He has to hate you in order to justify his cheating. When you have a nice time together, it creates cognitive dissonance in his mind. "If she's not that bad, maybe I'm the problem? If she's not that bad, how could I have hurt her?" I know it's tempting to try and explain it away as MLC, childhood issues, indecision about the marriage, or whatever else.
Unfortunately, the reality is simple and ugly.
You could simply say "You seem angry right now. I'm here for you if you need to talk but I'm not comfortable with your raised voice and aggression." This might be against the common advice here, but I don't really believe in validating anger. Acknowledging it, yes. But not at the expense of your emotional well-being in the name of divorce busting.
One, I agree with LH-- I think they partially act like a-holes because they feel uncomfortable with the friendliness/kindness-- maybe not so much in the moment but in retrospect, and so they push you away and try to get you to be a b*ch back and justify their assumptions and behavior. I did have some sessions in the past with a DB coach who also said that WAHs are terrified to give their wives hope, and so that could be another explanation for his behavior. Don't let yourself get drawn in.
And, I agree with Scout and LH also-- you don't need to listen to verbal abuse. Walk away and ignore it. "I hear you are upset right now. I'm going to give you some space." Alison is terrific at boundaries for this kind of thing-- I know you follow her threads and her advice on mine, and she has some great lines for shutting this garbage down.
Finally, from a pure behavior modification standpoint, simply don't reinforce him with attention when he's being a jerk, and do reinforce him when he's being nice. Reinforcement might mean eye contact, smiling, engaging to a certain degree, listening, being present. When he's being a jerk, disengage, don't smile, ignore his behavior to the best of your ability. It might mean removing yourself from the situation. Don't engage by getting in a fight either-- negative attention is still attention. He doesn't have the right to spew on you.
xoxo M
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Ugh. Obviously, I mean hi SAGE. Sorry. You see how my brain is in no fit stage for a new job. And I agree with SCOUT that this is cognitive dissonance in action. OMG. I need.... sanity.'
Also, I wanted to say to your previous post-- I think it is a great thing to be able to separate your finances and not have to worry about his profligate spending.
Does not splitting the business mean you have to work together a lot still?
Anyway, thinking of you.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
My situation seems to be moving quicker than most in that I am pretty sure that H and I are heading for D.
We tried to have a cooperative conversation about splitting finances in anticipation of him moving out in a few weeks, and three sentences in he was attacking me to the point of me being in tears. I was open, loving and willing to work with him on how we would move forward, he questioned something that I believed we had tabled for this conversation and when he brought it up, I said, 'aren't we talking about that asset at a later time?'. It escalated from there, he wrote a list of people in his life that think I am controlling and manipulative (it contained his mum, sisters and some work colleagues whom I have never met and don't know me from Adam).
This isn't the first time he has written such a list to me. The last one (late last year) was all the things he doesn't like about me, including the fact that the house is a mess during the day (we are lucky enough to live in the countryside where our children free range and it isn't uncommon for there to be 12 kids in and out of my house at any given pre-Covid moment... I could spend every waking second cleaning my house and the floors would still be dirty even with just our 4 kids, let alone the coming and goings of neighbor tribes). These lists feel cruel and mean to me. I also recognize that they are a projection of his; I am the one who has done all the emotional labor in our relationship and have maintained all the relationships in our life (including his mum and sisters). I also have a huge, supportive friend and family network that has been my lifeline during his long work-related absences over the past five years. So maybe he has to build his army? Even though the last thing I would ever do it rally my Roman soldiers against him.
During our heated exchange, he claims I am controlling and psychologically manipulative (because I cried when I thought I was being open and nice during our sad conversation about splitting finances and he was mean to me). I can't say a thing without that being the constant reframe. This from a man who has been conducting a long-distance emotional affair (if not a PA) for potentially years.
I ended that evening feeling DONE. That D and moving on was better than standing for a M where my partner writes down lists of people and things he hates about me. From an H who questions what I do with my time when he's gone (uh, keeping our children alive and some of the most well-adjusted kiddos in our community??), how I have contributed to our business (uh, I was the breadwinner for YEARS to support the start of our business and have continued to lean in to any role that would further his career since) and just in general hateful comments about my shortcomings. I told him I was done and if we couldn't have civil conversations between us about the easy stuff (finances), how would we be able to amicably deal with the hard stuff (parenting plans and custody)? That maybe it was time for both of us to get legal counsel and have all future communication go through them.
