*************************************************************************************** RECAP: H38 Me 37 T 8 M 4 D17 H's from previous relationship D18 from my previous relationship EA started in mid Oct 2019 became a PA in late Dec 2019 Late Nov 2019 ILYBNILWY IHS H planned to leave MR for life with OW In Apr 2020 OW dumped H Mid Feb 2020 Covid lock-down Mar 13, 2020 - H couldn't leave no matter how much he wanted to April-Jun 2020 H slowly let go of leaving the MR ASAP and started trying with me without ever saying as much July 2020 H returned to MBR, and finally said ILY Piecing since
On a slightly more serious note I did want to address this from the last thread.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
However, I think there is a difference between men and women in this regard. We (men) WILL beg, plead, connive, lie, etc. to get a women to sleep with us. Thus the whole "I love you" lie that plenty of guys have floated out there in order to "get some". I am not excusing that. It is sad, pathetic, unethical AND immoral. And I regret to say to say, I've been guilty of those things. (Not the "I love you" lie, I would never do that.)
I don't think it's a matter of women being less conniving as a state of being. I think it's more so if I ask at most points in my life that's all it took to get what I wanted in that regard. I think that's true for most women in heteronormative situations. The bulk of the times I've been rejected has been in the context of a long term relationship. So the infrequency of the rejection alone changes how we'd react. Also the fact that you know we're raised being told we have to gatekeep physical intimacy, because of that most of us understand to not question a no.
For some men in the dating/casual arena it's a numbers game. Eventually you'll hit. Like a slot machine, so keep trying until you win. I think that same kind of thought process follows into long term relationships. And in that space it doesn't work. because there it isn't a numbers game. It's all the reasons you listed prior. Needs needing to be met, romance, connection, etc., not chance.
And LH, Steve acknowledge it but I want to acknowledge it too. I know not all men will lie, manipulate or coerce to get what they want. While it is all too common IMO I've never had that experience with any other romantic partner. Or even casual dalliance.
On a slightly more serious note I did want to address this from the last thread.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
However, I think there is a difference between men and women in this regard. We (men) WILL beg, plead, connive, lie, etc. to get a women to sleep with us. Thus the whole "I love you" lie that plenty of guys have floated out there in order to "get some". I am not excusing that. It is sad, pathetic, unethical AND immoral. And I regret to say to say, I've been guilty of those things. (Not the "I love you" lie, I would never do that.)
I don't think it's a matter of women being less conniving as a state of being. I think it's more so if I ask at most points in my life that's all it took to get what I wanted in that regard. I think that's true for most women in heteronormative situations. The bulk of the times I've been rejected has been in the context of a long term relationship. So the infrequency of the rejection alone changes how we'd react. Also the fact that you know we're raised being told we have to gatekeep physical intimacy, because of that most of us understand to not question a no.
For some men in the dating/casual arena it's a numbers game. Eventually you'll hit. Like a slot machine, so keep trying until you win. I think that same kind of thought process follows into long term relationships. And in that space it doesn't work. because there it isn't a numbers game. It's all the reasons you listed prior. Needs needing to be met, romance, connection, etc., not chance.
And LH, Steve acknowledge it but I want to acknowledge it too. I know not all men will lie, manipulate or coerce to get what they want. While it is all too common IMO I've never had that experience with any other romantic partner. Or even casual dalliance.
It sure is a numbers game. Roughly two years of dating approximately 35-40 two short term relationships. One I ended, one ended on me. Patience, patience, patience.
WF, do you think women being turned down for sex feels particularly rejecting because society has us believe that men "are always up for it"?
Well I do think societal expectations plays a role. But I don't know if I would pointedly say society believes men are always up for it. I think it's more a multitude of social mores and this men are from Mars, women are from Venus thought process that can be traced to western culture gender norms and puritanical thinking. I also think because the reasons men with low drives are rejecting their partners that aren't being driven by low T or other medical issues are so all over the board it's difficult to cope. There's not a lot out there for women with high drives as it is. And what it out there they almost always point to ED or cheating.
I think the one thing that would ring true to your question would be where sex lies on the priority list of things for a low drive person vs a high drive person. Because guys are assumed to have the high drive it's assume it's always high on their priority list. A guy with a low drive prioritizes the exact same way a women with a low drive does. Sleep, eat, exercise, kids, work, friends all before sex. Because it's assumed it would be higher on that list even beginning the conversation is harder.
