, for being such a bummer.
Quote: HP wrote: I think you have a skewed idea of what marriage is all about. H didn't marry me cause he wanted to; he just did it cause I told him that's what we would do. He didn't CHOOSE me. I think that you have an idealized notion of what marriage is about and how people feel when they are in it.
I don't think so, but perhaps I do. H happened to be the first man to propose to me, but I know that he CHOSE me. He took so long to say "I love you" because he wanted to be sure that he did. That was why I wanted to be married before having kids. I wanted to marry a man that loved me, rather than marry me out of any obligation.
Quote: HP wrote: My girlfriends mother once told me that marriage is like an ocean wave--sometimes it's up and you are madly in love, sometimes it's down and you are not really sure what you're doing with that person. Is it possible that you are just on a down wave?
I've never been madly in love. This isn't a down wave.
Quote: LL wrote: oh and in defense of ch, my h is ld doesn't want sex much more than once a month...if I were to discover that he's been masturbaiting a few times a week while rejecting me I'd be insulted, hurt and humilitated.
I wasn't masturbating when I was LD and rejecting him. I was masturbating when I was HD, initiating and never rejecting.
I'm at a loss for words right now. 
I'm asking. I'm not assuming. The issues you bring up are big and complex. Who wouldn't want/hope for a simple solution? But, while TSSM is a very good hammer, everything is not necessarily a nail.