He left for a night camping with our eldest and returned remorseful. He hugged me for a long time and apologized for his behavior, that he thought we could do this amicably and that he was willing to 'take it all on the chin' (gag me) and be the man he should have been from the beginning (when he realized he no longer loved me). *In our earlier heated exchange I told him he has been SO dishonorable in all of this. That of all the ways we could have ended our R, he had to have an EA, pretend to be 'working' on the M in MC, treat me like absolute shite and basically degrade me to the point of me having zero self-esteem left.
Well, his efforts lasted a total of several hours. He was working in the studio while I was feeding 12 children and simultaneously making a gourmet meal for us, and his first words to me when he came into our scene was what I had done to the fire (kids were roasting marshmallows outside over our fire pit) as it was too smokey. Did I put water on it (OMFG, I was raised in ALASKA FFS, I know how to build and maintain a f****** fire)? In a mean, condescending tone. I snapped and said no, why? After which he took his gourmet meal and ate it inside (probably texting OW) while I watched the 12 children roast marshmallows. He has been an a** to me ever since.
At what point is it just too much? I just don't want to feel this way anymore. I am a good person, a great mother and beloved by everyone I interact with except for him (could be my echo-chamber, I am sure there are people that don't love me). I am not afraid to instigate D. However, I haven't been standing as long as some, so I am questioning my resolve. I think he is in MLC, but not completely sure (he bought the car, has done everything else MLC-related).
So far he hasn't been able to go six weeks without a reconciliation attempt, so I have no idea what is going to happen when he moves out for real and actually has to take care of our children and be on his own for more than a few days. But I also just don't want this anymore. I am approaching a milestone birthday in a few weeks and I can't imagine living the rest of my life feeling like this. I am vacillating between 'GTF outta here, girl' and 'wait! what you had was real and amazing and four kids are worth standing for!'.
At one point, he came around to the house (while we were separated) - he wanted to, he'd asked to - I hadn't been chasing him in that moment. I cooked him a meal. The dog jumped up on the sofa and caught my knitting and I said H's name loudly to get his attention (there was no 'tone' at all - I just wanted his help because my hands were full cooking for us all) and he had a massive tantrum at me speaking disrespectfully to him and left. Another time he had a tantrum because at some point - possibly years before - I had let one of my houseplants die. Another time, he had a tantrum because I hadn't washed the fruit prior to putting it in the bowl. I am talking full on tantrums, with massive lists of everything that was wrong with me, and reasons why everyone I knew was just pretending to like me. I found it very hurtful.
You H is not capable of going what you want him to do. He may even, at times, want to do it himself. But he can't. He CANNOT even consistently act like a decent man around you. You have to give him a wide berth. You can't have money conversations with him (read my threads) or any other type of conversation. He isn't capable of it. Do essential money things via solicitors and otherwise, step back and avoid him like the plague. Really. Read my threads. My H was exactly like this - irrationally angry, unpredictably triggered, nasty nasty nasty. If you ever do get to piecing you don't want to be around him when he's in this mood because - I speak from personal experience - it's just too difficult to forgive. Worse than the EA.
First off, I just want to say how much you feel like a kindred spirit to me. I see so many similarities between the two of us. I can empathize with you so, so deeply in so many ways.
A few thoughts for you to take or leave.
one… do you need to be loving and kind in these interactions with him, like going through the financial questions? Why? When I read this last post, it kind of seemed to me like you had two modes in your head— working through this together with loving kindness, or everything going through your Ls. Is there a middle ground? can you be civil but not put your heart out there on the line?
two, when he acts like an @ss and goes off about ridiculous things like all the people who think you are controlling, can you step back from it enough to see he is just being a ridiculous, petty child trying to hurt you? I love Alison’s examples because they show you just how crazy these Hs can be. Mine has said similar things. I got the controlling speech the other night too; tonight I forgot to put something back in the kitchen and he huffed around for a minute when he couldn’t find it like I’d purposely keyed his car or something. In my head I just keep thinking if you hate it so much here, GTFO but I don’t say anything. I’m sure he knows I’m thinking it though. Anyway, I agree with Alison that you don’t need to take that kind of abuse and the best thing is to remove yourself from it, and do your best not to let it affect you. Don’t let his crazy get you down.
three, if you do decide to move forward with D, you are under no obligation to do anything his way or be extra nice or sad or loving about it. As Scout has reminded me several times, D is not a team sport. It is a business relationship gone sour, where your business partner has lied and stolen from the company. For me, I feel if we go this route I will be putting on my take-no-$hit and you-messed-with-the-wrong-woman uniform and going to town. I don’t have it in me to be kind through that process. I have the “H is a flawed human being who made a mistake but is redeemable” narrative and the “H is a lying cheating @ss and the sooner I can disconnect my life from his the better” narrative battling in my head. I don’t have any middle ground.
