Where to start with WAS

[lost___]

Wanting sex is normal. Different women enjoy sex daily, weekly, or monthly. I'm hearing the frequency worked for you for 2.5yrs, you got married, then it dropped off. Immediately? What changed--i.e., your living situation, your expectations for her, or how often you took her out on a romantic date? Sex doesn't usually drop off after 2.5yrs without kids.

Due to religious convictions, we did not have sex before marriage. She was not a virgin before we got married though and we discussed the importance of sex (frequency, expectations, etc). She was also much more flirty, showed sexual interest, and I thought we were on the same page. Then once we got married, almost immediately, she was completely disinterested and said a lot of emasculating things which made me feel rejected and unloved. Even early on, before we started having any kind of "problems", even though I initiated, she rejected me.

You have no idea what your role was in the marriage's demise?!

This is a standard question when dating.

You didn't respond to Steve's point about an IC. Especially if you have no idea where you went wrong, an IC would be a great investment. You don't want to repeat what just happened with her or anyone else. (You don't want to ruminate ad infinitum, either. There's a balance to introspection vs. moving forward with your life.) Your story is almost entirely about her faults.

Of course I do, but there is a difference between things I did or didn't do and something completely out of my control that would have led to the marriage's demise regardless. Lets posit that my fatal flaw in the marriage was NGS. Had I done things differently, would the outcome have been the same? I could look at some of my behaviors and say, yes, behavior X certainly didn't help and I can avoid doing that in the future in the next relationship. But was behavior X really the ultimate cause of the downfall of the marriage? Or was the marriage doomed because of something outside of my control. Introspection is useful to a point but there is no way to say with a certainty. I can just take what I've learned and try to do better next time. I know that I've laid out a lot of her faults, because I'm trying to figure out if I could have done differently, or if there was just no way it was ever going to work because fundamentally she was not committed to the marriage working.

For instance, one part of the cause of the marriage failing was that she was still attached at the hip to her parents. Since she lived at home through college, she never went through that period of time everyone usually goes through where you live independently from your family. Even though we lived close to her parents, I think she was homesick throughout the entirety of the marriage and one of the biggest reasons she wanted to leave the marriage is because she didn't want to change her life/routine for me any longer and wanted to go back to how it was before she got married. So when she moved out she moved back to her parents. Something like this is completely out of my control.

Although this part in DR is speaking about infidelity, the principle I think can be applied generally.

"If you suspect that your spouses lack of responsiveness may be due to his/her outside interests...suffice it to say that you are not to blame for the lack of progress in your marriage. It's likely that you are doing everything right but hitting up against a brick wall. If your partner's extramarital interests are secretive, it's especially difficult because it it prevents you from confronting the real issues in your marriage. And it prevents your spouse from seeing things clearly and from putting his/her soul into making your marriage work."

Im not naive enough to believe I did everything right. As part of MC, I did have individual sessions with the counselor. One thing she told me was that she didn't see my wife changing and that I did everything I could when I could but she (my wife) either couldn't, didnt want to, or didn't know how to reciprocate. I worked to meet her needs but she but she didn't want to be a wife.

I definitely do need to get back in IC at some point, mostly to help with the healing, but right now I'm not at a point financially where I can really spend money on a GOOD counselor. It is on my list of things to do though.

One of thing things our MC said to me when I called her back after the session my then-W finally admitted to the affair and that she wanted a D is "You should think about what it says about you that you'd want someone in your life who betrayed you." I think about that a lot. To me I was trying to save my marriage and family and didn't want my kids to go through a divorced life, but looking back I was almost certainly acting out of fear for myself as well about being a failure in marriage and not finding someone else. Time has given me a lot more perspective there. So I ask you a similar question...in the ways your describe your W not meeting your needs and making everything but you the priority...what about all that makes you want to keep her in your life?

Yea, thinking about this torments me. I vacillate between wanting her back and wanting to move on. I think about the betrayal and if she were to come back, would she betray me again down the road? Why waste the time only to be betrayed again in the future. I know its irrational to hold on to someone who has rejected you.

Hang in there Joshua and keep posting. There are a lot of folks here who have experienced what you're going through and glad to give their time to help.

Thank you BL42, I appreciate your post. You as well Traveler, LH19, and SteveLW.

