Mazes of the Mind

[sjohns6]

Hello friends.

Previous Thread.

Wow, it's been quite some time since I've posted. I had to stop coming to the site because as I progressed through my healing, at some point I realized that I was still a bit obsessive with reading all the MLC stories and it was keeping me a bit in limbo. That of course was a product of my own mental wellbeing, nothing to do with the site itself. You guys are amazing support and I am glad you are here. This site is a godsend!

So much has happened in the last few years. I think that I might have made some decisions which slowed my healing down a bit, but I think I am back on track now, and that is why I am here. After doing a bit of rug sweeping for a little while I have started to revisit my healing. Uncovering all the stuff under the rug has of course stirred up my emotions towards my situation, as well as the new things that have happened. So, I am going to journal a bit. I need to try and do that more because I just reread some of my last posts and in them are things that I completely forgot had happened. I'm glad for the reminder.

For a quick recap:

W and I started dating in high school. After 6 years of dating she got pregnant and we got married in the same year. A year after our S was born she got pregnant again and we had our daughter. Fast forward many years, we had a happy family and were very close. We did family vacations, both had good jobs, went on dates as often as possible, and our families blended well. Lots of love to go around. Then in the fall of 2016, she started becoming a little distant. She started working out, worrying about her appearance more, and starting to go out with coworkers after work for happy hour. Then in January of 2017, BD. She had an EA with a coworker. I did the whole begging and trying to fix things for a few months before I found this site. For about a year and a half I pretzeled myself trying to work things out between us. I tried really hard to use all the DB stuff and GAL. Its not easy, but I love my family and would do anything to keep it together. Lots of minor details of things along the way that I won't list out here again. Then, in June of 2018, W moved out to her own place. So, for the past 5 years we have been living separately only really communicating regarding the kids scheduling. We pretty much do parallel parenting. I tried to co-parent for a while, but that only really works when both parties are trying, so after some time we settled into that parallel parenting and that's how its been. She has never initiated D, and neither have I. I probably should have, but I never wanted a hand in finalizing our marriage. I wanted that to be all her if that's what she wanted. But, there have been a few things to note over the years though that have affected much in my life. Here's where my journaling actually starts...

After W moved out 5 years ago, I slowly started to move away from the anxiety and depression that BD and having a live-in wallower MLC caused in me. Once it began to lift, I felt remarkably better. I thought that I was beginning to come back to myself. And, I started to feel a little lonely. I think the stark difference in feeling overwhelming depression and anxiety (this was my first experience with that so I had no frame of reference) and the way I started to feel once it began to lift made me think I was better...but I wasn't. Anxiety going away is not the same thing as being mentally healthy. I know that now. But then, I decided to try and start dating a little due to the loneliness. After a little time on dating apps, I actually went on a few dates. I met a girl that I really liked. We had a LOT in common. We continued to date. As this was happening, things with W were the same. No D, barely talking, living separate lives. The woman I started dating is quite a bit different than W. Being in a relationship with her taught me a lot. The way she interacts, the way she loves, a great cook, really smart, sweet, and on an on. I realized that maybe my relationship with W wasn't as happy as I had remembered. Or, not that it wasn't happy, it was...but I guess I was just taking off the rose tinted glasses and seeing it for what it truly was. And I was then realizing that it might actually be possible to be happier with someone else. Someone who loved more like I did. Around this time I also began to realize that I had started dating too soon. That I had lots of baggage to work through and that I needed to get myself healed properly before I could really be what I needed to be for someone else. I explained this to my girlfriend. She understood and seemingly wanted to work through things with me as we had already grown close. So, we continued dating and our lives began to become more integrated. She met my kids, my family, and my friends. Everyone loves her and she is an amazing person. But, I also started realizing that she had quite a bit of baggage as well. She was severely abused as a child. She has no real family or support system. She was married for 18 years, but left her marriage due to it not being healthy. The life she described with her H sounded almost like living with a MLCer. Sleeping in separate rooms, doing a lot of stuff on their own, etc. But it wasn't MLC, they just had kind of a loveless marriage. She sees a therapist and is on AD medication. I began to figure out she had attachment issues. Our relationship began to become very much codependent. I was her one and only support system outside of her therapist. We loved each other, but I was also struggling with the W/kid situation and healing from that, which made me hesitant about moving forward in our relationship. That gave her anxiety because she saw that as me not choosing her and she needed to know that our relationship was heading towards marriage. During this time, my son was graduation high school and starting college, and my daughter is moving into her senior year, also looking at colleges. It is a very busy time and my bandwidth for everything has been stretched. This was not a good situation for my girlfriend. She needed more of my time and wanted to be more integrated into my life. She wanted us to move in together and start discussing marriage. I wanted to get my kids off to college without much more interruption to their home life while I also worked on getting things finalized with W...and maintain my relationship with girlfriend of course. But for me, having a girlfriend was enough for now, I wasn't quite ready for more than that. But, it became too much. At some point the stress of not knowing if we were going to be married got to her and she broke up with me. I believe that she was maybe bluffing and wanting me to fight back and try and save things and move them forward between us, but I couldn't do that because I knew that she wasn't happy and wouldn't be until I wanted to get married. But that isn't what I want right now. I do love her and care about her, but with everything that has been going on with my life, I realized that I didn't have the bandwidth for everything, so I swept my healing under the rug and tried to forget it. So after we broke up, I decided to take the time to get back to my healing. My girlfriend has been having a really bad time with things. We have been apart for going on 6 months now, but she is still depressed over our split. I am saddened by it too, but I realize that her depression was feeding my own and as much as I miss her, I need to worry about getting myself back on track before I can be anything to anyone in a healthy way. I am making progress in that regard and am healthier in mind and spirit than I have been in a long time, and am still getting better.