Now I’m realizing I asked you in the first paragraph about a middle ground in how you are behaving with your H while I'm saying I don't have a middle ground in how I view my H... but I feel like even with the flawed human being narrative I don’t feel like I always need to be nice to him. He doesn’t really deserve it right now. And your H may be less of an A if you’re chillier to him— I bet seeing you cry makes him feel ultra guilty so he responds by being a jerk to make you mad instead of sad. So even if you’re still feeling like you want to stand for your M, being loving doesn’t really need to be a part of how you interact with him right now.
Finally, there’s no need for you to rush in any particular direction. Sit with where you are and how you feel. I spent an hour on the phone with my one friend today, who said I’ll know when it’s time to walk away. There won’t be a question anymore. And I think she’s right. So protect yourself, focus on what YOU need, don’t let his crazy affect you, and know you’re an amazing woman and mom. He’s a complete idiot.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I have been reading threads, but unable to update mine for awhile. I am pleased for the progress that so many posters are making on their mental and/or relationship situation and I have been learning so much vicariously through other people's stories.
Mine remains fairly consistent: H is moving out in a couple of weeks (he signed a year lease) and my kiddos don't know about the upcoming changes. H is currently sleeping in the guest room, but other than that we have had some sense of normalcy since he moved back in a month ago (at least as the kids are concerned). I have had some ups and downs, but for the most part I feel like I have moved closer to detaching. In fact, I am looking forward to him moving out and not feeling like I have to walk on eggshells any longer. But I have been struggling internally with a few different issues and I am hoping this board may be able to help me:
I have been brewing on the OW (I am almost 99% sure that it has only been an EA... not that it matters to me, but holds some reference for what I am about to say). She has 4 kids too. And from what H has told me over the years, she is unhappy, although who really knows. H admitted today that he justified his EA with OW and didn't feel remorse or guilt because he felt neglected and ill-treated by me over the years (SSM, I prioritized the child-bearing and kids over his emotional needs, I was stressed and cranky after being left for weeks on my own with the littles while he had glamorous work and traveled around the world 200+ days a year, I didn't 'respect' him the way he needed...I will go into this in greater detail later). Anyway, I can't stop thinking about OW's husband in light of my own situation. That if OW wasn't on the scene, H would have leaned into our issues and given our relationship the attention it needed instead of spending all the emotional energy on her (he admitted as much today). Our family is breaking apart because of this. Should I remain silent and not contact OW's H with the information I have? Or do I owe another large family the truth and an opportunity to work out their issues? I would have been so grateful if OW's H has said something to me (assuming he knew) before we got to this point. This isn't some affair with a young single person. This is another entire family, same size as ours, that could be saved. Or am I deluding myself?
Back to H's thoughts on why he is leaving me:
1. I have been controlling and manipulative (he wavers on this... I know I am controlling to a certain degree, but running a household with 4 kids on my own demands a certain level of control-- manipulative has only come up since BD). He would come home from work travels and we would integrate him into the fold as much as we could in the week or two he was around, but it was hard on all of us. I felt like we got better at it over the years, but it never was 'easy' to give up control of the household systems that were in place when he was gone. I did research on military families and was raised in a household where my own father was gone a lot, so it seemed normal to me (read: I wasn't needy, demanding, nor did I blame or guilt him for his absences, although none of my friends could understand my acceptance of this).
2. I didn't acknowledge his love language (physical touch/sex). Which I attributed to my utter exhaustion at having 4 babies in 5 years (the first 3 years of which I was the sole breadwinner, working 60+ hours a week AND managing the household and children etc). I think every woman here can relate to being 'touched out' at the end of the day with suckling newborns and needy toddlers. Excuses, excuses, I know. But I know of no woman friend of mine that didn't feel the same way and their husbands didn't leave them for this reason.
3. I didn't maintain my body/looks (highly important to H, he works in a field where looks are everything). See above. I also had a devastating family loss when baby #3 was 5 weeks old... I spiraled into depression and failed to lose the baby weight before #4 came along. He wanted to show me off, I wanted to hide in a hole.
4. I became resentful. Actually, I was severely depressed and didn't recognize it. I probably did take out my frustrations on the only adult in the room (H).
5. And then there is a litany of things that I just can't accept (have evidence to the contrary, feels like H is 'making things up to justify his cause'): there was no 'spark' between us, he married too young, he wanted a big family and I was the right person for that purpose (though no other purpose?), he loved me but wasn't in love with me, he felt forced into marriage (we did elope, we are from different countries and needed to get married to be together in the long run, although he wanted to be with me for life from day one, he wanted to get M and was undying in this until BD), we just don't 'intersect' the right way (again, since BD; prior to BD, I was the dream wife and love of his life and how lucky were we to have found each other?!?)