[wayfarer]

Ok I have so many questions, like, I understand vagueness for the sake of anonymity but I'm missing huge chunks of information here. So help me out here.

What I've gathered thus far is you have a wife who hasn't lived in the home with you for a year and half. With whom you've only spoken to 3 times in the last 12 months. Your W is 7 years younger than you and went from her parents' house to yours. You never connected physically in any real sense. No sex before marriage and barely any after.

Now comes the questions for clarity. So you were only married like a year before she left? Is that right? How long was she having an EA for before she moved out? Was there only one EA that you're aware of? When was MC in proximity to the leaving/having left? Has anyone filed for divorce yet or informed the other about lawyers? How separate are your lives right now particularly regarding your finances? Last and I only ask this because I haven't seen any one ask this yet. Why is it that you want to save this marriage exactly? You have no kids and from what I can tell because the MR was so short no real shared property. So it's got to be about her? Or you? Or the relationship? But from everything you've written here you hated your sex life, you aren't a huge fan of her personality right now, you feel as if she drove your relationship off a cliff while you stood by helplessly and that you've been deeply betrayed. So what's here that you want to save? I'm not asking that to be a jerk by the way. I'm truly asking you from a place of honesty and vulnerability what are you standing for?

[lost___]

Ok I have so many questions, like, I understand vagueness for the sake of anonymity but I'm missing huge chunks of information here. So help me out here.

What I've gathered thus far is you have a wife who hasn't lived in the home with you for a year and half. With whom you've only spoken to 3 times in the last 12 months. Your W is 7 years younger than you and went from her parents' house to yours. You never connected physically in any real sense. No sex before marriage and barely any after.

Now comes the questions for clarity. So you were only married like a year before she left? Is that right? How long was she having an EA for before she moved out? Was there only one EA that you're aware of? When was MC in proximity to the leaving/having left? Has anyone filed for divorce yet or informed the other about lawyers? How separate are your lives right now particularly regarding your finances? Last and I only ask this because I haven't seen any one ask this yet. Why is it that you want to save this marriage exactly? You have no kids and from what I can tell because the MR was so short no real shared property. So it's got to be about her? Or you? Or the relationship? But from everything you've written here you hated your sex life, you aren't a huge fan of her personality right now, you feel as if she drove your relationship off a cliff while you stood by helplessly and that you've been deeply betrayed. So what's here that you want to save? I'm not asking that to be a jerk by the way. I'm truly asking you from a place of honesty and vulnerability what are you standing for?

Dated for 2.5 years, married for 3 years before she separated, been separated for 1.5 years since. MC was for 4 months after she separated.

I dont know when the actual EA started exactly. The AP was a high school friend of hers who came back into her life about a year into our marriage. She had mostly guy friends before marriage so I didn't think anything of it, and I also trusted her. Red flag I know, and I now know I was naive. I actually felt secure in our relationship until she started to break my trust and I caught her in several lies. She turned really secretive near the end before she separated (which I picked up on). I definitely became insecure. No other APs as far as Im aware.

Financially, we share nothing. No papers filed and no lawyers are involved at the moment (at least to my knowledge).

Whats here that I want to save? Well I certainly dont want to save what obviously wasn't a very good marriage. But I married her because she was my best friend and I truly believe that if both of us were really committed to strengthening that friendship, that our marriage would thrive and the intimacy would follow. My hope was to work together on that and I saw a lot of potential, but my vision for the marriage never materialized. I guess I'm still clinging to what could be/could have been.

Plus, because of my religious convictions, I believe that God always wants us to reconcile if possible. I've been holding out hope that reconciliation is possible, but that hope has diminished almost entirely at this point.

you feel as if she drove your relationship off a cliff while you stood by helplessly and that you've been deeply betrayed.

I think thats a great description of how I feel/what happened actually. I'm actually laughing at how accurate this feels to me.

[Traveler]

I certainly dont want to save what obviously wasn't a very good marriage. I guess I'm still clinging to what could be/could have been.

That's usually what we cling to. My last partner and I had great sex multiple times each week and amazing adventures for years--but she had a temper. It is what it is. You can't cobble people together into the Bride of Frankenstein.

Then once we got married, almost immediately, she was completely disinterested and said a lot of emasculating things which made me feel rejected and unloved.

