Grief and Gratitude, Grok

[grok]

Catman,

I did say I had more thoughts. Never enough time to write. Today I took the time for myself after work to ride my bike 20 miles with two other guys I’m just getting acquainted with from a FB local group. Then a couple hours of kids and chores. Now it is midnight. Ugh.

Man I don't know how you do it with kids.

Because they are wonderful kids. Lots of self sufficiency and values taught them by W! It's more about just being there for them. Saying Yes when they ask to do something with you, just qualify time and place availability. Like this:

True story yesterday after work
D18, "Dad, I want to get more cool matchbox cars! Can you go with me?"
G, "Of course! Let me finish the promised computer game with S12, then eat something quick, then we will go."
D18, "Daaaaaaad, but I want to go now!"
G, "but wouldn't it be better if we all went?"
D18, "That's true, D17 and S12 need to get off their butts and out of the house too. Lets go you two!
Dad, you have to drive and spend your gas."
And so we did.

You are being the rock for your kids In a time or turmoil.

I am now, though I think W would have a complaint that I left it far too much all to her before. "I give and nobody gives back to ME!" Lest readers think it is all WW issues, there was an imbalance there of which I am ashamed. I have re-bonded tight with all three in this crisis though. It was either chose to step up or choose to fail as Father.

It seems much like others in the situation that the kids end up with a better understanding or the situation and more maturity than the WW. To me it seems she's lashing out and not knowing how to deal with her situation. Emotions leading behavior.

To W's credit, she is the one who gave them much of the insight they are using on her now.

I somehow think that hormonal changes have a lot to do with this behavior and they just don't know how to manage or deal with it. .

This is true and one of many things that are affecting behavior. Women in her family start menopause early. She has said to me perimenopause has started.

I look at like a function of combining waves, all coinciding to peak at the same time.

Add in there a crisis of purpose (i.e. MLC) since retiring from the military reserves. She outright told me this last year that since that time she has been bouncing around without guard rails or purpose after that retirement. Somehow she could not figure that Wife, Mom, Homemaker, Homeschool teacher, and a number of other roles she had taken on were sufficient purpose.

Add in the over the top flattery and attention from OM just as she is reaching the big 50 and feeling the effects of age. I’ve talked to at least three other women who have said that age is very tough for women. They described desperately wanting to feel desirable again. Last year W said to me, “I need someone who needs me and can’t live without me.”

Add in my own issues of long shallow depression. I react by slowly withdrawing from all those around me…into my Cave. Where in hindsight I feel OK about myself as I do little non-risky things.

And so on… as I work this year on understanding and righting myself.

g

[grok]

Sunflyer,

Not much I can add, other than that my situation is practically a mirror of yours.

And many others. See how many “fill in the blanks” similarities there are in Jack Three Beans story reposted by AmyC. They both had a lot of experience and insights to share and well worth your time to read.

Jack's Story

Once upon a time, Jack was complacent in his marriage and home life. He did the bare minimum, as did his wife. As parents they were “there" but not really there for their two wonderful boys. Jack lost himself from the troubles, cares and boredom of the world in video games. Jack's wife lost herself in the attention of Jack's friend.

That was a year and a half ago, more or less. My story is much like anyone else's. We could make a form and leave blank spaces here for all of the new people.

A year plus into this I can identify here now. It is uncomfortable. Where did she go?

Now Jack, doesn't know if he wants her in his life. The things that he used to be able to swallow stick in his throat. He sometimes see the friend he used to have, but mostly it is just this person sitting across from him, this stranger who looks like someone he used to know.

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=927227

Even when you may feel like you have nothing to say, simply thank you for stopping by. For me, when we do this it says someone understands, someone cares, you are not alone. I started in Lamentations, feeling alone, feeling like my faults were the sum of things, and feeling like OM's power loomed large.

Look, LORD, and see how I have become dishonored.
Is this nothing to you, all you who pass by?
Look and see: Is there any grief like my grief dealt out to me,
by which the LORD afflicted me in the time of his fierce wrath?
He sent fire from on high, making it penetrate my bones.
He stretched out a net at my feet, forcing me to turn back.
He made me desolate; I'm fainting all day long.
The yoke of my sins was bound on, fastened together by his hand.
They settled on my neck; he caused my strength to fail.
The LORD placed me in the power of those I cannot resist.

