Now that W has made her decision, she is really going hard down that path. W is methodically working through separating the bank account, credit card, health insurance, etc. Even the password to our supermarket rewards card has changed.
W can file for D after 12 months separation, which would be mid-June. W has agreed to hold off for a couple of weeks as my 50th birthday is at the end of the month.
W is not entitled to any maintenance as we are taking weekly turns looking after the kids. We talked about how we would pay expenses like school fees, uniforms, shoes for the kids etc. W suggested she give me 20% of her salary and I pay the difference. I let her know I couldn't agree to that on the spot. I got all our credit card and bank account spending details for 12 months and did an analysis, which I shared with her. To cover things equally would mean she would have to give me 46% of her salary. I e-mailed the details to W with a note explaining this was just the starting point so we could have a proper discussion. I assumed she'd look at it and make a counter-proposal. To me, the difference between a 50/50 split and what she can afford to contribute would be a kind of maintenance.
W was angry about the calculation. I explained again that the calculation was so we could both see what our actual expenses were and determine what was fair. W said she would make sure she paid her 46%, though directly wherever possible and not to me. She kept saying how I've "had the use of her money" for the year since she moved out. I didn't understand this, as both our pays have gone into the joint account and been used for all our expenses (mortgage, groceries, health insurance, etc). W feels that because I had put some of my salary in a savings account, whereas she had no savings, that I was taking something of hers. The fact that I had more than matched her salary in paying off the bills, and I'd paid extra on the mortgage, and that I didn't see the savings account as particularly my own, didn't seem to matter.
We talked about where we stand on D as Christians. W said that I had broken our wedding vows so it was okay for her to D me. Suprised, I asked how I had broken our vows. She said that I had been an "emotional abuser". I am not really sure what she is talking about but here again seems another reason (along with neglected, not priority) that hadn't come up before. I can only think W is talking about how we would argue. I'd always try to find out how things fit together ("You said X but you did Y") where as W was always trying to shut things down.
I suspect the "emotional abuser" tag has come from MIL. She is always reading up on things like NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming), EFT (Emotional Freedom Technique - aka "Tapping") and various (pseudo?) medical and psychology books etc.
One of the worrying things coming out of the discussion with W was the number of extremely old past hurts that are obviously still fresh and hurtful in W's mind. She is still angry about an argument we had over 20 years ago when we split up at the shopping centre and both separately waited to catch up at different meeting points. (I was positive we'd agreed to meet at the car, W was sure we'd agreed to meet somewhere like the food court.)
My Mum called me yesterday to say W had called her to discuss doing something for my birthday. Mum can't travel or have more than five people in her house because of the lockdown restrictions. We share the same birthday, so catching up with her would be great.
Mum said she asked W if there was any chance of us getting back together and W said no. W said she has spent the last year trying to heal herself, and that my long working hours weren't the main problem in our relationship. W told Mum that when she had problems my response was to try and solve the situation and get her to "pick herself up". W felt she could not discuss things with me so stopped bothering. (Yes - must master validation.)
As for me, I have avoided contacting W where possible. We've seen each other a few extra times - the school has called us in twice to meetings about S15, and the kids insisted we all celebrate the dog's birthday (don't ask!!). I am busy with work during the day. It's good when the kids are with me but pretty lonely when they're not, especially at night now it's cold and gets darker sooner. I've lost 6kg over the course of the last three weeks, partly through intermittent fasting but about 3kg directly after W told me her decision to D as I couldn't sleep or face food for a couple of days. I spent part of today replacing the mesh in one of the flyscreen doors that has been shredded in part by the dog. The lockdown restrictions are easing here. The lockdown restrictions have eased somewhat, which means our church can hold weekly prayer meetings again. I intend to go on Wednesday. It will be nice to see some real people. I need to get myself to bed earlier.
W can file for D after 12 months separation, which would be mid-June. W has agreed to hold off for a couple of weeks as my 50th birthday is at the end of the month.
She has agreed. Does that mean you asked her to hold off?
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W suggested she give me 20% of her salary and I pay the difference. I let her know I couldn't agree to that on the spot.
Good for you!
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W was angry about the calculation.
That's a typical reaction. They don't anticipate paying an equal amount.
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We talked about where we stand on D as Christians. W said that I had broken our wedding vows so it was okay for her to D me. Suprised, I asked how I had broken our vows. She said that I had been an "emotional abuser".