I see. You waited for 2.5yrs to explore sexual chemistry and found it lacking. First times, and first times with a new partner are sometimes awkward because you're still learning about each others' preferences and what works together. You describe her as stonewalling you late in the relationship. Early on it sounds like she was communicating that something was wrong. The "emasculating" comments make it sound more like incompatibility than disinterest for her. I get she didn't phrase her concerns in the most empathetic way, and you took them personally. Were you able to hear her despite that and try to meet her needs? When did she stop communication? Once the communication dies, it's hard to imagine a marriage succeeding.

[Mumin]

Josh, sounds like some really tough times! I can really relate to NGS and her lack of responsiveness.
You are getting good help. Read it more than once and take time to digest.
I think they might’ve been mentioned but
1. Read love must be tough
2. And Intimacy & desire
Imo you NEEEED both of those books for yourself.

[SteveLW]

you feel as if she drove your relationship off a cliff while you stood by helplessly and that you've been deeply betrayed.

I think thats a great description of how I feel/what happened actually. I'm actually laughing at how accurate this feels to me.

You realize this isn't true though, right? Even if your only contribution to the failure of the marriage was ignoring obvious red flags, then you still were more than just a helpless bystander.

[lost___]

I see. You waited for 2.5yrs to explore sexual chemistry and found it lacking. First times, and first times with a new partner are sometimes awkward because you're still learning about each others' preferences and what works together. You describe her as stonewalling you late in the relationship. Early on it sounds like she was communicating that something was wrong. The "emasculating" comments make it sound more like incompatibility than disinterest for her. I get she didn't phrase her concerns in the most empathetic way, and you took them personally. Were you able to hear her despite that and try to meet her needs? When did she stop communication? Once the communication dies, it's hard to imagine a marriage succeeding.

It wasn't awkward at all. But she was definitely disinterested and it was a dead bedroom throughout the whole marriage. I personally believe she had hang ups because she didn't want to get pregnant (didn't want kids). The stonewalling was at the beginning of the marriage as well. No communication and she made me feel guilty for asking her to meet my needs. It wasn't for my lack of trying but talking to her was like talking to a brick wall. She couldn't see through her own wants and needs to compromise with me to meet my own needs.

Josh, sounds like some really tough times! I can really relate to NGS and her lack of responsiveness.
You are getting good help. Read it more than once and take time to digest.
I think they might’ve been mentioned but
1. Read love must be tough
2. And Intimacy & desire
Imo you NEEEED both of those books for yourself.

Im almost done with "Love Must Be Tough" now. I think its a perfect description of what happened in my marriage, especially with the affair. The marriage couldn't work because of a lack of respect, which I always felt was an issue. Of course I reacted to the disrespect in all the wrong ways.

Is "Intimacy & Desire" the one by Dr. David Schnarch? I'll pick that one up too

you feel as if she drove your relationship off a cliff while you stood by helplessly and that you've been deeply betrayed.

I think thats a great description of how I feel/what happened actually. I'm actually laughing at how accurate this feels to me.

You realize this isn't true though, right? Even if your only contribution to the failure of the marriage was ignoring obvious red flags, then you still were more than just a helpless bystander.

You are right. Being almost finished with "Love Must Be Tough", I was way too passive and allowed her to walk all over me.

[SteveLW]

you feel as if she drove your relationship off a cliff while you stood by helplessly and that you've been deeply betrayed.

I think thats a great description of how I feel/what happened actually. I'm actually laughing at how accurate this feels to me.

You realize this isn't true though, right? Even if your only contribution to the failure of the marriage was ignoring obvious red flags, then you still were more than just a helpless bystander.

You are right. Being almost finished with "Love Must Be Tough", I was way too passive and allowed her to walk all over me.

Josh, having said all of that, it doesn't justify her breaking her marital vows. So while you're not completely innocent, you weren't the one that bailed and stepped out on the marriage.

Important because of your religious beliefs (which I share).

[wayfarer]

You are right. Being almost finished with "Love Must Be Tough", I was way too passive and allowed her to walk all over me.