During all of this, I do still love W. It is such a messy thing. I'm not sure why I still do. She doesn't really deserve my love anymore. And I don't like the person she is now. I guess I still love the old W, but she doesn't really exist anymore. Part of me thinks that I need to be done with those feelings before I can move on, but another part of me wonders if I will just always feel that way a little and that I need to learn to move on without that being something that goes away. It has certainly been a stumbling block for moving forward with someone else, but that could be something that gets easier with time. It's hard to say at this point, but I bring it up to explain why the next part is still hard for me. Sometime while I was dating my girlfriend, W started dating a new guy. He is a little older than us, and he has some money I think. I really don't know much about him because I stopped any kind of snooping long ago. But we still have shared children so I see and hear things whether I want to or not. He seems like a weird choice, but...she has been in MLC, so I guess nothing is too weird. I have assumed it would just play itself out and she would tire of him after some time. Seems like a weird thought for someone trying to move on and dating someone themselves, but...like I said...I realize now that I started dating too soon. Anyways, she has been dating him for a few years now. I recently learned that he had moved to our side of town. In an email back and forth about my daughters college searching, W tells me that her and her OM are now engaged. He proposed and she said yes. I was a bit surprised to say the least. And, I also realized in that moment that despite being pretty detached, and despite trying to distance myself from the situation, that I had been standing all this time. I had been waiting for her to come back. I think in the back of my mind I knew this already, but it is something that I had been trying to swallow down and let time take care of. Her telling me that she was engaged (in the middle of a college email thread about my daughter) sparked a few back and forth emails. I would like to share a bit of that exchange as it left me...well, a little speechless at first. Here it goes:

W: "I have one other thing I wanted to bring up. OM and I got engaged the weekend before D and I left. I wanted to make sure you heard it from me. It was a bit of a surprise but I'm happy, and he treats me and the kids well. To be honest I still feel a sadness and regret that I couldn't make our marriage work and I know that is on me, and I will, I think, forever feel sorry to you for that, because I couldn't have asked for a better partner to raise out kids with. I mean...they are both pretty amazing, we did a good job. I have no doubt you will find someone, if you haven't already, who is openly loving, kind and you connect with, because you definitely deserve that. You've always been a catch.

I've already talked to the kids. OM has a house just north of downtown and we'll be moving in at the end of the summer, there is a room for both kids."

Me: "It's hard for me to know how to reply to this. Thank you for letting me know.

It seems like after all this time that it shouldn't matter to me anymore, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't still sting. I am not sure I'll ever understand what happened and why you decided to leave, but I guess at some point it doesn't really matter. We are where we are. I want to apologize to you. When you left, you told me that it was over between us and that I needed to move on with my life. I admit that I did not do that. I've loved you for what feels like my whole life, and I was not able to accept that it was over. Outwardly I tried really hard to move on, but there is a small piece of me that always thought that you would come back after some time. Even after you told me that, even after you stopped talking to me about anything other than the scheduling with the kids. I am sorry I did not accept it. I am not sure I could have done anything else at the time, but I think if I could have that it would have made things easier on both of us. But, regardless of any other feelings, I do want you to be happy. When you care about someone, how can you want anything else for them? I'm not sure I will ever understand how OM was the thing in your life that was missing that brings you happiness, but when you left you were not happy at all. If you are now, then that's all that really matters I guess. I hope that you can continue being happy with him, we all deserve happiness.