She is going to be illogical and paint you as the bad guy, to give herself justification.
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One of the worrying things coming out of the discussion with W was the number of extremely old past hurts that are obviously still fresh and hurtful in W's mind. She is still angry about an argument we had over 20 years ago when we split up at the shopping centre and both separately waited to catch up at different meeting points. (I was positive we'd agreed to meet at the car, W was sure we'd agreed to meet somewhere like the food court.)
I want you to see how this is all part of the mindset of a WW. Her wayward foundation begins with resentment. She never let go of this incident. Carrying it around for 20 yrs? That's on her.
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My Mum called me yesterday to say W had called her to discuss doing something for my birthday. Mum can't travel or have more than five people in her house because of the lockdown restrictions. We share the same birthday, so catching up with her would be great.
Mum said she asked W if there was any chance of us getting back together and W said no.
Can you see how illogical you WW is? On one hand, she doesn't want to be responsible for paying her equal share of bills, and she still holds old resentment against you........while and on the other hand, she wants to continue being included in family celebrations. I mean, she wants a D, so why be involved with planning your birthday? We see this a lot on the board.
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W told Mum that when she had problems my response was to try and solve the situation and get her to "pick herself up". W felt she could not discuss things with me so stopped bothering. (Yes - must master validation.)
From what I've gathered, it's a common male response. Women want to be heard. If she asks for a solution, then give your opinion. Otherwise, a husband should listen, give eye contact, and nod his head.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
W can file for D after 12 months separation, which would be mid-June. W has agreed to hold off for a couple of weeks as my 50th birthday is at the end of the month.
Originally Posted by sandi2
She has agreed. Does that mean you asked her to hold off?
Yes. When W told me in mid May that she didn't want to reconcile and would go for D, I asked when. She said she didn't know. (The way she is moving, I'm sure she meant sooner rather than later.) I don't know how long these things take, or what goes on while they're underway, so I asked her if she could hold off until after my birthday. It would be pretty miserable if some part of the D happened or turned up on my birthday.
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W was angry about the calculation.
Originally Posted by sandi2
That's a typical reaction. They don't anticipate paying an equal amount.
There's so much information on here I forget where it all comes from, but I remember that I can't 'nice' her back (which I think is from Steve85) and also about the need to earn W's respect by standing up for myself. I have felt like going back and checking she is okay with it and seeing if she needs additional financial help, but that's the wrong move, right?
Originally Posted by sandi2
She is going to be illogical and paint you as the bad guy, to give herself justification.
Yes, it really feels like she is fueling the fire by remembering ever single thing she can.
Originally Posted by sandi2
I want you to see how this is all part of the mindset of a WW. Her wayward foundation begins with resentment. She never let go of this incident. Carrying it around for 20 yrs? That's on her.
I have mellowed a lot but in my 20s I had a very quick temper. I'd get cross about something, be very hot and angry about it, but the anger would all subside within 10 - 20 seconds and I'd be left feeling foolish and embarassed for getting so upset about <whatever>. I'd pretty much always end up apologising and giving in on things. W on the other hand could get mad about something and stay cross about it for a long time. So, to me, it always seemed we'd have these arguments, both would get cross but I'd end up saying sorry. It felt like I never won a single argument. I can remember thinking several times "It's just not possible that I could be wrong 100% of the time!"
I had that thought in mind at the time the incident about where we were meeting blew up. I was certain we'd said we'd meet at the car, and thought I'm not going to back down this time, so I really stuck to my guns. For a long time I thought of it as the only argument we'd ever had that I'd 'won', and then I forgot about it. It took me by surprise to discover W is still upset about it. If I'd known it would bother her so much, it certainly wouldn't have been the hill I chose to die on.
The other relevant fact is that W's mother was with us that day. When we all found each other, after me waiting at the car for thirty minutes and them waiting for the same amount of time somewhere else, we had the "Where have you been? We said we'd meet at X" conversation and turned to MIL for confirmation. I could see by MIL's eyes that she had no idea where we had agreed to meet, but she automatically backed up W. So MIL was a witness to this argument and W had a second voice saying she was right. And stupidly, I stuck to my guns.
Originally Posted by sandi2
Can you see how illogical you WW is? On one hand, she doesn't want to be responsible for paying her equal share of bills, and she still holds old resentment against you........while and on the other hand, she wants to continue being included in family celebrations. I mean, she wants a D, so why be involved with planning your birthday? We see this a lot on the board.