That being said, I think the rejection feels particularly bad for women because it's truly confusing. The 3 guys I've been in long(ish) term relationships with that have rejected me regularly rejected me for completely different reasons. exH was a matter of him using sex as a weapon against me because I had a high drive. It was a punishment and reward system. An exBF it was a matter of taste. He needed it to be in the most perfect of physical and emotional conditions or it wasn't worth it to him. He enjoyed making out and some PDA . Loved the build up and like literally love making, but anything outside of that rom-com box wasn't his jam. Inside his box wasn't mine. My current H is kind of all over the place I think one the main issues there is that in the context of a relationship sex is low priority. He feels like well you're there so sex is always an option. Outside of a long term relationship it's a high priority. I don't even like discussing the number of 1 night stands he's had. Honestly the more emotionally connected he feels the less we have sex. I legitimately can't wrap my head around how sex as a priority fluctuates so wildly for him. But in any of those cases there wasn't much I could to do to improve things. I can't adjust my behavior to improve our sex lives when the issues are things that are for them to work through.
Another factor is I know for my female friends with a low drive when they're rejected it feels like retaliation or they feel like their partners aren't attracted to them any more. I can say even with a high drive I feel like the latter often. Especially because I'm the type of person where my weight fluctuates a lot, (depression meds, PCOS, genetics, all fun stuff). So because I already don't feel particularly at home in my body most of the time I definitely take the rejection very, very personally. I know some male partners do too, but given how just any female body in the world is constantly up for scrutiny, my personally being rejected by my H hits so much harder. I already know I'm not an ideal beauty standard for a lot of people and now I'm not attractive enough for my own H. It's difficult to feel like that over and over and over again. I think I would feel less hurt by all of it if I knew it was something I was doing that I need to fix. The only adjustment I can make is to not pressure so I don't create resentment, and to have conversations wit myself that the rejection isn't personal so I don't hold resentment.
WF, interesting insights. This probably won't surprise you but I am not a typical guy. I have turned down many women because I never saw sex as just sex. I saw it as a sign of connection and being in love. In my teens and 20s I was turned off when a woman was obviously wanting to have sex having just met me at a bar or at a party. I am on record with my addiction to alcohol, but even when I was plastered I had a strong sense of not wanting to have sex with some random girl I just met. I feel bad that rejecting these women may have made them feel bad about themselves, but I certainly wasn't going to lower my standards just to make someone feel better.
So for me, getting rejected after we got married was so very confusing. Being in a committed, loving long-term relationship was what I wanted, and the person I was with is who I wanted to have sex with. So when she started turning me down way more than ever saying yes, it really started me questioning my beliefs. I found her "I love yous" incongruent with the "I don't want to have sex". It made me feel like she had used sex while we were dating to secure the relationship, but once she felt it was secured she no longer had the desire. She would chalk it up to being broken. She took all of the blame. "Something is wrong with me." Old abuses from prior to knowing me suddenly were an "issue". She had an older father figure proposition her. She had an uncle that french-kissed her. She had a step cousin that used her as a booty call. Suddenly all of these things were affecting MY sex life.
All of that made me question how much she loved me, and whether I had made a mistake in marrying her. And then the NGS, bad Steve behavior came out and really cemented the SSM. When I think about this I always think about the bald, Texan TV psychologist asking me "How'd that work for you?" LOL
Then her first EA happened. And suddenly it became all about me. Apparently she was sexual, and did desire sex, just not with me. And when I confronted her, things changed for the better for a while but neither of really did the work of Ring and piecing, and about 4 years later we were right back to the same dynamics. And the slow burn towards her second EA, and saying she wanted a D started until finally flaming into a full blown fire 3 1/2 years ago.
But the problem is that rejection is still rejection. And being rejected by the person that you are committed to for life still stings. Especially if not done in the right way. When there is a legitimate reason for the rejection, ok. But when it is just a cold, avoiding, excuse a minute rejection, it is difficult to get over, And then when they step outside of the relationship sexually, either physically or emotionally, it makes it awfully difficult not to personalize it.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
You and wife's story is interesting to me. I had some not great sexual experiences young. And obviously with my exH things weren't great. But with what happened to me I wanted to own my sexuality. I didn't want to be "broken" by someone. I did everything in my power to exert my autonomy over my body, to find out what my preferences were, and to learn to be unafraid of saying what I wanted and how I wanted it. I know there were guys hurt in that process. I'm not proud of that part.