Of course these are not the TRUTH, but often how we FEEL at the time. Now, well, I can see from your story and others back through the archives - I am not alone, my faults are not a reason to walk away, and OM, well he is at minimum dishonorable and selfish. My WW may give him power over herself, but that is not MY responsibility and I do not have to justify myself to the almighty for it.

Zues126 quote on marriage vows. It expresses my views better than anything else I've read.

And me. And what it is immensely frustrating that all I read here and in books about an EA or PA suggests the emotions override the vows, values, and everything else. I grieve at the lost time and effort that could have been spent repairing and healing. There I go with logic! Sandi2, FightingFit, AmyC, …. and other ladies who gave their inside experience with affairs and MLC, shows logic and doing what is right don’t matter to those in it.

My W said to me, "I just want to get through this with the minimum amount of pain." ... from me, OM, OM's wife, our kids, OM's kids?, herself ... It was not about what was right or vows or anything else. When told some of my story, others described it as running away behaviors. Running, running away from pain and unhappiness. A very MLC type behavior.

This is hard to comprehend (to grok) for me. It took me four years to marry my W when she was ready much earlier. She was an emotional mess for the first two years and co-dependent on her mother. I worked through that with her with open ended listening and empathy. I saw the promise in her. For me, I had to work through the question “could I commit permanently? Could I commit for life through the worst I could imagine?” I only said “I do” AFTER being able to answer “yes.”

g

[Sunflyer]

And many others. See how many “fill in the blanks” similarities there are in Jack Three Beans story reposted by AmyC. They both had a lot of experience and insights to share and well worth your time to read.

Yep, a lot of similarities. Also reading through that perimenopausal stuff in your situation rang a lot of bells. The ages of your W and mine basically the same. Mine now postmenopausal.

Now, well, I can see from your story and others back through the archives - I am not alone, my faults are not a reason to walk away, and OM, well he is at minimum dishonorable and selfish. My WW may give him power over herself, but that is not MY responsibility and I do not have to justify myself to the almighty for it.

Absolutely. That mess is on her side of the street. You need only worry about yours. Coming to this realization relieved me of taking more blame than I needed to.

And me. And what it is immensely frustrating that all I read here and in books about an EA or PA suggests the emotions override the vows, values, and everything else. I grieve at the lost time and effort that could have been spent repairing and healing. There I go with logic!

Exactly. The person being left is the fixer. They want to repair things. The person walking out is fueled purely on emotion, so logic will not reach them.

It took me four years to marry my W when she was ready much earlier. She was an emotional mess for the first two years and co-dependent on her mother. I worked through that with her with open ended listening and empathy. I saw the promise in her. For me, I had to work through the question “could I commit permanently? Could I commit for life through the worst I could imagine?” I only said “I do” AFTER being able to answer “yes.”

Obviously, things were not always ideal for you any more than they were always ideal for her. Yet you did not turn to someone else when it was difficult.

[grok]

Continuing GAL… I went to a mens night movie with a friend at his church. He is someone I didn’t know before this last year, but have made the effort to get acquainted with. Our sons are good friends. This is the first time he has asked me to go do something.

Attraction, hypergamy, etc… The mens night was showing the movie “The Hill” and the man whose life it is based on was a guest. Kind of a melodramatic true story and really pulls your emotions around when they are already raw. There were a number of parts I noted, but one sticks in my mind. The young baseball player Ricky Hill has upcoming tryouts for the Major League. Because of his injuries and degenerative disease, this risks being in a wheelchair the rest of his life. He is deciding to give up his dream so as not to risk it. His girlfriend tells him she will only stick around for the man pursuing his dream, NOT for one who picks the safe and stable route. He, the man, must maintain his mission in life or she walks….

Embracing limbo, uncertainty …. Figuring out how to enjoy the the present when the life I thought I had has been nuked. The children living with me has been my exhausting blessing. Now they usually come to me for all the little things. W and D18 were out on a 3 day trip for D18 who has an upcoming birthday this weekend. Did a shopping trip with D17 and found a prom dress for her. Double checked with my sisters and they approved my/her choice. I think I was the only father within shouting distance LOL. Then did more shopping with D17 for D18’s birthday, ended up with glitter on me and exercising my pretty pretty princess skills.

I’m finding The Beauty Between.