I got the impression she was doing it for my sake, or the kids. She talked about how we can't do much because of the covid 19 lockdown restrictions, but that she was going to really push the boat out when she turns 50. It was definitely a "Plans not involving Joe" comment.
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W told Mum that when she had problems my response was to try and solve the situation and get her to "pick herself up". W felt she could not discuss things with me so stopped bothering. (Yes - must master validation.)
Originally Posted by sandi2
From what I've gathered, it's a common male response. Women want to be heard. If she asks for a solution, then give your opinion. Otherwise, a husband should listen, give eye contact, and nod his head. smile
True. This is something I've only learned since BD. It's another one of those gender differences that show we are being good to each other but it doesn't get through. The way we go about it is mistaken but the intention and love are still there. There's a great video on YT called "It's Not About the Nail" on this which is a quick watch. I tried to share the insight with W a couple of times (in 2018, before I was on the forum) but it didn't make any difference. It just shows how important it is to validate.
Another gender difference insight I learned was that the way W communicated her concerns to me felt like (but weren't) attacks, which activated my (heightened, male) fight-or-flight response. Instead of looking for the concern to address inside the message, the way it was communicated stopped me from really hearing her (hence the 'surprise' of BD). I started working on this before W moved out but it's another thing I really wish I'd known years ago.
My niece stayed with W last September, while she was doing work experience in our area. I had to tell her about the separation before she came so she knew the situation and could choose where to stay. We had a good discussion about marriage and married life and I was able to share with her all the things I'd learned.
I would not wish this situation on anyone. This is worse than the agony I went through when my Dad battled and lost to cancer over several years. I will certainly do my best to be an advocate for marriage, as MWD says, any chance I get.
W's maternal grandfather passed away this morning. She asked me to bring the kids around so she could break the news to them. W sounded 'hard', holding it all in I think. She had to ring one of her brothers and let him know the sad news.
Both the kids took it pretty well. W asked them if they wanted to attend the funeral. S15 said yes, so he could be there for his mum. The funeral will be in another state and there are some covid 19 hurdles to sort out. W needs to get exemption permits to avoid having to go into quarantine for two weeks on arrival. We think this will qualify under the compassionate grounds exemption. W talked about driving, as she didn't think flying was an option. I offered to drive her, or take turns driving with her, even if I didn't go to the funeral. W didn't say anything. I had a look and found some flights so W will look into it tomorrow.
Today was meant to be hand-over day but D13 wanted to stay with me. She flipped back and forwards a lot about where she wanted to be. It wasn't an ideal day for her to be contrary but I'm sure it's to do with Pop's passing, at least in part. (Last week she told me how much she hates W for the separation and related things. I'm sure 'hate' is misleading. I'm sure that in reality she is overwhelmingly sad. She never wants to talk about or acknowledge the situation. She said something to me which showed a real desperation for things to be put 'right'.)
W and I sat outside for a little while. W told me about a job interview she has at work tomorrow, and we talked a little bit about Pop. W called me by name at one point, which is such a rare thing. W had intended to go grocery shopping today but was completely sideswiped by the situation. I offered to go shopping for her, while she stayed with the kids. W didn't say anything but the next thing I knew was that she and S15 were going to do it after I left. Maybe she just wanted the distraction, but it really feels like she won't let herself be helped by me one iota, even at a time like this.
I took D13 home, got S15's things together, then took them back to W. W looked utterly forlorn, all lost and subdued and red round the eyes, like she was totally exhausted and had been crying. She didn't talk to me when I first arrived at the house. I wanted to sweep her up in my arms and comfort her, but she is projecting a stone wall at me.
My heart goes out to W and I would like to be there for her. A forlorn hope, obviously. I would also like to go to the funeral, to pay respects to Pop and see Grandma and be there for all my family. S15 has texted me however, saying he wants to talk to me tomorrow about me not going to the funeral. It's a bit of a letdown but whatever W wants. I certainly don't want to impose myself.
I am glad S15 is there. He has been hugging his mum and holding her hand. I wish I was able to comfort W but I am very proud of S15. This is not a time to think about us or me. W let me give her a hug for a little while when we first arrived, but that seems as much as she will let me do.
