My Story P3...Acceptance of the MLC Madness

[DnJ]

Hello Eagle

Damn, I have formulated it wrongly again. Not mother tongue…😊

Not at all my dear. You speak quite eloquently.

I was wondering how convinced you are. You and I are friends and I figured I could just ask and prod a bit to see how firmly you believe it.

I firmly believe this is what I have to do.
I told my mother a few days ago that I’m convinced I have to do this, as otherwise I would regret it.
So yes, I can definitely say this statement, without a doubt, I’m not a doubter at all. Never have been.

Lol. I wrote my couple of sentences up there ^^^ and then read the next quote. Ha.

Yes, you firmly believe and are strongly convinced. By the way, I didn’t doubt you for a second.

Normal H has always been a person who had difficulties formulating what he wants, definitely when it concerns emotions. He can show it but can’t express it.

Given that H has expressed his wishes previously. Do continue gently leading and guiding somewhat. These lost souls do need to learn how to express their emotions and they usually have not had very good role models during their informative years. It’s ok to shine and display how to do that.

I have difficulties answering this part. I simply don’t know yet if I want to delay the D, and I definitely don’t know what he wants and for this you need to be with 2.

It’s ok not to know.

Again, I asked, prodded, and was wondering how convinced and sure you are.

My general advice/suggestion is unless you are absolutely sure, don’t do things that are this difficult to undo. Unless you require financial protection or security; then for sure proceed.

Would you, in my case, start the conversation about delaying when there is progress noticeable, or would you let him lead (which I think he won’t)?
What if he says, “definitely not, why would you want to do that?”
I want to be prepared.

Given what I know about your situation and you:

I agree, H is unlikely to lead proposing a delay before mid-December.

He is showing positive signs and progress.

I’d start the conversation and suggest delaying the divorce for a bit.

One of the biggest reasons - No OW. This is a huge signal and sign of progress. It takes a lot for such a troubled person to let go of that affair and start facing their life and what they’ve done.

H’s steps so far are no small deal. Yes, he has much still left to walk, yet he has done well. Your conversation could be geared towards two prongs of thought and influence. First, you are seeing improvement and liking what you see. Second, he is demonstrating positive behaviours and changes. And is worth delaying things for.

Now, I realize this is a pretty big heap of pressure to H. However, people do aspire to meet goals. People will meet the goals that are set either by them or others. If those goals are not challenging then people just slide along. If the goals are way too high, they give up. Something I’ve always found when dealing with people - let them amaze you by just how much they can accomplish.

Placing the bar for H just high enough and reflecting his worthiness and growth will encourage more positive behaviours.

A MLCer cannot handle pressure. However, H is not in full blown MLC, he is displaying signs of awakening. Go slow and gently; he may just amazing you.

If H response negatively; “definitely not, why would you want to do that?”; don’t fret. You just stay the course. Shrug it off and keep moving. There really is nothing to lose.

I know you are strong enough and interested enough to explore this. Sure, there is risk. And there is reward. I’d love to be in such a position that this was even possible with XW.

If you have any ideas or such you want to test run or get feedback on. Or want to discuss other strategies before the conversation day. I am available.

One last thing. This is not manipulation. You are only influencing H. Gently steering the conversation and his thinking. H still has to walk his path. Still has to finish his crisis. And I believe he might be now ready for such influence.

Best wishes.

D

[Eagle3]

Yes, you firmly believe and are strongly convinced. By the way, I didn’t doubt you for a second.D

LOL, I was in the believe you indeed knew me already that well by now.
BTW, very nice to hear I'm your friend.

I’d start the conversation and suggest delaying the divorce for a bit.

One of the biggest reasons - No OW. This is a huge signal and sign of progress. It takes a lot for such a troubled person to let go of that affair and start facing their life and what they’ve done.

H’s steps so far are no small deal. Yes, he has much still left to walk, yet he has done well. Your conversation could be geared towards two prongs of thought and influence. First, you are seeing improvement and liking what you see. Second, he is demonstrating positive behaviours and changes. And is worth delaying things for.