I also felt a lot of the same things you felt in the EA when we went through the A. I took that very personally. I bent over backward to the detriment of myself to try to make him happy. And yet here he was more than happy to lavish attention and physical affection on a person who made time for him only when she didn't like her bf very much. Initially the sting was the rejection, but after time the sting was more just anger at myself for putting myself in the position to be hurt like that. That I handed him that kind of power over me that I let myself think I was the problem.
I think our issues on this side are a little different. He's more conscientious about how long we've gone between. He's more aware that leaving sex on the bottom of the list actually hurts me because I just don't feel the same way. Now it's more me trying to understand what sex actually means to him. When he decided to focus his attention on me again on the other side of the A things kind of came to light that we still haven't talked about and I know we should. He used physical connection to me to fulfill an emotional connection I wouldn't give him at first, and he didn't want to give me. He literally couldn't keep his hands off me when he didn't know what he wanted future-wise. The sex at that time was like two randos at a bar, pure chemistry, all lust, no love. It was honestly a lot like the beginning of our story.
H was a FWB before I seriously started dating him. We went out on a date here or there, but most of the time it was one or the other of us checking in at midnight to see if we were the sure thing at bar close. Or at like 9 or on a week night I'd slip out to his apartment after my daughter would go to bed and be back before midnight. (My roommate was there with her. I didn't neglect my child for sex. Just to be very clear). In the beginning he caught feelings before I did. And I could tell before he said anything. The sex changed. The exact same process happened after the affair. It went from raw chemistry to everything slowing down, tons of eye contact, cuddling and lingering in bed after. And like in our beginning the more we connected emotionally the more the sex changed. Then the frequency. The more he feels connected to me emotionally the less we connect physically. My fear here is that there's some kind of subconscious madonna/wh*re complex. Like as his wife and his love interest he can't see me the same way as he does when I mean less than that to him. Maybe that's not it at all and I'm reading into it, but it feels like something I can't just leave alone. I don't know that he even realizes he doing that.
I legitimately can't wrap my head around how sex as a priority fluctuates so wildly for him. But in any of those cases there wasn't much I could to do to improve things. I can't adjust my behaviour to improve our sex lives when the issues are things that are for them to work through.
That must be really frustrating to have your sex life so out of your control, especially when traditionally we are told that women are usually the gatekeepers of sex.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Another factor is I know for my female friends with a low drive when they're rejected it feels like retaliation or they feel like their partners aren't attracted to them any more.
That's why trust and communication are so important in a relationship. My old self has actually had sex with women because I was too afraid to hurt their feelings or reject them, rather than be honest and communicate my feelings. Classic NGS stuff I know.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Especially because I'm the type of person where my weight fluctuates a lot, (depression meds, PCOS, genetics, all fun stuff). So because I already don't feel particularly at home in my body most of the time I definitely take the rejection very, very personally. I know some male partners do too, but given how just any female body in the world is constantly up for scrutiny, my personally being rejected by my H hits so much harder.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
The only adjustment I can make is to not pressure so I don't create resentment, and to have conversations wit myself that the rejection isn't personal so I don't hold resentment.
So, I don't know if you're familiar with my sitch, but basically m STBXW would not have sex with me for pretty much the entirety of our 11 year M, not even on our wedding night. She had a medical issue, Vaginismus, which made it painful for her to have sex. The expectation of pain further manifested as fear, which is the ultimate un-aphrodisiac. I thought that the most husbandly and caring thing that I could do was not pressure because I didn't want to resent her. We had sex maybe 5 times the whole of our marriage (we would do other things but that died off, to the point where she wouldn't even kiss me properly). The not pressuring turned into complete avoidance of the problem, I've said before that I completely buried my head in the sand. In hindsight, our M never stood a chance, but I kept telling myself that I was being a great H because I was staying loyal and not pressuring her. But the truth of the matter was that I was totally resenting her, I felt so rejected. All I wanted was a married sex life. I told her once how rejected I felt every day and she completely invalidated me (that event is probably the biggest reminder of how important validation is). Since the M has ended she has since said it wasn't the physical issue but that she didn't feel loved or respected and that's why, which I totally believe but wish she had communicated rather than hide behind her medical diagnosis (she got treatment which I assisted with).
The greatest rejection came when I found out she slept with some guy she'd met on Tinder within a few weeks that she didn't feel any connection with. Then she slept with her current BF, I found messages of how much loved sex and how great he was at it (amongst other things). All very hurtful things, but would they have happened if I'd addressed my problems and changed what I could change when I could rather than hope for things to improve?
Me: 41 W:42 T: 14 M: 11 S: 6
"What happened happened, and couldn't have happened any other way...because it didn't"
