Lost and Separated

[Ready2Change]

As far as your interactions with her, it is important to drop negative traits of behavior while keeping the positive ones. For example, if you can make her laugh, no sense in dropping the humor, maybe just reel it back.

[JayGrass]

Hi Jay,

I am assuming no kids since you did not mention them. If so, would you mind sharing how many and ages (as well as your age). Helps us understand better.

Update your signature with some info would help us as well:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=editbasic

Hi there. There is a child involved, but its my son from just before the two of us actually got together.. but she is like a mother to him as she has been in his life since he was born - although sadly, legally anyways, there isn't anything that concerns her. I am not preventing her from seeing him or talking to him, I've been promoting it as she has kind of shut down from everything and distanced herself. W is 28, I am 32. We met and became friends when she was 16(through mutual friends) and since she lived on the other side of the country initially, we obviously were strictly friends due to age and distance etc. Stayed best friends for about 4 years, and then we both kind of came clean about our feelings, and decided we would do anything to be together.

[JayGrass]

OK that's a good thing, hopefully a lot of the pressure she was feeling from that will begin to diminish. That along with you removing pressure will hopefully help her sort things out emotionally.

I think so. Although I'm even more confused at the moment as one of our good friends who typically keeps things very confidential spoke with her and brought some information to light.. which I'm not sure what to make of it. He's had long term severe depression, so he's been trying to talk with her to help her through her struggles with that as he can understand what she is feeling.

But according to what they spoke about last night, she does in fact want to be with me, and truly wants our marriage. She just doesn't know how to say that or show that to me because of how angry she is with me, and how her feelings are all over the board. Thats why she needs this time of separation according to the talk, that as much as it hurts her knowing she's putting me through this - she needs to get her head back on straight to be able to do what she needs to do for our marriage. Which I can 100% respect.

I don't understand why she is incapable of saying this to me though. Hearing those words from her - it would make a world of difference, and give me the hope I need to be able to be my strongest through this. Y'know?

He says that has something to do with the depression, and her just feeling like she can't face me or control her anger, so she's unable to find a way to say those words to me. I've never personally experienced this.. so I can't say if I completely understand that. Maybe you or someone else may have more insight into that.

Great! Like I said a lot of people don't have the patience for it, but those that do stand a much better chance of reconciling.

I can wait for a million years, while walking through hell if there is even a tiny sliver of hope. I honestly never knew I could love someone as much as I do her.

Core's book suggestion is a good one. Some people consider the book to be a bit on the crude side but it definitely will help you understand alpha versus beta behavior. Alpha doesn't mean being a pushy jerk, it just means being confident and assertive. A lot of LBS's attracted their spouse in the first place because of their alpha characteristics. Strong, confident, independent. They might be interested in multiple women and she has to compete to win him over. Then they go through the dating process and get married and become responsible fathers and husbands and often lose touch with their alpha side and become very beta. That is not a bad thing, but it's not what women are particularly attracted to. Obviously you don't want to abandon all your responsibilities, so you don't want to be alpha at the expense of your beta duties. You have to find a balance. My girlfriend once told me she just about lost it once when she saw me ironing my work shirt. She said it was one of the sexiest things she had ever seen. I asked her why, and she said because most men think that's a woman's "job", so to see a man confident and independent enough to do it himself was appealing. I would never have thought a woman would ever see ironing as sexy, but the point is if you strike the right balance then everything about you is appealing.

That is interesting, but completely understandable at the same time. They are attracted to the strength and the security that is associated with alpha behaviors - while beta behaviors show care, they don't convey those features of strength.

Very good. Like I said before, she won't believe your changes at first so stick with them and make them permanent. A woman that used to post here a lot had a saying that went something like "180's + time = changes she can believe in". Most people do 180's for a week or two expecting to see a reaction, and when they don't get it they give up and go back to their old ways. TIME is a critical factor.

Very understandable and solid advice. I'll never make a change that I don't want to or can't sustain.

It's OK to talk to her, giving her space doesn't mean completely shutting her out. It just means no R talks. If SHE initiates an R talk then listen and validate (see Cadet's links for info on validating). Don't ever initiate them yourself.