I know you are strong enough and interested enough to explore this. Sure, there is risk. And there is reward. I’d love to be in such a position that this was even possible with XW.

If you have any ideas or such you want to test run or get feedback on. Or want to discuss other strategies before the conversation day. I am available.D

YESSSSSS! I can use some help here on how to start this conversation.

I'n the meanwhile I want to share some of our conversation and what I have seen...

Since yesterday he is back home. So Saturday decided to come back to home country "permanently" (of course we never know this with an MLC'er .
Arrived already yesterday with all his belongings. It seems he couldn't wait to come home. You should have seen his suitcases...everything was literally thrown in. I've never seen such thing before...

In the car on the way back from the airport he was very quite. I initiated talking a bit and then he became more chatty.

He asked about the children and what they think about the fact he will be living in the house. I answered very honestly, 2 are OK with it, one is keeping his guard down, no faith at all in his F, he understood.

Then about his awareness that he slipped back the past weeks into "the other room in his head".

About the fact he needs to process the loss of the R with OW2, so finally he admitted this way he had an R with her.

That he has had very good times in that country but also really bad times. And, at one point, a very interesting question he asked himself out loud:
If I look back at the past 3 years, I'm 42 years old, how did I end up in such situation, that is not appropriate for someone my age.

Didn't really know what to answer there...so kept quiet.

I kept my calm at all times. We had a pleasant evening. I'm fully detached. When I look at him, I feel love, but I'm not in love with him anymore. For me this is the place I wanted to be in.
I'm OK with either direction. If it is meant to be perhaps I can fall in love again, if not, so be it.

I have lived a day at a time for the past 3 years, never tried to look upfront anymore, although it was difficult to accept this in the beginning, this seems to be the perfect way to live my life, and I have the advantages of this now.

Have a great day!!

[DnJ]

Hello Eagle

YESSSSSS! I can use some help here on how to start this conversation.

Let’s take a look at what’s currently going on and see what we can come up with. We’ll merge some bridging strategies with his current emotional state and see if any of it resonates with you.

Arrived already yesterday with all his belongings. It seems he couldn't wait to come home. You should have seen his suitcases...everything was literally thrown in. I've never seen such thing before...

It seems H is quite eager. Even excited. This is good. It always better when one is looking forward to something rather than dreading it. We’ll keep that in mind. Keep the conversations ones that H looks forward to. Wants to run to, not run from.

H is like a teenager still. He is excited about this and dreading it. Encourage the positive.

In the car on the way back from the airport he was very quite. I initiated talking a bit and then he became more chatty.

Yes, H is rather non-initiating. That’s ok. You start, let H joining, with whatever subject he becomes chatty about. It looks like he is ok with talking, you just got to get him going.

Remember, he is starting to actually see what he did. That is not something easily brought up.

Then about his awareness that he slipped back the past weeks into "the other room in his head".

Slipping and backsliding is normal and expected. I didn’t expect H to actually realize so well. I am surprised. He realizes, well maybe he cannot define it yet, but he realizes he is/was mentally and emotionally compartmentalizing. The “other room in his head” is excellent self realization. To see that you are doing that. Really good to see. A very good sign.

About the fact he needs to process the loss of the R with OW2, so finally he admitted this way he had an R with her.

Excellent!!!

This is great.

Admitting one’s faults is a huge step. However, the really big step here - admitting it to you.

H is looking for guidance. He is looking for acceptance. He is looking for forgiveness. First from you. He needs to know and believe that you accept him with this past affair. You need to remain calm and just validate. No arguing. No fighting. No blaming him. I know, I know, it’s very unfair. You have to be the bigger person. Remember scared squirrel.

The second person he is looking for acceptance and forgiveness and love is the hardest one - himself.

This is what being a beacon is about. Being the lighthouse. H does not love himself. He does not forgive himself for what he has done. He cannot accept it. Yet.

Like teaching a kid, you accept, love, and forgive him. You demonstrate how to forgive and love through your actions and conversations with him. Mostly your actions. Kind, compassionate, understanding, etc… He will see, watch, learn, and apply what he sees. Slowly he will learn to love himself and forgive himself. Then he will love others.