Having said that, I am and will be ok. I too will probably always be a little sad that you didn't want to make it work between us, but that feeling will not dictate the direction I take in life. It will just be a small sad reminder at the happiness I once had with you, whether shared or not.

Thank you for the good years that we had together. I will always cherish them."

W: "Me too, for sure! I love you, your family and the family we built together, always will.

I hope you know you definitely weren't the cause of my unhappiness, trust me, you were enough. I just wasn't enough for myself, I needed to find that and I did a few years back, before meeting OM and it felt like coming out of a dark fog. I'm just sorry I left such a path of destruction that I wasn't able to forgive myself for, in order to rebuild with you. Depression, now that I understand it a little better, is a dark passenger like that for me. If I had any sense about what it was or maybe listened to those who said I should get help, I could have kicked it out before I let it drive my life.

I really do appreciate how you stepped up for the kids when I seemed to have stepped out and also how we've been able to continue to co-parent together, and even this email reminds me of just how supportive and understanding you have been as a partner and a parent, so thank you for that."

This really left me a bit dumbstruck. It sounds as though she came through her MLC tunnel a few years ago. Or, that is what I thought after reading her reply. But, then I started to feel like something just still wasn't right, even though she said some of the magic words. (came out of a dark fog, admitted depression, sorry for what she did, wasn't my fault, etc). But, if she came out of it years ago and was sad how she treated me and couldn't forgive herself, why not say something then? Why not apologize then? And in telling me now, why sandwich that in an email about college for our daughter? And she is now happy with that guy enough to marry him despite never making any peace about what happened between us? And on top of that, we are still not divorced. I think she is not fully baked but has had a bit of awareness. I think she is about to make decisions that she will regret in a few years, despite how things play out between her and I.

So, that's it. I am single again but have an ex girlfriend that still loves me (and I her, although I am not in a place to be dating I realize), a S in year 2 of college, a daughter in her final year of high school already committing to a college in Massachusetts, and a W that is showing some MLC awareness while about to get married before even trying to divorce. The whole thing has me scratching my head in confusion. And, that would mean that our kids would be living with a man I don't know in a house I have never seen. I know that's what happens in these situations, but it still stings. My kids are older now and my S actually lives in Chicago now while going to school, so I am not actually worried about them, but it stings anyways.

Sorry for such a long post. I just really needed to get a few things off my chest. If you have read this far, thank you for reading along.

[DnJ]

Hello sj

How wonderful to hear from you. Thank you for sharing your summary/update so openly; I can certainly understand how emotions would stir given the recent events.

W’s engagement to OM, while she is still married to you, is quite a head scratcher. Her apology, acknowledgment and seeming awareness of her depression, not blaming you, admitting her inability to forgive herself, are all positive indicators like you said. Yet, something seems amiss.

This really left me a bit dumbstruck. It sounds as though she came through her MLC tunnel a few years ago. Or, that is what I thought after reading her reply. But, then I started to feel like something just still wasn't right, even though she said some of the magic words. (came out of a dark fog, admitted depression, sorry for what she did, wasn't my fault, etc). But, if she came out of it years ago and was sad how she treated me and couldn't forgive herself, why not say something then? Why not apologize then? And in telling me now, why sandwich that in an email about college for our daughter? And she is now happy with that guy enough to marry him despite never making any peace about what happened between us? And on top of that, we are still not divorced. I think she is not fully baked but has had a bit of awareness.

When a MLCer find acceptance, they may not return to who they once were. If fact, most times they won’t. Just as we have grown, so have they. In finding acceptance they see things clearly and are more healed and able to cope, and so on. They will have cast off the MLCer personality and those running behaviours, yet who finally emerges from that crucible is somewhat an unknown.

A person who successful navigates their crisis will, be definition, have to have grown and changed. Just look at us LBS, we grow and certainly become. A crisis individual will have likewise strengthened that which serves, and discarded that which doesn’t. (Crafting convictions they aspire to comes later for them.) Which parts would remain and which parts would be cast off, is impossible to predict.

Overall, upon such acceptance they are more themselves than when consumed by their crisis. Calmer, emotions in order, more rational, takes on responsibility, etc. It is a transformation, though less so than when entering their crisis.