So should I just avoid initiating contact, and just await her contact? Or is it good for me to still maintain some form of initiation as long as its kept as something light, to the point, warm, but not too warm?

See Sandi's 37 rules, it's a sticky at the top of the forum. I printed them out and reviewed them every day early on.

Yeah I've been rereading over them, they are pretty solid. Are all of them gospel in your opinion, or should try to be tailored to the situation?

Yes, do go along with the conversation. Don't try to be flirty though. She's likely to see that as pressure. Plus you want to be a bit mysterious. Don't offer up info on what you've been doing (or not doing). Be brief. Be the first to hang up when she calls. Don't always answer right away when she calls. Don't always respond right away when she texts. Right now she sees you as low value and undesirable. You need to do things to change that. Dress nicer. Keep your hair styled. Wear cologne. Get out and be with people. Get back in touch with old friends. Meet new ones. Start a new hobby. Get fit if you're not already. Get a tan. I'm not saying to start dating or even to act like you're dating, the idea isn't to make her jealous, it's to make her wonder what you're up to. She needs to learn to miss you.

What are you're recommendations.. I've lost a lot of friends throughout the years due to my disability and not being able to do a lot of things I did in the past - they also have moved and things along those lines..(also us moving a few times from Washington state back here to Florida didn't help that) I don't really have any friends now, and I'm not sure exactly how to meet new friends being that I'm not in work - and it seems weird to me to just randomly go somewhere to try to make friends haha.

[SteveLW]

What are you're recommendations.. I've lost a lot of friends throughout the years due to my disability and not being able to do a lot of things I did in the past - they also have moved and things along those lines..(also us moving a few times from Washington state back here to Florida didn't help that) I don't really have any friends now, and I'm not sure exactly how to meet new friends being that I'm not in work - and it seems weird to me to just randomly go somewhere to try to make friends haha.

Jay, this is troublesome to me. Friendship isn't about doing things and having no distance (literal) between you. It is about keeping the connection alive. If I had a dime for every friend of mine that said to me, after seeing me after a longtime "You never call!", I'd be a rich man. My answer is always: "the phone works two ways." And while I was guilty of not calling and keeping the connection with them alive, I also wasn't the one complaining about it!

My point? Disability and distance doesn't keep you from staying connected to friends. The problem is that most people rely on social media as a crutch today, instead of doing the difficult work of keeping personal relationships active. Friends aren't about doing things (though friends can do things together), or about "oh they live so far away we can't remain friends". Friends are people you stay in contact with, keep a connection to, and are there for each other through hard work and effort. If your disability and distance between you means they are no longer a friend, I'd argue that they never really were.

[SteveLW]

P.S. We see LBSs that make excuses about GAL all the time. IT is no coincidence that those are usually the LBSs that struggle the most.

[mtb1981]

I don't want to be a downer here, but you should prepare yourself for the possibility that your wife is having an affair. It happens quite often here when a spouse becomes consumed with work or school. They end up in a fantasy relationship with a co worker or fellow student. I also believe that when a spouse wants to move out, its because they want to cheat. It's hard to cheat living with your husband. Believe nothing she says. You'll get the ily's and "i'm not sure what i want's", but most of the time that's just to keep you quiet. You need to be a good boy and wait at home being Plan B, so she's gonna feed you all sorts of nonsense. Detach. All you can do is focus on you. Don't let your mind fool you. For now, she's gone. Accept it. Believe nothing she says. You're going to be fine either way. You just focus on being awesome. Detach. Live your life for you and be the best you can be...

[mtb1981]

I'd also like to add that due to your ages and when you first got together, I wouldn't be surprised if she tells you that she doesn't know who she really is because she has been in a committed relationship with you from such a young age. That she needs to find herself because she missed out on being young and free, etc...

[Ready2Change]

Hi Jay,

Most of us guys are in fix it mode. If you need more empathy let us know. We have all been in the confused and hurt state.

She just doesn't know how to say that or show that to me because of how angry she is with me, and how her feelings are all over the board.