It’s an interesting thing to gauge how someone else is inside. People often project themselves upon the world. For example, a liar believe everyone lies. A thief would never trust enough to leave his belongings just sitting out in a table.

How kind or loving someone is interesting. One must first love themselves before they can love someone else. Seeing how they treat others is an indicator of how they are inside. How they treat an animal even more so.

For example, back when dating J, we went to pet stores. We wanted to purchase a ferret and eventually did. Not the point . The cute young animals. How people treated them gives insight into them. Some grab these defenceless fur babies, others basically ignore them, and others lovingly and gently pick them up and carefully caress them. Who demonstrates more empathy and love? if one cannot display it to a cute wee baby, it is highly likely they ain’t got it in them. They are still maturing or didn’t get enough hugs or whatever.

That he has had very good times in that country but also really bad times. And, at one point, a very interesting question he asked himself out loud:
If I look back at the past 3 years, I'm 42 years old, how did I end up in such situation, that is not appropriate for someone my age.

Didn't really know what to answer there...so kept quiet.

When you really don’t know, just acknowledge his statement. I get it, often quiet seems like the best. Often times, it is not. I don’t think H is talking just to talk. He wants to be heard. He is looking for feedback. Looking to see if you are going to explode /yell or be understanding.

The other thing, he doesn’t necessarily need a solution. Just acknowledgment and letting him continue. In fact, limit solving his problems for him. You can guide a bit, and ask some thought influencing questions, which will likely keep him walking along just fine.

Remember, he is and will be far worse on himself than you will ever be. He is awakening to all his guilt and blame. No need to add to his pile.

Love the sinner, forgive the sin.

Live that. Demonstrate that. Your light will shine and influence growth.

Anyhow, that’s my starting view and ideas of things. The theory and background to keep in mind and help in figuring the direction you wish to travel. With that, let’s talk.

E: H, it’s nice having you home. I do enjoy sharing a meal with you.

H: Yes, you are such a good cook. My goodness I missed this good food.

E: Well thank you. And missed your company. (Nice body language and tone.)

(H eating)

H: You know I wasn’t alway happy during those three years.

E: I didn’t really know that. How was it then?

(And so on)

(Creative liberties aside. Eventually the conversation will move into more relationship territory.)

H: You know, I still care and feel you are still the girl for me.

E: You mentioned that another time as well.

H: Yeah.

E: Let me ask you something.

H: Sure

E: I’m thinking we could delay the divorce. How would you feel about that?

H: I’d like to. But I thought you wanted it.

E: Things are better at the moment and I’m willing to explore and see where this leads.

(And it continues)


Of course, it’s more on the fly. Just be authentic.

No matter how things start, at some point I think you just need to speak straightforwardly and just ask. That is the least pressure. It’s not tied to anything. Just a question.

I kept my calm at all times. We had a pleasant evening. I'm fully detached. When I look at him, I feel love, but I'm not in love with him anymore. For me this is the place I wanted to be in.

Are you able to lower your walls? Can you switch in and out of indifference? Can you turn it on and off at will?

You will likely need to be patient and at times indifferent, and at other times let your feelings show. Don’t fret, you will do fine.

I hope this made some sense. Ask anything you like. It’s been a very long day and I might be not as clear as I am hoping to be.

Take care

D

[Eagle3]

Thank you DnJ for your kind email.

I really enjoyed your phrasing…trust me…H is definitely not there yet, whether it will ever come is the question, but that's his path, I need to keep following my own.

the past 4 days went extermely well, yesterday the first clash with S17.

However, the evening had started in a very good way. H and I talked for a long time.

He started talking about the M, then about the D. He wants to continue with it.

He wants me to be free as he can't give me what I'm entitled to yet, but he did say that I am the person he loves the most and that it always will be me.
The 2 relationships he had the past years have never worked out because he can't let go of us.
He also hurt those 2 people a lot. He was the worst version of himself in that country where he lived for the past year he said.