Yeah it's kinda feeling like you're cherry picking info here. Women lose respect for their husbands over resentment. If you weren't cheated on out of the gate, the likelihood that you were "walked all over" the whole relationship (which seems to be a total of 3 years) is slim to none. On top of that, you guys were together such a short period of time the amount of resentment that needs to build up to create the kind of complete disregard and disrespect needed doesn't fit. Your WAW is much younger than almost every WAW here. You lived together for next to no time. You have no kids. No shared assets. And currently the way you're framing things you're making it seem like you sacrificed a ton for an emotionally immature, child bride who treated you like crap, unfortunately I'm really struggling to believe that's what really happen in your marriage. And I don't know that I'm the only one.

Most LBS go through phases. First phase is usually everything is my fault. Next is everything is their fault. Followed by even if some of it was my fault what they did was way worse so it's still their fault. Then it eventually, after a lot of time and work they reach, we both did some really detrimental things to our marriage, and even though this isn't what I wanted OR how I wanted it it's probably for the best.

Being here for a few years now I see a lot of LBHs get stuck at everything is the WW/WAWs fault, or some of it was my fault but what WW/WAW did was worse so this is still all their fault. It seems, like you either skipped over it's my fault and went straight to it's her fault or are getting stuck some where in one of these phases. k.

I'm also getting very tripped up with the status of your MR right now. It's such an anomalous MR here, I don't even know where to direct you. But not in the way you think. We get a lot of LBHs who think they've done no wrong. We get a lot of WAWs who are practically allergic to change. We even get MRs where the spouse have been separated for quite some time. Even ones that have spouses living in different countries while the MR is falling apart. What we don't get a lot of is a person who is trying to save the MR when it's been more than year since the WAS has moved out, the WAS isn't speaking to the LBS willingly, and the spouses have absolutely no reason to speak to each other. Almost every person we get has daily/weekly/monthly contact with their WAS depending on their situations. They have something that keeps them tied together other than the legally binding paperwork. Kids, money, businesses, property. Something. But you guys don't, and because of that I'm really struggling with what it is you plan on saving here, and why you think you have a chance of saving it. Maybe you can do some more clarifying for me.

On one hand you say she's your best friend, on the other you say she walks all over you. While two things can be true these two things can't be. Some one who is your best friend doesn't walk all over you. Why would you want to be married to a person who walks all over you? Why would you want to be best friends with someone who doesn't have your best interests in mind?

You cited religious reason for wanting to make things work, but I didn't see a thing about you loving her. You do however say you don't think she ever really loved you. Other than religious obligation why are you hanging on like this?

As far as I can tell she has zero interest in seeing you, speaking to you, and you have no means for which to communicate at regular intervals over neutral topics with each other, what we like to call business, because there is none. She's moved out, moved on, and all but filed for divorce. Correct? Do you guys still go to the same church or something? Do you work together? Have the same favorite lunch spot? How and when do you see each other? What reasons would you have to speak with one another outside of divorce proceedings at this point?

And just to be clear I'm not saying you don't have a snowball's chance in h3ll here. There's always a chance. Humans are weird unpredictable creatures who love the comfort of the familiar. There is always a chance. I've no agenda one way or the other. I am however, desperately trying to understand what it is that we can do to help in your sitch. So if you can articulate it why are you truly trying to save a MR that has been effectively over for more than a year at this point? Why do you want to be married to a person you think is a pretty crummy person as a whole? What steps have to taking to actively detach, GAL and 180 the most basic tenets of DBing? How long to you plan to stand for this MR? Why are you standing for this MR? What would it take for you to be the first to file for D? And what is it that we here on this board can do to support your journey?

[Mumin]

Quick response.

Is "Intimacy & Desire" the one by Dr. David Schnarch? I'll pick that one up too

Yes. I had to get mine second hand as it is not printed anymore (at least where I live)

Adding to what wayfarer wrote.
“ Just because something's not your fault doesn't mean it's not your responsibility. Our ability to act and change is proportional to the amount of responsibility we take on for ourselves.

Fault is past tense. Responsibility is present tense. Fault results from choices that have already been made. Responsibility results from the choices you’re currently making every second of every day. ”

The reason I recommend Love must be though was to help your orientation of where you are in the process. So now after reading it and given it doesn’t matter who’s at fault, what do you think you need to do to take responsibility for yourself in your CURRENT situation?

Answering the questions in wayfarers last paragraph is a good start.

Big ups for reading the book and starting to do the work needed.