However, before there can be acceptance for the MLCer, they have an awakening. Post such an awakening there is withdrawal and depression, then they start to find acceptance. I don’t recall W exhibiting withdrawal nor the dark deep depression of exiting a crisis. Perhaps W has experienced some awakening. She does seem to be peering out of the tunnel, and even stated many positive things to, and about, you. Given all that, I do agree with you, she is not yet done baking. Her actions smack of running. (Seriously!, engaged while still married. Did she forget?)

Anyhow, looking out the tunnel is just that, looking out. That is much different than being out of the tunnel. Exiting the replay stage is as confusing for them as entering it. They exist and see and live in two (or more) worlds. For example, methinks W sees and can obviously acknowledge all that past stuff, yet also is still running from something.

Did you and W get legally separated? Is divorce now just a submission to the courts? I don’t recall any separation, though I could very well be mistaken. At any rate, W has some work before her if she is going to proceed forward with her wedding plans.

I am glad you found this place to be such a benefit. Please feel free to share your journey, and your wisdom, as you see fit.

Also, would like me to link this thread to your last one? Or would you prefer to keep it as is?

Take care sj,

D

[sjohns6]

D,
It is so good to hear from you. Thank you, as always, for your thoughtful reply. It never ceases to amaze me at the level of care and consideration you put in to each reply. I think I've grown in my healing to the degree that I can mostly navigate things in a healthy way, but there is still no comparison to having an understanding ear. Someone who actually understands the journey we are on. I have a fair amount of support in my life, but it is hard for me not to see that these people are in my corner whether I am right or not and just want me to be happy. I want more than that. I want to understand and to be healthy. Thank you for helping me along that path. I appreciate YOU!

When a MLCer find acceptance, they may not return to who they once were. If fact, most times they won’t. Just as we have grown, so have they. In finding acceptance they see things clearly and are more healed and able to cope, and so on. They will have cast off the MLCer personality and those running behaviors, yet who finally emerges from that crucible is somewhat an unknown.

A person who successful navigates their crisis will, be definition, have to have grown and changed. Just look at us LBS, we grow and certainly become. A crisis individual will have likewise strengthened that which serves, and discarded that which doesn’t. (Crafting convictions they aspire to comes later for them.) Which parts would remain and which parts would be cast off, is impossible to predict.

Overall, upon such acceptance they are more themselves than when consumed by their crisis. Calmer, emotions in order, more rational, takes on responsibility, etc. It is a transformation, though less so than when entering their crisis.

In some ways, I think this is what has been confusing to me because she seems to fall under this description a little. She has been calmer (I think), taking on more responsibility, acknowledging past mistakes, and being kinder than before. I've began wondering if maybe this is just who she is now. But then there are still so many little weird things she does. Like, social media for example. Neither of us post on Facebook anymore. I removed her as my wife years on it years ago, but we are still on each others friends list. She will occasional post about the kids, but thats about it. She is also friends with OM (fiancé) on there and I see that he sometimes will make posts and tag her, but she has hidden posts from showing up on her timeline. So you only see it if you happen to be online when he makes them, or if you go to his page. She does not have him listed as dating, or make any posts about him. And anything he posts isn't on her page at all. Yet, she still has all of our family pics on there. Pictures of us kissing and whatnot. That just seems like something she would have changed if she was in love with a new guy about to get married. And how must that make him feel? In the grand scheme of things it is small, and I'm not trying to figure it all out really, it's just an observation that I feel like is in conflict with the direction she is going. It seems like if she was healthy of mind and spirit she would realize that things like that aren't healthy for a marital relationship.

However, before there can be acceptance for the MLCer, they have an awakening. Post such an awakening there is withdrawal and depression, then they start to find acceptance. I don’t recall W exhibiting withdrawal nor the dark deep depression of exiting a crisis. Perhaps W has experienced some awakening. She does seem to be peering out of the tunnel, and even stated many positive things to, and about, you. Given all that, I do agree with you, she is not yet done baking. Her actions smack of running. (Seriously!, engaged while still married. Did she forget?)

Anyhow, looking out the tunnel is just that, looking out. That is much different than being out of the tunnel. Exiting the replay stage is as confusing for them as entering it. They exist and see and live in two (or more) worlds. For example, methinks W sees and can obviously acknowledge all that past stuff, yet also is still running from something.