Can never forgive himself for the pain he caused everyone. He says he is depressed and that he doesn't want to live anymore at certain times.

About the D he also sees that it was only about a piece of paper and that if it must be we can come back together in the future, that this will not stop him if he can give me back what I want, of course if I haven't already moved on with my life with someone else. He wants me to be happy. I told him I'm happy. (which is the truth, with or without him)

S17 wants to punish his father for what happened. His behavior is very difficult at the past days.
He opposes to his father.

Of course I was also involved. H's immediately takes on the role of victim, as well as blaming me, I have not been able to control myself either unfortunately. (Is he feeling pushed in a corner?)

His reasoning is that he is superfluous here after all this time. That we are attuned to each other with 4 and that no one listens to him. That if he makes a rule, they won't follow it without my consent. That only my opinion counts for them. (which I must admit is correct,but I guess this is normm, the children have to get used to this situation again)

He wanted to leave today. In the end he didn't. This afternoon we will go for a long walk together. He had suggested this before the clash himself yesterday. Has just now agreed to still go. He wants to talk.

I am worried. Worried about the fact that maybe I shouldn't have let him come home yet, for the sake of the children.

This will be an incredibly difficult process, but I have to put my children first.
Will see how it goes the following days.

[Eagle3]

He also said he thinks I still have to much expectations, and that this feels like pressure to him.
F.e. If we talk about a movie he saw and I didn’t I would say, ‘OK, we can watch it this week’. I need to say, I’ll watch it, not we. For him this feels like ‘us’ and he can’t commit to ‘us’.

But in the end we’ll still watch it together, so what’s the difference…

So need to get my wording right 🙄😳

[DnJ]

Good Morning Eagle

Oh my goodness you are lucky.

A MLCer, especially went they are coming back, cannot help themselves spilling the beans. (Talking about what’s going on, in case you do not recognize the reference.) You are doing wonderfully. Just listen, validate, and H keeps filling in more and more details. Dig for patience my dear.

He started talking about the M, then about the D. He wants to continue with it.

Ok. Let him.

Remember, believe nothing they say and only half of what they do.

If you would like to give ample time to see where this goes, let him do the heavy lifting. You cannot make him change his mind, you can only control you. And you can “not block his way”, yet not do it for him, all while still observing. See if his actions match his words.

In my opinion, his words and actions do not match. He’s at home. There is a part of him that wants to be there. He is confused and under a lot of pressure.

He wants me to be free as he can't give me what I'm entitled to yet, but he did say that I am the person he loves the most and that it always will be me.

Pretty confused and depressed guy right there.

He is looking for you to make a decision for him. Do not take the bait. You make your decision for you.

To be blunt, get divorced for you if that is what you want. H, if he really wants a divorce, needs to find the will to do it. He needs to take responsibility for his decision and action. And the consequences that come from it. Note: Deciding to delay is also possible and has consequences and benefits for him. Interesting to consider if he will see that.

The 2 relationships he had the past years have never worked out because he can't let go of us.
He also hurt those 2 people a lot. He was the worst version of himself in that country where he lived for the past year he said.

Can never forgive himself for the pain he caused everyone. He says he is depressed and that he doesn't want to live anymore at certain times.

Just look at all the information that tumbles out.

H is admitting things to you, which is actually admitting it to himself. He is also looking to see how you are going to react. And keeps giving you the option of leaving because he doesn’t feel he deserves forgiveness or compassion. And that stems from lack of forgiveness and compassion for himself.

This is an awakening. Hopefully, it will endure and H can continue its path.

Depression is the first major milestone/stage. H’s anger and hurt has been lashed outward towards you, parents, friends, the world; and he has run and frolicked with others in a futile attempt to stop his ceaseless pain.

None of that has worked. H has said it!

Now, his hurt and anger turns inward. And anger turned inward becomes depression. As deep and dark a depression as you had, times it by two or four or maybe more. A MLCers depression matches the depth of their crisis.