Painting the world to be hopeless
Painting it perfect and fine
Put what I want on the canvas
Every color my design

How do I hold all of the discord?
All of my answers collide
Fighting for progress in quicksand
There's no truth between the pride

Nobody sees all the pieces
Tricky to balance a beast
I am a pendulum swinging
Still, I know You're holding me

When the sky is falling, when life is a dream
I fortunately fall into the beauty between
Only God above me, painting my scene
I fortunately fall into the beauty between

And on my bedside table The Beauty of the In-Between: Finding God in the Silence, the Struggle, and the Places In-Between by Matthew Nelson. I’ll let you know. “The Beauty of the In-Between is about learning to fully embrace the space between where you are and where you want to be. It’s about embracing God's process; the ups and downs, zigzags, uncertainties, struggles, detours, seasons of doubt, and the waiting.“

This is difficult because All the emotions.

Waiting for the sunrise, To see what we'd do
Would we be strong, Could we be true?
Dreaming in the downtime, With promise to prove
Moments to pass, Pass into view

Ooh...
All the emotions

Continuing the upset series…. W texts she is coming over to say goodnight to kids but will stay outside to make it quick and not have dogs and kids all bouncing around. I take a tired and emotional D18 to walk the dogs but when I arrive back W has gone into house. Dogs get agitated and tired D18 has minor tiff with D17 who won’t let the slight go. I start to address the issue of the upset though not fix their dispute. (D17 later remarked, yes, I don’t like it when people try to fix my problems.). W however, then jumps in with both feet to address and critique their relationship skills. I take S12 to get ready for bed and remove us from the discussion resulting. D18 walks out eventually and lays down on my bed asking for a hug. It took an hour but W and D17 eventually conclude with smiles. S12 brushes his teeth and them also comes and lays on my bed.

Aside on kids behavior towards W…. After getting a goodnight from W, the children will go about their night routines upstairs and go to bed without further contact with W. She exits alone, no kids at the door, after taking care of an Angora rabbit of hers. (She had a second Angora rabbit, but she did not take care of it enough and it died a month ago.)

Aside on W’s new project, again…. W piped up about dog training again. After taking big dog for only one training session she has not gone back to continue, so far. Plans seem to rapidly rotate and evolve. A few days ago W, “G, if it is OK with you I will take big dog for training. OH, I mean as the dog I will use to be trained as a dog trainer.” Oh, … yet another job type? Good thing I zeroed expectations of her months ago.

Still, it feels like Failure

Life will come our way, It has only just begun
The world will die alone, The frail will fall below
Time will take our place, We return it back to one
The calm before the cold, The long and lonely road

Look for the light that leads me home
Tired of feeling lost, tired of letting go
Tear the whole world down, tear the whole world down
Failure

Tonight's GAL, off to the brew pub for trivia night. I haven't been able to make it for two weeks. Business travel and then D17 and S12's graduation exercise from their homeschool coop.

g

[Sunflyer]

Add in the over the top flattery and attention from OM just as she is reaching the big 50 and feeling the effects of age. I’ve talked to at least three other women who have said that age is very tough for women. They described desperately wanting to feel desirable again. Last year W said to me, “I need someone who needs me and can’t live without me.”

I get the same impression about age. My W does not handle it well at all. Worries over every gray hair, gets it dyed as soon as the roots start to grow out. Had cosmetic surgery last year (breast lift/reduction and work on her "flabby" arms). Constantly obsessed about her weight and body image as well (bariatric patient, and I've read that being married to one considerably increases the likelihood of divorce. I wasn't aware of that before).

“I need someone who needs me and can’t live without me.” Realize that these are the words of someone who has a hard time finding happiness and that purpose they seek within themselves. They seek validation from others; otherwise they question their self-worth. They are feeling desperation. They will be vulnerable to affairs. It is better to feel one's worth inherently than to rely on others to reflect it.

Your W should realize that it is good to replace the word "need" with "want." And I think being someone who "can't live without" her is too big a burden to place on you or, for that matter, anyone. I am learning that I can live without W, even if it is not the path I wanted or chose. I would not want any partner of mine to think that they can't live without me. Enjoy what I can offer while I am here; then later dance on my grave (if I have one; I'm planning that my remains end up elsewhere).