We had a saying around here "Put your raincoat on" and get ready for an angry downpour from your spouse. I haven't seen much talk about this lately, but is was sound advise. I was ready, but it never came. I strongly suggest that you prepare yourself for her to express her anger to you. This will all be about listening and validating her feelings. You stay calm while she is angry. This is an invaluable skill that will serve you well. Do not take anything she says personally. She is just sharing her story with you. You listen to understand her. You want her to feel safe when expressing her anger (or other emotions). Some see anger ass a scary emotion. Some have not had safe places to express it and it is bottled up ready to explode.

she needs to get her head back on straight to be able to do what she needs to do for our marriage. Which I can 100% respect.

You both do. This is a gift to you. A great chance to start down a path of personal growth. Take a hard look at yourself and decide what you would like to change. Then start making changes. I have been down so many paths now. I have a much better understand what women are truly attracted to as well as how to seduce a women. These are learned skills.

So should I just avoid initiating contact, and just await her contact? Or is it good for me to still maintain some form of initiation as long as its kept as something light, to the point, warm, but not too warm?

She has requested time and space away from you. Even if you don't agree with her, respect her request. Most guys do not understand how important this is.

Treat her like a cat. Even better a squirrel. Never chase a cat. Never make sudden movements around a squirrel. When you interact with her, you want her to "See" you different. She thinks she knows you and that you will never change. Your goal is to prove her wrong. You do this for you, not for her. Drop unattractive traits and pick up new attractive traits. You behave different. You become different.

I don't really have any friends now, and I'm not sure exactly how to meet new friends being that I'm not in work - and it seems weird to me to just randomly go somewhere to try to make friends.

Reconnect with old friends. As far as making new friends, this is a good 180 for you. Change your beliefs and everything changes. Go from "It seems weird" to "It is not weird". Covid makes things a little more challenging, but if you put yourself out there and interact with people, you will make friends. This is all a learned skill.

[harvey]

I honestly never knew I could love someone as much as I do her.

We all feel this way at the time of DB. Trust me, those feelings will change if you see no progress for years. The shock and fear is clouding your view right now. You'll eventually realize that you don't want to be with somebody who doesn't want to be with you. You'll get your mojo back. It's just going to take a lot of time.

[AnotherStander]

I think so. Although I'm even more confused at the moment as one of our good friends who typically keeps things very confidential spoke with her and brought some information to light.. which I'm not sure what to make of it. He's had long term severe depression, so he's been trying to talk with her to help her through her struggles with that as he can understand what she is feeling.

I know it is very tempting to ask mutual friends to intervene, but please don't. Do not talk about your situation to ANY mutual friends or family. Talk to us here, or talk to friends that don't know your wife. The WAS almost always interprets it as "rallying the troops against them" no matter how well-intentioned. You also don't want it getting back to her about how bad you miss her and are pining away for her because they will see that as sad, weak and even pathetic. And that is very unattractive. You've got to be strong, be the lighthouse in the storm.

But according to what they spoke about last night, she does in fact want to be with me, and truly wants our marriage. She just doesn't know how to say that or show that to me because of how angry she is with me, and how her feelings are all over the board. Thats why she needs this time of separation according to the talk, that as much as it hurts her knowing she's putting me through this - she needs to get her head back on straight to be able to do what she needs to do for our marriage. Which I can 100% respect.

I want you to have realistic expectations, so I've got to throw a wet blanket on this. You simply cannot trust anything she says right now. She's going through something, and she'll make a statement one day and then the very next make a contradicting statement. Today she is all-in on the marriage, tomorrow she's all-in on divorce, the next day she's not sure. This is why we say not to have R talks, because you will remain in a constant state of confusion over what she wants, because SHE is confused. She doesn't know what she wants. It will be a moving target for quite some time. So take all of that that she said ^^^ and file it in the ol' trasherino. Forget it. It doesn't mean a thing right now. She's on a journey that you can't help her with. The best thing you can do is get out of her way.

I don't understand why she is incapable of saying this to me though. Hearing those words from her - it would make a world of difference, and give me the hope I need to be able to be my strongest through this. Y'know?

That is exactly why, she doesn't want you to have hope! She is keeping all her options open right now- reconciliation, divorce, separation, affair. All are on the table.

He says that has something to do with the depression, and her just feeling like she can't face me or control her anger, so she's unable to find a way to say those words to me. I've never personally experienced this.. so I can't say if I completely understand that. Maybe you or someone else may have more insight into that.