And I think this is the thing that helps me understand a bit better. Thank you. I think you are right. It is possible that she has come out of things and is just a different person now. And that COULD be the case, but I don't think that is all of it. I think you are right, she is peering out of the tunnel, but not actually out of it yet. She is still running from something, just maybe not at lightening speed like she was. I need to just go back to detaching from it. She'll do what she does, and I need to focus on me. She has a way of stirring things back up for me on occasion, but even though it may rattle me a bit, it doesn't take me down.

Did you and W get legally separated? Is divorce now just a submission to the courts? I don’t recall any separation, though I could very well be mistaken. At any rate, W has some work before her if she is going to proceed forward with her wedding plans.

We did not get legally anything. We divided our finances, she packed up half the stuff, we agreed on splitting time with the kids, and she moved out and we began living separate lives. That is all. Now, I should explain a little more. When we first came together we were young. After 6 years of dating, I began to plan proposing to her. I got my mom to take me ring shopping and helping me plan it. But, before I had a chance, she got pregnant. I then went ahead and proposed. I think at first she thought I had only proposed because of the baby, but luckily I had my mom to back me up that we had already been planning it. It isn't that she didn't want to marry, I think it just made it feel less special to think that it was just due to a pregnancy. It was important for me that she knew that wasn't the case. But, she also didn't want to have a big wedding while she was pregnant, so we decided to wait for a ceremony. We did need the insurance, though. So we had a friend sign a marriage certificate for us and we began presenting as married via the certificate, but we never filled a marriage license in the state. We were waiting for the ceremony to do that. But, shortly after my son was born she got pregnant with our daughter. Then...life. We had always planned at some point to have the ceremony, but life just got in the way. In our state (not sure how things differ in other areas) there is common law marriage. In that, if you live together and present as married for more than 4 years, it is the same as a marriage. If you separate after, you actually need to get a divorce to finalize things. Well, we lived as married, filed taxes as married, were married according to our jobs, insurance companies, on the mortgage, to our family and friends, etc. A simple google search tells you we have to get a divorce. So, I guess her decision not to get a divorce before remarrying could be out of some idea that it isn't needed due to not filing with the state originally, but like I said...a simple Google search proves that incorrect. Did she not care enough to even look in to it?

Thank you for letting me ramble. And again, thank you for your insight into trying to wrap my head around things. I hope your day is amazing!

[sjohns6]

Oh, and also thank you for the edit. I realized too late that I hadn't omitted a name. I appreciate you catching that!

And I also forgot about linking to the old thread. I am not sure how important that is to me, but I guess it would make it easier if anyone happened upon my thread and wanted to read any back history. I know I have certainly done that many times over. So, if you don't mind, yes...I would appreciate you linking my old thread THANK YOU!

[DnJ]

Hello sjohns

Threads all linked up.

Thanks for sharing the common law marriage. I agree, W could have some idea that she’s not “legally”married or she’s now common law divorced.

I did some research, confirming for my locale and your’s, that yes common law marriage has the same rights, privileges, and protections as married. And it requires a legal divorce to dissolve that union, once it is established, whether paperwork was filed with the government or not. Establishing or proving said union has certain criteria: like filing taxes as a couple; presenting yourselves as a couple, introducing each other as man and wife; and of course living together. When one party tries to deny the marriage, even joint bank statements and bills can establish the marriage’s validity.

I was surprised at how many other locales, different provinces and different states, do not hold common law marriage the same as married. In fact, common law divorce is actually a thing in those places. Well more, since you weren’t married, you don’t need a divorce. You basically can, more or less, just walk away. Separating such unions can get “legally” problematic when kids are involved and one or both partners are contesting things.

The deeper I followed the legal rabbit hole of common law marriage of these other locales, the more I realized it’s misnamed. It’s more a common law relationship than marriage. A relationship with some privileges like that a marriage - joint tax returns for example, yet not things like automatic joint property ownership. And it’s more privileges than rights too. In the event of death there is no “spousal” protection. Proof of joint ownership is very much required. Amazing the risk in these locales for such a common law couple.

Anyhow, your state and my province are pretty clear that a common law marriage is a marriage with all rights and privileges thereof. And a filed divorce is needed for ending such.

Well, back to fixing my hydraulic leak on my lawn tractor. Have a great day.

D

[Gerda]

OH MY GOSH, SJOHN!!!!