[grok]

“I need someone who needs me and can’t live without me.” Realize that these are the words of someone who has a hard time finding happiness and that purpose they seek within themselves. They seek validation from others; otherwise they question their self-worth. They are feeling desperation. They will be vulnerable to affairs. It is better to feel one's worth inherently than to rely on others to reflect it.

This has been an on and off issue for a long time. From what I have been learning this year, most women need more external validation than I thought. I had thought her stronger internally...after all we both came up though a similar military experience which toughens you.

We even were in the same same unit (different years) in initial officer schooling. The unit known for bringing up all the oddballs. We met at our first assignment through an unlikely series of events...call it a miracle where two personalities you would not normally associate with military service were put together and found they were aligned in lots of interests and almost every value.

The following message sequence was from just under three years ago. A couple years after retiring from military reserves because of persistent health issues (could no longer pass the fitness test). W is closest to an INFJ, feels like she has to jump in and help any friend that has needs, and never asks for help when she needs it.

G: <heart emoji>

W: I want to not be here. I am just one big mistake.
W: I think it all boils down to this: I haven’t won anything for years. I have been at the bottom of the barrel for years, since about 2016 when I switched to the job in Alabama. I feel like I do very little right, that I keep helping other people win but no one helps me except you guys.
W: Individually it’s a minor mishap
W: But with everything else for ages it just feels like life is mediocre and no fun and isn’t going to go anywhere. And I actually have things so good other people would die to have what I have. But I’m tired of humiliation and last place
W: I’m tired of stupid stuff I feel like my friends wouldn’t hug me just laugh at me or one up me or tell me how talented they all are or how many millions of kids they attract to their troops or how they have pristine houses or win win win off the back of my encouragement and always be there.
W: Am I that way to others? I think that’s what I need to focus on is how can I be better to others especially the kids.

G: From the book listening to...   “There is a quote from her writing in the book:

“And this is wisdom in a weary land;
ask nothing,
shut your teeth upon your need,
“SELVA OSCURA,” JOY DAVIDMAN”.

It is this image of shutting your teeth upon your needs that speaks to me of the same problem. How many women quietly suffer in the world in this way, I wonder?

The book was "Becoming Mrs. Lewis" by Patti Callahan, a biography written in the form of a historical novel. Joy Davidman, an accomplished author in her own right, was C.S. Lewis wife for four years before dying of cancer.

I showed this quote to an officer who served with her. He found it not matching reality...that she had more success than most of her peers.

I also note she says no one helps her but me and the kids. The complaint this year was she gave and gave and I didn't give back.

Your W should realize that it is good to replace the word "need" with "want." And I think being someone who "can't live without" her is too big a burden to place on you or, for that matter, anyone.

The need to feel desired above all seems to have overridden everything else right now. To the point where, to my stunned disbelief, last year I heard from W "he said he would leave his wife for me" and "he felt like killing himself in the past but I gave him hope" and she did not see it as red flags, but as the most amazing pursuit she had ever felt.

g

[MrP]

Grok. My W has exhibited similar behavior (constant comments about gray hair....needing to get it dyed, wondering about going all gray, etc.) and I recognize my MIL has historically said/done similar things about her hair. Years ago, during my first attempt at DBing, W was certain she wanted to get a tattoo, loose weight, questioned many previous life choices, and other MLC-like behavior).

Thanks to this forum, I've worked to pivot to what I can control, focused on myself and daughter, and researched strategies for navigating life with an MLC partner for now. More recently, W shifted to telling me she wants me to be happy and doesn't want me to later regret sticking with her to which I said "I appreciate your thoughtfulness. I'd let you know if I had similar concerns".

I fully agree with Sunflyer that needing someone who "can't live w/o her" seems unhealthy all around. Death, serious illness/injuries, and many other things can take loved ones from us in an instant. I can appreciate wanting a partner who is truly in it for the other person. Can't live w/o them is over the top IMHO.

[Sunflyer]

I showed this quote to an officer who served with her. He found it not matching reality...that she had more success than most of her peers.

I also note she says no one helps her but me and the kids. The complaint this year was she gave and gave and I didn't give back.

I can believe this. The things she wrote make it sound like she is in frequent, maybe constant, competition with herself.