As H works through his depression; and he will if he has the strength and not too much external pressure; he will withdrawal. He will withdrawal from everyone and everything. From the world. He is now in a fight with himself. This is probably the most critical time in recovery. A MLCer has to walk this dark lonely path.

When they emerge, they will be different. A grown up person, still timid, ashamed, guilty, and such; yet matured. They will roll up their sleeves and go about repairing their lives and those around them.

A very brief summary of H’s mindset and possible/probable(?) outlook.

By the way, suicidal thoughts are very common. And if he is talking about it, that’s a good thing. He is getting his feelings out and letting them go.

S17 wants to punish his father for what happened. His behavior is very difficult at the past days. He opposes to his father.

Of course I was also involved. H's immediately takes on the role of victim, as well as blaming me, I have not been able to control myself either unfortunately. (Is he feeling pushed in a corner?)

His reasoning is that he is superfluous here after all this time. That we are attuned to each other with 4 and that no one listens to him. That if he makes a rule, they won't follow it without my consent. That only my opinion counts for them. (which I must admit is correct,but I guess this is normm, the children have to get used to this situation again)

S17’s behaviour is pretty normal. A lad of 17 is already rebelling and pushing against his parent(s). Mix in H and son’s feelings regarding Dad’s indiscretions, and there is going to be some lashing out.

As best you can, keep out of this. S17 and Dad need to find their way.

And yes, after so many years, Dad’s voice and command is evaporated at home. In time, and with consistent demonstrated behaviour Dad will be listened to again.

He also said he thinks I still have to much expectations, and that this feels like pressure to him. If we talk about a movie he saw and I didn’t I would say, ‘OK, we can watch it this week’. I need to say, I’ll watch it, not we. For him this feels like ‘us’ and he can’t commit to ‘us’.

Pressure Alert!

When his say too much pressure. Back off. Way off.

He told you directly what is hurting inside. He wants to and (for the moment) cannot commit to the concept of “us”. So, do watch your wording.

His lack of committing probably makes you hurt. Or mad/sad. Somewhat. However, his lack of committing is a good thing. It shows he knows what commitment is, and more importantly what commitment takes. And he wants to find it. Think about that. That’s pretty darn amazing.

But in the end we’ll still watch it together, so what’s the difference…

Everything!

This part of H is irrational. It will not make rational sense. Yes, in the end you both watched the movie. H couldn’t watch it as a couple - even though he did. Take his words and actions with a grain of salt (another phrase you may or may not be familiar with, means don’t read too much in to it). His not doing it, and then doing it, is just a way of getting his emotions organized and sorted out.

You watch the movie. With or without H. And let H join you. See no pressure - from his viewpoint. Trust me, he brought up the movie, and he wants to watch it with you. He is just finding himself, his courage, and seeing all the regrets and pain he needs to work through. It’s hard to imagine just what these crisis folks are going through. Timid scared squirrel. And getting better, IMHO.

Have a great day Eagle.

D

[Eagle3]

DnJ,

I understand, even more, I see through it now. The answer you wrote above, I could only read it after my afternoon with H because I was already out for a walk with him.
When I read it in the evening, everything fell into place.
This was what I applied all afternoon and indeed it works very effectively.
But I'm even going to say more. I've read this several times in the past, especially on another website, and then I didn't understand how to apply it. I've also thought several times in the past that he was on his way back but then I wasn't ready, I hadn't let go of him completely and he felt that this as well so that's why my tactics never worked.

Yesterday afternoon the 2 of us were gone for 4 hours, and it would have taken even longer if it weren't for the fact that we had to go back to the children.

We talked about everything. He was very talkative and I could ask whatever I wanted. He did the same to me and I answered everything honestly.

Yes, he still freaks out, still says a lot of inconsistent things, but bottomline, he talks.