Sorry, this is all a lot. I have started to vision myself in a place where none of this matters, where I am completely detached and don't care (it will be a lot easier when he is out of the house and we are living separate lives). I am working my way there, but am not completely there yet.
Should I remain silent and not contact OW's H with the information I have? Or do I owe another large family the truth and an opportunity to work out their issues? I would have been so grateful if OW's H has said something to me (assuming he knew) before we got to this point. This isn't some affair with a young single person. This is another entire family, same size as ours, that could be saved. Or am I deluding myself?
Hi Sage4,
I don't believe you owe OW's husband anything. It sounds like you have a conscience that doesn't rest easily seeing others hurt, and if we all spoke up, wouldn't our society be a better place?
DB points out that exposing the A often doesn't help you--it could, for example, sink their relationship and make OW more available--but that wasn't your motive anyway.
One... omfg, I am continually blown away by how similar our Hs are on all of this. Much of what your H has said to you about the reasons why he strayed sounds like word-for-word things my H has said to me. None of it is him taking responsibility for his own actions. All just justifications to let himself off the hook for the affair. I hope you can recognize that and aren't trying to internalize all of this. I know it really helped me when I realized that my H was just following the exact same script as all these other WAHs.
Also, I'm sorry. But four children with your H gallivanting all over the world, running a business, running a home, all by yourself, dealing with major life stressors and births and depression-- I think all of your reactions are totally normal and human. So I hope you are able to take a step back on all of this and realize that yes, maybe you could have done things differently, but you were doing the best you could with the tools you had at the time, and it doesn't sound like he was being all that great of a partner to you during that time either.
On the EA vs the PA. I have to say, if there has been any opportunity for this to be a PA, if I were you I'd assume that was the case. I'm not trying to mindread here, but I do think that having crossed that line might be part of the reason that he is clinging so desperately to the justifications for why you were so terrible and why he was leaving (I notice that is what he's saying, not that he's leaving because of OW). I also wonder if having that lie out there and unaddressed, and his inability to tell you, is part of the reason he got scared off of Ring. That may or may not be helpful or true, but it just really sticks with me that there are so many other similarities and my H also swore up and down it was just an EA. I know that for him having crossed that line is part of what has made him feel like he needed to commit to the A and that being "true love" because otherwise he has to look at himself as a philanderer, not just someone who fell in love accidentally after his wife demonstrated she didn't love him with the SSM.
My H stuck to this line for so, so, so long. When he finally admitted this *was* about her and not about us, I think that was a big shift in our conversations. He really really wanted to have this narrative that he fell out of love with me because I broke him with the SSM and we were separating because it would never work out between us, and the A was a side note and not the reason. I think that was also why he hid the full depth and breadth of the A from me for so long as well-- really hurt his narrative to himself that he wasn't such a bad guy. And he is now very scared of having to face his own behavior and why he did the things he did if he recommits to the M, because in his head he doesn't really need to do that work if he rides off into the sunset with AP.
Regarding whether or not to tell the OW's H... you might look at BluWave's thread as I think she became friends with the OW's H during the time, and there may be some lessons in there for you. I agree you don't owe him anything-- you did not do this, this is 100% on your H and his W, their bad behavior, not yours. So you shouldn't internalize that wrongdoing and somehow feel you're behaving inappropriately by not saying something to the H. I would guess it might have a negative effect on the possibility of Ring with your H, so I would be really really certain that you aren't doing it partially to get the OW in trouble or possibly get her to retreat, because my guess is that would backfire. Do you know him personally? I seem to recall that she is involved in some way with your business, right? Is your H saying he is leaving in order to pursue a R with her, or just that he can't stay M to you?
Here's a thought for you to take or leave-- what do you think about asking your H if the OW's H is aware? And saying you're thinking about getting in touch with him? Exactly what you just said to us here-- that he's admitted he'd have worked on the M in the absence of OW, and you're really sad that another family is breaking up, and you really wish someone had told you if they'd known, and maybe they will have a chance to save their family if it isn't too late. He will probably freak out and get really mad, none of your beeswax, etc. But if you do end up telling him you didn't do it behind your H's back and if you stand by it being the right thing to do, I would not want to have it be a secret. Maybe that is really bad advice and I'm not recommending it by any means, but just a thought to chew on.
Hang in there Sage. You're amazing and you don't deserve this $hit.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
