Still learning, but leaning into the future...

[97Hope]

((((Sage))))

It's so good to hear from you here. I am so sorry for the ache in your heart. It will get better, you know that in your head, your heart will catch up to it.

I can't really add to what D and bttrfly said, except to say that you are strong. You have courage to embrace what's best for your kids (spending time with their father). You won't allow them to suffer for your own happiness.

I asked a dear friend of mine, what I was supposed to do now that I have this life I didn't ask for and didn't really want, and he said "EMBRACE IT".

I did NOT want to! I, too, felt robbed. Because I was. They took from us. So we acknowledge the losses and over time, embrace our new lives.

The alternative is to stay stuck and you are too brave and wonderful to do that.

Take whatever time you need to grieve the loss. Go through the process. Like on Finding Nemo, I picture the rocks as grief. Through it not over it.

Those beautiful people you created will remember the puppy pile memories and your strength. You are the rock. Stay strong.

[Gerda]

Gerda, want to co-author something with me?

Yes. Seriously. We should.

But you have never left me a crumb. I have been thinking about doing it on youtube actually. I already have started a channel on some other things I do -- not that I have more than like three followers but I think if I worked on it for real I could make it something great. And I think I could help a lot of women, you too. If you are serious, let's explore.

I am having a similar time of grief about the horrors of this world. And there have been huge developments in my nightmare, all of them worse than the ones before, but I haven't had time/energy to write them here. I have been on a sort of silent retreat, just grieving and praying. Plus all the developments which I will talk about at some point on my thread.

All we can do is walk in light.

Which you did. This log leaping in the glorious dusk is the summer version of ice skating -- looking ahead to where you want to go, my lovelies! You sound like a magical mother truly. You are doing it, you are creating the light for your kids, you are the anchor, they will always look back at how you walked through this horror with grace and love. Think about a mother in Afghanistan right now, or Syria or anywhere going through some version of H$ll. Would we ever doubt her beauty and love as a mother just because the world she is living in is horrific? Love is our only purpose, I think we can't look for a different reality to enact that. You aren't, but you are feeling paralyzed, and robbed. You were robbed, but you also weren't. You may have been chosen for these kids because you are the mom who would link arms in the twilight and leap off a log into the freezing water and tuck them in cozy afterwards. There are moms who would be bitter and rageful and passed out on the couch from various prescribed psychotropics. That's what I grew up with.

It's good that you figured all this out about what you want/need/project.

But I think it's better to cut and run. Get what you can quickly. Once you are free you'll be able to do so much more than you can now. I doubt your H will be eager to help you achieve your dreams. That's why he left, cause he's not. He doesn't care about your dreams. Nor mine. Mine wants me dead, I think. Gives me not a penny. And yet I have made tiny inroads into achieving dreams that I put aside for so long. Get a deal quickly, and then you'll have the freedom to get to work on those dreams.

Crumb me!

[Sage4]

Gerda, you and DnJ and Hope and May (whom I know offline) have been such solice to me this past week. Thank you for the support and encouragement and love.

I have a lot to update, but not the mental energy to do so. But the one thought that I woke up to the other morning was a sense of loneliness. Specifically from physical intimacy (not necessarily sex, though that would be nice). I realized that the past 19 months have been the longest I have ever gone since the age of 13 where I didn't hold a boy (or man's) hand, or kiss someone or cuddle or engage in pillow-talk. Maybe it is a reclaiming of my post-breakup womanhood (though I was hardly a woman when I held my first crushes' hand on the back of that 4-wheeler in Alaska at 13). I have had a lot of dry periods in my life, where the need for self-actualization was more urgent than the need for intimacy, but even during those eras, I still flirted or felt I had opportunities and was making a conscious choice to abstain.

I am not interested in online dating. I have been on a blind date or two set up by loving friends, which I can internally justify as 'making new friends' or 'potential business investor' so not really the same thing, and didn't lead to much, likely from my end.