I came on here to tell DnJ about this trees podcast I am listening too. Jaw dropped seeing you had posted. Will write more soon but I think I tried to tell you a few times (not here but in that other land we found each other in) that I thought you still loved W or that something was off in there if you were so seriously dating someone without being divorced. So I am really glad you had all these realizations, you HAD to uncover all this in order to move forward.

I do not think W is going to get married. I think that thing will fizzle, whether they marry or not. I don't think she's done. I think she has to be a fiance, not a GF, to legitimize moving in together.

A few years is a blink of an eye. The longer time goes, if she is actually coming out of MLC, the more obvious it will be that SJohn was the catch she had already caught. Or she won't come fully out and ends up marrying him and that house built on sand will wash away. That's my prediction but obviously just musings.

I don't know what will happen obviously, and I don't know if it's too late to restore but it's interesting that you are still married, it is definitely not insignificant to this journey for either of you.

Also what you describe about the marriage pressure is a big no no no. I would never in a billion years pressure a man to marry me or move in with me. I haven't even gone on a date as you know though I would love to go out for dinner ONCE with a really nice smart guy who actually wanted to talk to me for an hour -- but the point is, I would never ever insert myself in his life in any way and in fact would just want to enjoy company without any pressure of entering each other's lives like that precisely because of my kids. I wouldn't want anything to impact my time with them at all, or to make them hang out with someone I liked if they wanted to just be home relaxing, etc. So I think your instincts on that were really good and I am really proud of you for being strong about knowing you needed to heal. That's so good and brave of you not to plunge forward just because you felt love and enjoyed her company! Think of how you've grown!

I'll write more soon. Sending you a huge hug.

P.S. I thought of you when I saw the tic tac ufo videos and the recent congressional hearings, and I really want to know what you think about all that!

[sjohns6]

Thank you for the thread link, D! And, you are not married to me, yet you still took some time to look it up! Why would she not have enough interest to look it up? We all have so many details in our stories that it's almost impossible to include EVERYTHING, but I'll add another snippet. When W sent me the email I quoted above, she sent it towards the end of the week. I happened to have my children that week. That means that she had told the children about her new engagement to OM the week prior, and they had been with me all week biting their tongues about it. What a terrible situation to put your kids through! After I found out, I immediately let my kids know that I knew. The first thing my son said was that he had asked about our marriage, and she told him that we were only common law married and didn't think we needed a divorce. He told me that he didn't think that sounded right so he looked it up and it wasn't right. So there you have it...the teenager (he is wise beyond his years, but still) thought about it for 2 minutes and thought it didn't sound right and looked it up to prove it false. Why wouldn't she have done the same thing?

Gerda!! It is so nice to see your name across my screen. Thank you for all you said about the girlfriend thing. It has been eating at me. It is nice to hear a bit of cheerleading in my corner regarding making the decision to heal, because it has not been an easy decision. She loves intensely and she provides a massive ego/self esteem boost in the way that she loves and admires. It is hard to let something like that go when feeling good about yourself in this situation is so hard to come by. Yes, the girlfriend situation was and has been hard. I dated too soon for sure, but I met someone I really liked and I thought I could make it work. Sometimes its hard to see things clearly from so close. I am still tying to figure that out as her and I are still in contact a little, but I feel stronger than ever and I recognize that being single right now is the best thing for me. I can feel the truth in that, so I am sticking to it.

I think you are right, W probably won't marry OM. Or, she may marry him, but I don't think her happiness lies with him. It will fizzle out. They will move in (or, they did that several weeks ago), get settled in to routine, and then get on with regular every day life. And then, her MLC stuff will begin creeping back in. And then, little by little I think she will slip back in to it. I think she must have settled a little bit of her depression, but I don't think she resolved any underlining issues. D mentioned above that he didn't remember hearing that she had any post MLC depression after exiting the tunnel. And as far as I can see, that is correct...she hasn't. It seems as though she just happily moved on. I'm not buying it, but I'm not sure it really matters anymore.

I am at a point where I am not sure reconciliation is really a possibility anymore. I have changed to the degree that I feel like I want more than even the old version of W is capable of. I want to be chosen, I want to be loved, and I want that love to be evident...I don't want to guess about it. I want to feel confident and trusting in my partner. I want my partner to care about how I feel and what I am interested in. I want to treat my partner the same. But, I do not see that in W. My door may still be open by a crack, but I think I am close to closing the door and turning the lighthouse light off. I never wanted that for us, but I did not make the decision for us to split. But I can make the decision to move on with my life and surround myself with people I care about and who care about me.