Topics we talked about:

- 2 OW's
- His time separated from us whilst abroad
- My time separated from him while he was abroad
- Divorce (about child support and the pressure he feels that he always needs to provide money for the family, he knows he has to but this gives him so much pressure)
- Me checking out new houses
- His trauma's and his identity crisis (he acknowledges his running behavior, he only doesn't see yet that the R's with the OW's were also running behavior)

He was also very interested in my love life. I told him honestly that there is one man that is particularly interested in me, that I like him as well but that as long as I'm not divorced I will not go further, and even then that I will decide this for myself in the future.
Then he said: OK, then I don't have to feel guilt anymore if I want to start a new R. I told him no, when you are divorced you are a free man.

His biggest concern for me: that I hadn't let go of him yet. Well, after yesterday I have been able to decide for myself that I am certainly ready.
I finally let him go. And the bizarre thing is that he also noticed this very strongly. That is why he communicated so openly with me.

I have decided to proceed with the divorce and the further search for housing. If he comes closer, OK for me, if he doesn't, then I can continue on my own perfectly.

He had such a pleasant time yesterday he said he asked if we could go again next week on Sunday.
I said, sure, we can.

As you say DnJ:
Just listen, validate, and H keeps filling in more and more details. Dig for patience my dear.

This is what I'm doing and it feels the right thing to do.

[DnJ]

Hello Eagle

His biggest concern for me: that I hadn't let go of him yet. Well, after yesterday I have been able to decide for myself that I am certainly ready.

I finally let him go.

I have decided to proceed with the divorce and the further search for housing. If he comes closer, OK for me, if he doesn't, then I can continue on my own perfectly.

Well done!

I am proud of you my friend. You are walking a most wonderful and enlightened path. Compassionate and forgiving. I can see how at peace you are.

I am very happy you are receiving so many answers, from H and yourself. Unless I miss the mark, you are about to discover a whole lot more answers from the latter (yourself).

Our deep answers come when we are most at peace.

(I get giddy at some of the things that come to me. Things that are all around us, yet we weren’t ready to see. Ah, that subjective reality.)

As you say DnJ:
Just listen, validate, and H keeps filling in more and more details. Dig for patience my dear.

This is what I'm doing and it feels the right thing to do.

When we get all our cars - physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual - all lined up and moving along together; life is pretty fine. Great actually.

I understand, even more, I see through it now.

Precisely. We all require a certain level of understanding to let go and move forward. It’s kind of amazing when the pieces click into place.

Keep doing what your doing. You so got this Eagle.

D

[Eagle3]

I am proud of you my friend. You are walking a most wonderful and enlightened path. Compassionate and forgiving. I can see how at peace you are.
I am very happy you are receiving so many answers, from H and yourself. Unless I miss the mark, you are about to discover a whole lot more answers from the latter (yourself).

Our deep answers come when we are most at peace.D

I can't agree more with this statement. I'm mostly surprised about my own path and the answers I found the past days. I think the fact he is around now shows me aspects I could not see when he wasn't there. Then I had assumptions, now I actually embrace them.

Remember, believe nothing they say and only half of what they do.
H is admitting things to you, which is actually admitting it to himself.
This is an awakening. Hopefully, it will endure and H can continue its path.
Now, his hurt and anger turns inward. And anger turned inward becomes depression. As deep and dark a depression as you had, times it by two or four or maybe more. A MLCers depression matches the depth of their crisis.
As H works through his depression; and he will if he has the strength and not too much external pressure; he will withdrawal. He will withdrawal from everyone and everything. From the world. He is now in a fight with himself. This is probably the most critical time in recovery. A MLCer has to walk this dark lonely path.
When they emerge, they will be different. A grown up person, still timid, ashamed, guilty, and such; yet matured. They will roll up their sleeves and go about repairing their lives and those around them.D

Just out of curiousity, where would you place him currently?
There is nothing of the extreme going on anymore at the moment. That's why it seems out of the normal. I would think he had an awakening but is still in replay, but this doesn't seem to match his actions.

He is even an nice H at the moment. I've never seen him so calm.
Calm to the children and to me, also very helpful.
It's like our roles have been reversed.
I used to be the pleaser, the follower, also the woman who ran the household, he almost didn't have to do anything. He was the man who lived for work, the biggest money provider.
He is back home since last week and now I come home from work, groceries have been done, he is preparing dinner, cleaning up, making tea in the evening, folding the laundry, etc.