I am not sure if I am looking for answers or solidarity or just sharing my current state of mind. I would love to kiss someone, or hold someone's hand or cuddle. I have been advised that my D will likely take a long time to be final, so I am not sure that is a benchmark that makes sense for me to wait for at this point. I thought I would be so pure and so true and not do a thing until years after the D, but I am feeling so alive at the moment. All the self-work I have been doing the past 2 years, all the child-first parenting I have been doing, has paid dividends and now that most accounts are (nearly) full, I am yearning for more.

I am so curious how all you wise-ones have navigated these feelings.

In curiosity,
Sage

[paco123]

Not a wise one here, but your comments resonated, so let me essay a response.

I think there is loneliness and then there is LONELINESS. The former is as you describe: the need for a touch of the hand; the brush of the cheek; the head on another’s shoulder. The latter is the human condition: to want to be known and loved--fully and unconditionally--by another soul, only to realize that sort of love can only truly be filled by someone (or something) transcendent.

Only a few weeks ago, I left a relationship that filled the former need, because I realized I was seeking to quench the latter. I told the woman that she was special and amazing, and that she deserved someone who could give of himself totally. And, given how I continue to feel about my XW, that someone was not me.

Difficult though that was, it confirmed my desire to continue standing and, for now, to avoid romantic relationships. Whatever journey my XW is on, I do feel that I need to be there if and when she should ever leave the tunnel. I know quite intimately her history and her family of origin’s dynamics. I believe she is trying to deal with LONELINESS through other means--like all of us. It is, as I say, the human, existential condition.

And if she never leaves the tunnel, I trust my future self to deal with that if that time comes.

[DnJ]

Good Morning Sage

I do understand your feelings. It’s been a long time since I held anyone’s hand. XW and I walked everywhere hand in hand. Four years with no hugs, cuddles, hand holding, kisses, pillow talk, sex, waking up to someone beside you, etc.

They are feelings. They will flit - unless reinforced.

I thought I would be so pure and so true and not do a thing until years after the D, but I am feeling so alive at the moment.

Glad you are feeling alive. It does take time to heal, to find ourselves again.

We all face crossroads during our journey. Decisions and choices along our path.

Standing is the default position while we heal. Standing really starts when one is healed enough to stand down. However, that needs to become standing for you. Not M. Not H. You!

Standing or living your convictions or believing in your vows - all is standing for you.

By the way, you can be completely alive AND be single.

It’s alone, not lonely. There is a difference.

I have been advised that my D will likely take a long time to be final, so I am not sure that is a benchmark that makes sense for me to wait for at this point.

Such are the crossroads we face.

You never believed in dating outside your marriage before. Why start now?

Decisions based upon feelings often lead to regret. Follow your beliefs and convictions, for they are slow to change and make excellent headings for life.

You face your crisis of faith, a crisis of your soul/beliefs/values. This is the testing of your beliefs. How strong are they? Do they crumble?

I faced similar. You know the path I walked. My accounts are full up. I live in the light. And my yearnings and zest for life is alive and well.

I am happy to walk beside you my friend. You are not alone.

I can discuss further later, for now I am off to work.

D

[AndrewP]

Hi Sage - I don't know if I've ever posted to you or not.

Your feelings of loneliness are familiar though. I'm a bit over 5 years out, completely divorced and living alone with my cat in what was the marital home. I have zero contact with my XW and haven't had any meaningful contact with her since I think Dec 2016.

I did date a couple of women and it got serious quite fast but didn't last for a variety of reasons that don't matter on this thread. Like DnJ, we were that "cute couple" who still held hands everywhere they went even as our hair turned to grey.

Initially the absence of my XW (which I'm saying differently from loneliness) was a painful experience. The everyday things that were shared no longer were. Like someone wrote to me a long time ago, it's as if a part of yourself is torn out leaving a gaping hole. In time, that hole that that person occupied did fill in for me as I grew into just being "AndrewP" and not part of a couple.

There are still bad days when I want to reach out to the empty spot on the other side of the bed, turn to that empty passenger seat in the car, listen to someone talk about how their day went, make them a cup of coffee. I don't have that.

After the last bad experience, I did learn that it was better to be alone than with someone who was not good for me and at this point am not looking. I honestly don't know if I will again. I have good friends who I don't see often enough, a career that keeps me occupied mentally (far too much most days it seems), and my cat who would prefer if I didn't work so much. But it's not the same I know as that "someone" who you and I no longer have.