But I have a question. After reading what I have posted in my updates this week, do you think I should go ahead and file for divorce? I have been considering that I do indeed need to go ahead and file. If for no other reason then to protect myself from the decisions she is making. In the past I have considered this her decision and have been letting her take all the steps leading to and through our split. I have not had a hand in it. But, she is engaged to another man and I am not sure she is even planning to file, so I have been thinking that I should. She has more to lose than me, but its kind of the law that we get divorced before she can marry.

As always, thank you my LBS family for being here to support each other.

[DnJ]

Good Morning sjohns

I have a question. After reading what I have posted in my updates this week, do you think I should go ahead and file for divorce? I have been considering that I do indeed need to go ahead and file. If for no other reason then to protect myself from the decisions she is making. In the past I have considered this her decision and have been letting her take all the steps leading to and through our split.

I think that W feels she has taken all the steps through your spilt. Her view of getting engaged and marrying is that she can, no problems at all.

If you need protection, then get it.

In my understanding of the current state of your situation, you and W are cleaved financially. Not living together, no joint bills, no joint assets - it’s how you two are going about things day to day. Legally, the courts may have a different interpretation.

Custody is a non issue with both kids now being adults. There is providing education monies for a few more years to consider. In this, is she stepping up to the plate or not?

With her current mindset and pending plans on marrying, I’d suggest getting that divorce paperwork done. She likely won’t believe in the legal requirement of it. Still, you do know differently. Alimony, joint assets, financial liabilities (credit cards, loans, mortgages, etc), it would be good to get that all settled and out of the way.

You say she has more to lose than you. Maybe I’m misreading your need for financial protection.

Speak with a lawyer and see what way forward best suits your situation.

I am at a point where I am not sure reconciliation is really a possibility anymore. I have changed to the degree that I feel like I want more than even the old version of W is capable of. I want to be chosen, I want to be loved, and I want that love to be evident...I don't want to guess about it. I want to feel confident and trusting in my partner. I want my partner to care about how I feel and what I am interested in. I want to treat my partner the same. But, I do not see that in W. My door may still be open by a crack, but I think I am close to closing the door and turning the lighthouse light off.

We LBS grow. We become. Myself, I’m DnJ2.0. And like yourself, I’m not interested in reconciling with XW1.0. She needs to grow. I would not want to be with the gal she was, after all that gal cheated and burnt so many bridges. XW would also grow upon progressing through her crisis. XW2.0 as it were.

Would I be attracted to XW2.0, the person inside? Would she find me attractive? I’ve changed from DnJ1.0, she might not like who I am. I may not like who she is either. Or we might see more eye to eye than before. However, XW is still very much in replay so I cannot say.

You hit the nail squarely on the head, you know you don’t want W back; the previous version.

Something to consider. A lighthouse doesn’t shine for that one lost ship. It shines because it is. Do not extinguish your light. It matters not if W is following or not. You shine because of you.

I’ve closed the door on XW1.0. The door is open to the possibilities regarding XW2.0, if she even emerges. Perhaps, this clarity works for you too. You can be open to the possibility of W2.0 or W3.0 even. Just a gal you could date, if she were to cross your path. That’s all. And you aren’t sitting around pining/waiting for her, you are living and loving your life.

I am sorry your relationship with GF ended. From you account, it does sound like you (and her) entered into it too soon. I am proud of you, seeing your need for healing and wholeness. A most worthy pursuit and investment.

Life’s path is not about the destinations, it’s about the journey. I use wording like version, 1.0, 2.0, and becoming; yet those are not distinct end points. I will only stop having opportunity to become the man I’m meant to be, when I draw that final breath upon my deathbed. Until then, I have the agency to grow and effort towards that man. Oddly, I’ll never actual become him. Never be all I could be. For no matter how many days, if I had one more, I could grow a wee bit more.

Like I said, life’s a journey, not a destination.

D

[Eagle3]

Dear Sjohns,

I have to follow the advice D gave you. I would also file for divorce.

Where I live this could cause problems with inheritance, should one of you pass away.

Therefor I think it would be good to have this solved.

Strange but good to read that you and I are kind of in the same place in regards our feeling for EXW/EXH and towards a possible new R.

I'm actually dating (if you can call it dates) with several men now, but I'm very honest to them of what my current expectations are. I'm seeking merely new friendships, and who know this could turn out in more.

Have a nice day.

E.

[bttrfly]

Thank you for the thread link, D! And, you are not married to me, yet you still took some time to look it up! Why would she not have enough interest to look it up?