I've never seen him do this in all our lives.

Understanding the mind of an MLC'er, what a challenge...

[DnJ]

Hello Eagle

He is even an nice H at the moment. I've never seen him so calm.
Calm to the children and to me, also very helpful.
It's like our roles have been reversed.

They sort of have been. Well not so much reversed as seen.

I used to be the pleaser, the follower, also the woman who ran the household, he almost didn't have to do anything. He was the man who lived for work, the biggest money provider.
He is back home since last week and now I come home from work, groceries have been done, he is preparing dinner, cleaning up, making tea in the evening, folding the laundry, etc.

I've never seen him do this in all our lives.

Sounds like he was the stereotypical provider man. Work, bring home money. Then somewhere along the way, his usefulness got questioned (internally), he started questioning if that is all there is to life.

Just out of curiousity, where would you place him currently?
There is nothing of the extreme going on anymore at the moment. That's why it seems out of the normal. I would think he had an awakening but is still in replay, but this doesn't seem to match his actions.

Kind of funny when our crisis spouse is being calm we think it’s not normal. We are so use to their previous behaviours we do not know what to do. More accurately, we do not how to believe or trust their behaviours and intentions. Dig deep, and give time. Need to let H demonstrate consistent behaviour to slowly alter your perception and belief of his intent.

Where would I place him?

H appears to be finishing replay and well started into awakening. However, a lot of his current actions are congruent with the early stages of acceptance. As in worked through depression and withdrawal.

Just like the LBS, everyone’s really, the stages of grief and such, the delimitation between steps / stages is not sharply defined. Nor are the stages linear or happen only one at a time. We all are in multiple stages as we have emotionally accepted certain aspects and are still processing others.

In this, H is displaying some early acceptance. I remember you were worried about him and even suicide talk was heard from him. Pretty big hallmark of depression and withdrawal.

So, IMHO, H as exited some of his depression and even progressed through some withdrawal. He is like a teen/adult who knows he has been bad. He so wants to be forgiven. He is looking for how to do that. For he is looking to forgive/accept himself.

You are the role model he is watching. He is modelling after you. It’s not your roles are reversed; it’s that he sees your role. And is emulating it. He is growing up, finding emotional understanding, finding acceptance.

H is looking for appreciation and love. Even if he doesn’t yet realize that. He is letting go being rebellious and embracing being adult. Remember why MLC. H’s recovery means he sees meaning in life, accepts aging, sees his life’s work.; and when one can do that a peace and calm comes forth.

He is working to become.

Will he continue doing the groceries, making diner, cleaning up, and such. Most likely, especially if encouraged and appreciated. And he will then make those timid efforts a permanent change to who he is.

I place him currently at the cusp of becoming a better him - H new and improved. And he absolutely wants to. He is displaying that he can. As long as there is not too much pressure he should progress quite well along his path.

H has confided plenty with you. You have not berated him, nor blew up and crucified him. Remember how weakly he used to offer little tidbits of information? You listened, and he opened up more. He trusts you! Think about that. H is not displaying behaviour of one embroiled within replay.

As I said, we are all multi-staged. H is no exception. He has some parts of his journey that are less further along (like all of us ). He will display depression/withdrawal traits when dealing with those. Overall, he seems to be a bit beyond all that.

My reasoning is his discussions with you. No OW. His behaviour around you and the house.

Still, “us” is pressure. Relationship is pressure. Divorce talks is pressure. Well, not really. I think H’s pressure is considering not divorcing. Not divorcing means “us”. Therefore he looks the other way to divorce. That’s why he says what he says.

He actions do not match his current behaviours. A guy looking to divorce doesn’t clean up and get the groceries. Listen to his actions, not his words.

H’s confusion is heightened regarding things that are too much pressure. And divorce or not divorce (relationship) is a big one.

Anyhow, that where I’d currently place him.

In time, I think he is going to be even more comfortable in his new skin and will roll up his sleeves and get more involved and work on repairing what he destroyed.

D