Unless your friend is a licensed therapist I wouldn't give any weight to what he thinks. And if he is a licensed therapist, then he's a poor one because he apparently doesn't understand that what she tells him is in confidence and not to be shared with others.

So should I just avoid initiating contact, and just await her contact? Or is it good for me to still maintain some form of initiation as long as its kept as something light, to the point, warm, but not too warm?

Just in general don't contact her unless it's something urgent. If she contacts you it's fine to reply. Sometimes reply right away, sometimes wait a while. You don't want to look anxious to hear from her.

Yeah I've been rereading over them, they are pretty solid. Are all of them gospel in your opinion, or should try to be tailored to the situation?

Don't try to modify Sandi's rules, people who do usually find themselves backsliding. It's easy to justify bad behavior to yourself. A lot of people mistakenly think "oh they don't know my wife, this won't work with her for XYZ reasons so I will modify it." Here's the thing- you know your old wife better than we do. We know your WAS better than you do. She's not your old W. You will come to discover it's almost as if aliens snatched her from her body and planted a new person in there.

What are you're recommendations.. I've lost a lot of friends throughout the years due to my disability and not being able to do a lot of things I did in the past - they also have moved and things along those lines..(also us moving a few times from Washington state back here to Florida didn't help that) I don't really have any friends now, and I'm not sure exactly how to meet new friends being that I'm not in work - and it seems weird to me to just randomly go somewhere to try to make friends haha.

Are you in the US? Look into Meetup.com for activities in your area that will help you meet new friends. Also here is a list that 25 posted years ago regarding GAL:

25’s GAL:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...t&Number=2752796&nt=7&page=7

Jim

For GAL suggestions, let me mention some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, even in the winter. And I had 3 kids including a baby.

Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL. And imo, we cannot detach without GAL.

I believe the more you overcome inertia, and feel detachment, an ironic by product will be better R's with all people, including your w.

All of these upped my self esteem.

Okay so I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.

I coached a girl's softball team, two summers (my older D was on it).
I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, (b/c our son wrestled).

*I auditioned for community theater and met some fun creative people. I got cast, too.


*Rehearsing one night, I realized it had been hours without me thinking about H or our m, or doing any obsessing, & that was huge. Even more importantly, I learned to be IN the moment. When you do live theater, You cannot waste time regretting a missed cue earlier, and you have to think on your feet and ad lib and not think about the next act or anticipate things. There is only "now" and you make the best of that moment.

It's a wonderful important experience, and lesson for life I think.

*I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Improv. It went very well and again, you are in the moment and reacting to the audience, so you perform and listen. And the more you learn to laugh at things that would otherwise make you uncomfortable, the smoother a lot of life becomes.

You have probably heard that the line between tragedy and comedy is a fine one, and it's true.

I learned to cross country ski, became a better downhill skier.

I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at shooting. Learned some patience too, and respect nature more.

I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)
I loved riding it. Jetskiing is great if you are near water in a warm place.

Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license. Ground school for flying challenged a different part of my brain, as did learning to fly. Jim - I know you have the height issue/fear, but thing is, flying a plane isn't like peering over the edge of a bridge. Know what I mean?


And I edited a hunting book for a hunting guide/friend up there. The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?

I worked out 3-4 times a week, and got in excellent shape. As you know, Looking good makes a world of difference to us. Found a (female) work out partner and began socializing after the work outs. As you mention, the endorphin affect matters.

I was trying to lose the baby weight and It was not easy to do, let alone in the dark cold Long winters. Totally worth the efforts. In the winter, I used a tanning booth, which helped me feel more energized, and it probably helped my appearance, which also helps me feel better.

I saw a therapist and for some months, went on ADs.

Took a pottery class (very different and unlike me to do, but my friend needed a pottery partner and I'm glad I went. I liked it a lot & took another class last winter.

Joined the Officer's Wives club after 15 years of active duty.
I Wish I had joined sooner. I met two women who got me thru a dark time and are life long friends to this day.

Joined a writer's group
Took a class in Conversational French
Took a class in Italian cooking

There is more, but these are all things you can do that do not cost a lot. Other than pilot training/skydiving, most of these ^^ activities were free, or quite cheap.

If you like music, check that out.


Good luck.