The only other wrench is that I have a milestone birthday this time next week. We were going to go as a family to visit my Mum. (Mum & I share the same birthday.) Mum is in her late 70s and can't have many people visit due to the covid 19 restrictions. It is more than likely that the funeral will be around the same time, so W and family will either be at the funeral or travelling for it. It's one more reason why I'd also like to go with them. It looks like instead I will travel solo to see Mum. Not that I don't want to see my Mum, but she's already said no need to visit, don't get me anything, don't make a fuss etc. I suppose having a party of the two of us is better than both of us sitting alone. I've got the dog though. Hmm, need to bring the dog on a three hour roadtrip to Mum's. Joy!
Yo Joey D you seem like a really nice guy but you have a difficult time listening and understanding. She wants nothing to do with you but you keep trying to force yourself on her which will push her further away. What should you do? Give her space and more space and then even more space. You have some serious work to do if you ever want to turn this around.
W is interstate with S15 and D13. They attended W's grandfather's funeral on Friday. Flying would have been faster but W drove as a covid 19 precaution, to avoid mixing with people in a plane and airport. Sensible, particularly given there were elderly relatives at the funeral, including grandma who is in her 90s.
W did the drive over two days. She let me know they'd arrived at their first day's stop by sending me a photo of the kids at the motor inn. She sent me a short message on the second day to say they'd arrived safely.
I drove to my Mum's place on Saturday. Not as big a drive as W did, but still three hours each way. Mum & I celebrated our joint birthday on Sunday. I texted W a photo of my parked car to let her know I'd arrived safely. I drove back home on Sunday afternoon as I'd been called into the office on Monday.
The family facetimed me on Sunday to wish us Happy Birthday, starting with D13 then S15, then W. MIL got in on the act, which caused some consternation at our end, though we made sure we were polite to her.
There are only a few days left of the school term, then we are into two weeks of school holidays. W is staying on with her mum a bit longer. She is not sure if she will return this week or stretch it out. It depends on her work.
We are now in uncharted waters. W said she would wait until after my birthday to file for D. Something seems to happen every time W sees her mother so I wonder if it will happen soon. We haven't told the kids yet. I don't think W would tell them without me being there, but I'm not sure. We only spoke about it once, briefly. I got the impression she might file first then tell, so that it's a done deal when the kids find out.
I really want to contact W and ask her to reconsider. I haven't - I'm writing it here as an alternative to actually doing it, hoping it will release some steam pressure. I'm keep in mind that DB is counter-intuitive, and that what I really feel like doing isn't what I actually need to do.
W's dad called me while I was driving home on Sunday. He encouraged me to keep perservering but also to let God have full reign over the situation.
A quiet night after arriving home. Cooked a steak. Here's to a better birthday next year!
Calling her to ask if she'll reconsider D won't change her mind/feelings. Finding something else, like a birthday for instance, is not a solution. I think you know that in your heart, but you are trying to prolong things. The tighter you try to hold her, the more she'll want to break free.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Really sorry to hear you're going through it. Im brand new to all this, my BD was a month ago so I wont try to give you advice just wanted to show some support and wish you a happy birthday. Hang in there and keep DB'ing. I'm trying and I don't think/know if its really affected my MR but it is helping my peace of mind. I wish you all the best. Know you're not alone. I've wanted to reach out to my WW everyday, but I haven't and I feel good that I haven't. I think Sandi's got some serious wisdom on the WW topic so I'm trying to heed that advice.
I believe every WW must suffer some type of loss due to her own choices to rebel and disrespect her H and the M. It has to be personal for her and it has to cut deeply. It may, or may not, have anything directly to do with her H, but she'll make the connection in how it has everything to do with the disrespectful, selfish, and rebellious choices she's made. If she is humbled, then hopefully, remorse for her choices will come, and not too late. You see, she is not going to experience all those loving feelings for her LBH, until remorse and humbleness can wash away some of that negative mindset that grew out of control. She'll have to forgive her H from those things in the past that she resented. Really forgive him. She'll have to be willing to change her heart, and her life. In other words, stop living and making decisions from a place of emotions, and chose to do what is right. IMHO, if she doesn't have remorse and humility, I don't think the couple will have a long term, happy reconciliation. They may co-exist, but it won't be happy and fulfilling.
Sandi, do you think that is the only way for the WW to have a change of heart for the M? It doesn't seem to be something we have any influence over, so it relies on pure chance/luck/God's intervention, without which there is no hope.