I'm not familiar with your story but from DnJ's comment it would appear that you are "standing" and holding space for your former partner. My own opinion is that dating someone else isn't fair to either yourself or that person if your preference is for someone else, whether that's a realistic hope or not.

It is only after that door is firmly closed and the light in the window that was left on for them turned off that I would suggest looking for another "someone". There are a lot of damaged people out there though and finding the "right" someone FOR YOU requires patience and resilience.

In the meantime, the loneliness is there. Many of us understand what you are feeling. Accept that it exists but also know that it is your choice alone on how you deal with that. For me, what I do is like when I felt the anger is to accept the emotion, absorb it and then let it go. Distractions can help but I like to face things head-on and deal with them.

((Sage))

[kml]

I personally have a different opinion, Sage.

The reasons not to date are clear - if you would take your ex back if they showed up crawling on their knees and begging your forgiveness, you should not date - as that would be very unfair to anyone you might date.

On the other hand - if you are sure you are DONE, and would not have your ex back under any circumstances, and have worked through your own issues around the breakup of your marriage - then I don't think it's necessary to wait on that piece of paper.

Most people here are still too new to the trauma when their divorce occurs. But for myself, my ex had an affair 8-10 years before our divorce. I DB'd like mad, we reconciled, we had several excellent years, but as he approached 50 his MLC began. He'd had a couple of concussions (on top of several previouso nes) when he first asked me for a divorce, so I thought it was the concussion speaking. I still fought for my marriage, but when he finally filed papers 6 months later, I was DONE. I knew I had done everything possible to save my marriage, and I also knew that I could never trust him again so I would never reconcile again (third strike thing). Once I let go I did start dating, a long distance thing (which worked for me at the time because I was still going through the divorce process and one weekend every couple of months worked into my schedule just fine. And I've never regretted that relationship - although he wasn't marriage material, and after a year his old high school girlfriend showed up and whisked him away (I could hardly blame him for that, those ties were deep and took him back to a happier time in his life).

He and I have stayed true friends ever since and honestly, my relationship with him was healing in so many ways. He showed me some of what I had been missing in my ex. He was a good and generous father to his kids in ways my ex will never be, he was accepting and intellectually curious. (And the sex was great!)

BTW - he and I met through online dating. It's not quite the same as blind dating as you can get some sense of the person before you meet (although some people are better at this than others - I've had good luck, my friend cannot at all predict who she might like from their profile.) That being said, if you work in an occupation with dateable men, or are involved in group activities where you might meet someone organically, good on you. But for me, as a woman in her early 50's- early 60's when dating, I only met ONE man organically (he picked me up in Big Lots lol) - and although he was terribly handsome and sexy, he was probably the least good match on other counts. It's simply not that easy to casually meet people once you're out of your twenties. Yes, you have to weed through a lot of people online to find one appropriate match, but it's a lot easier and quicker to do that weeding. I can't meet 100 people at parties easily but I can weed through 100 candidates online. I also can learn more about them initially than I might learn casually chatting with someone at a party. So don't completely discount online dating - it IS where most people are meeting their dates these days.

[Traveler]

The reasons not to date are clear - if you would take your ex back if they showed up crawling on their knees and begging your forgiveness, you should not date - as that would be very unfair to anyone you might date.

On the other hand - if you are sure you are DONE, and would not have your ex back under any circumstances, and have worked through your own issues around the breakup of your marriage - then I don't think it's necessary to wait on that piece of paper.

I like kml's breakdown. Once I slept with someone within 2-3 months after BD and lo and behold we R'd and that definitely added challenges. It also was unfair to the person I slept with that I was thinking about my ex just before and just after. This time I waited 6 months before even my first date, and when we slept together, my ex wasn't anywhere near my thoughts. Some (many) would say I'm not in an ideal place to date, but at least I'm no longer eager for R, my XGF was rarely on my thoughts, and I had found a rewarding life solo. I am glad you feel you reclaimed your womanhood and self-actualization!

[DnJ]

Hello Sage

Gosh, what a work day.