Because she doesn't care, can't be bothered, thinks she knows it all ... take your pick.

We all have so many details in our stories that it's almost impossible to include EVERYTHING, but I'll add another snippet. When W sent me the email I quoted above, she sent it towards the end of the week. I happened to have my children that week. That means that she had told the children about her new engagement to OM the week prior, and they had been with me all week biting their tongues about it. What a terrible situation to put your kids through!

Yes. My son overheard my exh on the phone with his AP the first night in his new apartment - 5 days after he insisted on telling son it was a "mutual decision" ... my son, who was 15 at the time, kept that information to himself for OVER 5 YEARS to protect me. I didn't find out until I called exh to beg his help with a serious health concern about our son and the AP answered the phone and told me she was his wife .... I'm sitting there in stunned silence thinking, 'how can he be married again and still covering my health insurance' ... but yeah. They do not give a flying Ef about anyone but themselves. I wish I'd accepted that a lot sooner. I would have saved myself a ton of pain and suffering.

After I found out, I immediately let my kids know that I knew. The first thing my son said was that he had asked about our marriage, and she told him that we were only common law married and didn't think we needed a divorce. He told me that he didn't think that sounded right so he looked it up and it wasn't right. So there you have it...the teenager (he is wise beyond his years, but still) thought about it for 2 minutes and thought it didn't sound right and looked it up to prove it false. Why wouldn't she have done the same thing?

Because they make stuff up in their heads:
* a narrative of what your relationship was that bears little resemblance to your reality
* what they think you will do when they do x, y, z
* what they WANT an outcome to be

AND they tend to get pretty upset when it doesn't play out the way they imagined it would.

I am at a point where I am not sure reconciliation is really a possibility anymore. I have changed to the degree that I feel like I want more than even the old version of W is capable of. I want to be chosen, I want to be loved, and I want that love to be evident...I don't want to guess about it. I want to feel confident and trusting in my partner. I want my partner to care about how I feel and what I am interested in. I want to treat my partner the same. But, I do not see that in W. My door may still be open by a crack, but I think I am close to closing the door and turning the lighthouse light off. I never wanted that for us, but I did not make the decision for us to split. But I can make the decision to move on with my life and surround myself with people I care about and who care about me.

But I have a question. After reading what I have posted in my updates this week, do you think I should go ahead and file for divorce? I have been considering that I do indeed need to go ahead and file. If for no other reason then to protect myself from the decisions she is making. In the past I have considered this her decision and have been letting her take all the steps leading to and through our split. I have not had a hand in it. But, she is engaged to another man and I am not sure she is even planning to file, so I have been thinking that I should. She has more to lose than me, but its kind of the law that we get divorced before she can marry.

As always, thank you my LBS family for being here to support each other.

This is a place all of us eventually get to -- some of us deciding that reconciliation is possible, while the vast majority of us realizing that we've grown from this experience and want something else for ourselves. In a very small percentage of those cases, it's possible for the former spouse to step up and a new relationship to evolve, but that is so very rare. We simply do not stay where they've left us, if we've done the real work involved in getting a life, personal growth and self reflection.

It's not an easy realization, tinged as it is with the sadness of the true loss of what we had, this time because WE are choosing something better/healthier for ourselves.

Only you can decide to file or not. Best advice I can give you follows:

1. Make sure you interview lawyers. Find out what your rights are. Make sure you interview several, so if you do decide to divorce, you've spiked her guns on who she can hire for herself. Yes, I know how that sounds. This isn't a ladies' tea. This is now a business that's dissolving and your partner in this business has proven untrustworthy, so take every advantage you can, as you can bet she'll do the same. Had I interviewed the nasty piece of work my ex hired I'd have saved him 5 figures in lawyer's fees and myself a lot of unneeded stress and aggravation.

2. Based on what they advise, hire one and do what feels right/makes sense to you. What you do has to sit well with your moral compass, and divorce proceedings can throw strange curveballs into the mix, so stay aware and stay in prayer!

3. Determine what you want. In my case, aside from the financial stuff, the most important thing to me was that my son would look back at this and say that I took the high road the majority of the time, and always put him first. Happy to say 8 years out I've achieved that goal, and nothing else matters to me.

Best of luck SJS, and keep us posted. xoxoxo I'm sorry it's come to this, but I have every confidence you will emerge stronger, with deeper faith, and happier in the long run. xoxoxo