I have also learned of the importance of validation to women. Certainly they require it more than many of us expected. If you had validated your W more, would she have stayed? The reality is, who knows. Statements like she hasn't "won" anything in a while, that life is boring and mediocre are concerning. I am no therapist, but if someone said these things to me I would feel that there is deeper unrest beyond the marital issues.

I identify with the "gave and gave" comment. I heard the same thing. She used to tell the kids, "Daddy and I are a team. We always look out for each other and help each other." Now, her view is it was all one-sided.

[Sunflyer]

More recently, W shifted to telling me she wants me to be happy and doesn't want me to later regret sticking with her to which I said "I appreciate your thoughtfulness. I'd let you know if I had similar concerns".

I like this response. I heard something very similar from W and wish I had thought of it!

[Mach1]

Sunflyer,

Not much I can add, other than that my situation is practically a mirror of yours.

And many others. See how many “fill in the blanks” similarities there are in Jack Three Beans story reposted by AmyC. They both had a lot of experience and insights to share and well worth your time to read.

Jack's Story

Once upon a time, Jack was complacent in his marriage and home life. He did the bare minimum, as did his wife. As parents they were “there" but not really there for their two wonderful boys. Jack lost himself from the troubles, cares and boredom of the world in video games. Jack's wife lost herself in the attention of Jack's friend.

That was a year and a half ago, more or less. My story is much like anyone else's. We could make a form and leave blank spaces here for all of the new people.

A year plus into this I can identify here now. It is uncomfortable. Where did she go?

Now Jack, doesn't know if he wants her in his life. The things that he used to be able to swallow stick in his throat. He sometimes see the friend he used to have, but mostly it is just this person sitting across from him, this stranger who looks like someone he used to know.

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=927227

Even when you may feel like you have nothing to say, simply thank you for stopping by. For me, when we do this it says someone understands, someone cares, you are not alone. I started in Lamentations, feeling alone, feeling like my faults were the sum of things, and feeling like OM's power loomed large.

Hey G....

Been keeping up a bit with your sitch...

I'm not here much anymore, although I do stop by occasionally to read.

Anytime my old friend's names are dropped, I do perk up a bit and pay attention to what's being said and interpreted.

I think if you were to read any situation from the past, you will find so many similarities in them.

So much of MLC is textbook, and so many of the stories resonate when you are in the heat of the battle.

I do see some things though, within you, that resemble Jack. The understanding, the softness, some of the interactions.

He came into DB softly, yet wielding a big stick. He owned his faults and acted on them to change and become a better version of himself. He was very vocal about his role in the breakdown of his marriage.

Most of his threads have been purged by now, which is a shame. He did have a way of telling his story.

He was also a walkaway, from his first marriage. And I think a lot of that allowed him to find empathy in his situation.

To him, the confusion that the WAS displays is the difference in those two paths.

Jack was also the first person that would tell you that there were people here, posters, that were more deserved of reconciliation of their marriage, yet he was lucky. Lucky that his wife's MLC was shorter than others, and he was able to outlast it.

And he DBed with the best of them, right up to the point where he was done....


AmyC was a fireball of MLC, a hailstorm within herself. She was the one in MLC that destroyed her marriage, and her husband DBed her without knowing what that meant, and when she hit her rock bottom, she tried to regain what had been lost, up until she realized that she was not going to sell her soul, just to be married to her husband....


Her reflection on that, and her openness of what MLC looked like was what made her special.


Jack would have been a fan of you though....

Encouraging you to burn every ounce of fuel to outlast her MLC, to find a way through this while causing minimal damage. To find one more day within yourself. He would ask if she was worth it, the waiting for her to figure herself out before a bell was rung that could not be un-rung..

He would tell you that your spouse carried your marriage at times on her back, and that maybe it's just your time to carry the marriage for while.

"Today is not the day I quit, maybe I will tomorrow, but let's see what tomorrow brings"

He would also tell you to use your anger as a shield, not as a sword with your interactions....

And that there is nothing that you can say or do to change this, yet everything that you say or do will change this....

LOL, yea....when that makes sense, you will be on your way....

For me ?

I liken your story to another friend here.... TSqaured2



https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&view=started&id=30310




I'm glad that you are taking the time to read the archives...

There are some incredible people that have come and gone through here....

You will be a success, regardless of the outcome of your situation....

If you choose, or if you want to ask me anything, just put it out here, I will try to check in more often...

You got this G....