I am so curious how all you wise-ones have navigated these feelings.

Realize these are feelings. They are not permanent. Not forever. And will most definitely change.

Once you realize that, it become rather obvious to not make any life altering decisions based upon them. You then work through the feelings. Perhaps it will help to know there is something beyond the desire and current yearnings.

Still, feelings are real and valid. They harken to what is within our subconscious self. And that take some time to discover and sort out.

How did I navigate these feelings?

It started with realizing I am alone not lonely.

I then proceeded on to the inner work. I had a W sized hole left in my soul after BD. As I grew and healed and the pieces got put back together, the hole disappeared. It is not ignored, or filled in, or covered over. It is, for lack of anything better - accepted. Forgiveness has many benefits, and promoting healing is one of them.

An other conscious strategy was not to date. To not give in to my feelings. To follow my beliefs and values. You’d be surprised at how many people do not agree with my views regarding vows. Or maybe you’d not be surprised. At any rate, if I could easily dismiss my vow, what does my word mean?

For me, breaking a vow is a big thing. If one can just break that, what chance does their lesser promises have. For better or worse. Till death do us part. We all said something along those lines. Mine didn’t have any exit clause or loop hole. I meant it.

One of my most rigorous views and realizations is that we humans have an incredible, almost infinite capacity for justification. We can justify any position or belief we want to. Consider: I was too young when we were married. I didn’t leave or cause this divorce. I never meant for any of this to happen. I’m too young to be single. We are separated. I am going to divorce. Divorce is just a piece of paper. And so on. It pretty easy to find one’s way to believe things.

My views are more factual based. I never thought it correct for one to date someone else while married. I’ve upheld that viewpoint (and many others) in my personal life. And have had many critics. Seems I’m rather old fashion when it comes to morals and loyalty and my solemn word. Lol.

Anyhow, I’m ok with the criticism. When everyone is running off a cliff, the one guy running the other way appears wrong.

I’m not telling you what you should do. I’m just probing your beliefs so you make well informed decisions and choices. We all live with the benefits and consequences of our choices.

And that is another way I navigated my feelings. Realizing my choices.

Dating does get talked about quite a bit. I’ve read plenty of folk’s threads and journeys regarding their exploits. If I may offer something.

Do not date to fill some void. That does not work. Void, loneliness, unhappiness, sadness, bitterness, etc all come from within. External will not alleviate that.

Also fulfillment, contentment, joy, happiness, forgiveness, etc all come from within. External will not create that.

Most of us have a list or realization of traits that we are looking for. And ones we will turn down. Red flags and other issues that highlight being incompatible. Folks are busy looking for someone rather than being someone. Become the person you desire. Be that person and exhibit those traits you hold dear. There is far less looking for someone to fill a void when you have filled it. Yet another navigation tool I found useful traversing these new waters.

This is not a matter of right or wrong. Moral or immoral. As you well know there are many different views out there. It is a matter of what do you want. What do you value. What do you and how do you want to live. What do you stand for. Or want to stand for.

For me I’ve listened to the feedback of my life. What we put out to the universe comes back many fold over. I am single, happy, and content. My kids love and respect me. I do live a pretty great life.

Live in the light and the light will live and shine within you.

D

[Traveler]

DnJ, if I may ask--and as a starting point I'm not dating because I feel lonely or to fill avoid--when you say the following:

Once you realize that, it become rather obvious to not make any life altering decisions based upon them. You then work through the feelings. Perhaps it will help to know there is something beyond the desire and current yearnings.

Still, feelings are real and valid. They harken to what is within our subconscious self. And that take some time to discover and sort out.

How did you get good at processing feelings? I have the first step down of realizing feelings are often fleeting. If I feel frustrated with someone I often wait until the next day. Still, in the morning it takes 30-60min to process what's eating at me, why, and how important it is. I go from "Why didn't you do X or Y?? (accusatory)" to "After A (good) and B (good), I felt C about no X." Of course, the later communication yields more productive responses. Some people seem so adept at processing their emotions. I don't imagine them stopping to reflect for 30min. At least while I'm still processing, I validate instead of emoting.