InLove, ok there are some baby steps. But the red flag for me is still the push for a separation agreement. As if he is playing nice so you will too.
Good luck, I hope your MR is saved. Just be careful, protect yourself and your heart, and be ready for the new life to come, whether with or without him.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I think it's because he got on his mother's plan and she probably said don't give this number to her at all. I mean, there is no reason other than that. He still emails me and is being goofy on his emails. I'm not contacting him anyway on purpose. We'll see what happens next week. I have a busy weekend and won't be home myself until Monday night.
We'll see how he is when he returns from his mother's.
InLove, ok there are some baby steps. But the red flag for me is still the push for a separation agreement. As if he is playing nice so you will too.
What would be the point of doing a separation? I had already agreed to sell the house. What would be the point of talking about our marriage and how we are healing it? I have never known this man to be a game player. He is usually genuine. Truthfully, if he was a terrible husband, I wouldn't be hanging on. He has been a good husband, sweet and doting, over the years.
He claims the separation papers protect us both to split it all 50/50. He says he doesn't want to rush repairing our marriage because there was so much fighting and the patterns we were in need broken. He also said he has to get his mother to accept me.
InLove, ok there are some baby steps. But the red flag for me is still the push for a separation agreement. As if he is playing nice so you will too.
What would be the point of doing a separation? I had already agreed to sell the house. What would be the point of talking about our marriage and how we are healing it? I have never known this man to be a game player. He is usually genuine. Truthfully, if he was a terrible husband, I wouldn't be hanging on. He has been a good husband, sweet and doting, over the years.
He claims the separation papers protect us both to split it all 50/50. He says he doesn't want to rush repairing our marriage because there was so much fighting and the patterns we were in need broken. He also said he has to get his mother to accept me.
All of us LBSs tend to romanticize our WAS's pre-BD behavior. As if they were perfect before BD. You admit he almost cheated on you 16 years ago. That hardly makes him perfect. Also, recent behavior, to me, trumps previous behavior. The first time someone cheats, rapes, commits murder....etc....isn't overridden by the fact they didn't before. Someone that murders someone isn't NOT a murderer simply because they hadn't commit murder before.
Your H may have been awesome before all this. But he isn't now. You do not have to be around these sitches long to see patterns. People that are planning an exit often times play nice to try to get their LBS to "go along" with the plan. "OKay, you don't want a D, so let's just agree on a separation for now." That is a baby step.....IN THE WRONG direction. It is all about perspective. You might think that moving down from D, to separation is a baby step toward R. He could be seeing it from his perspective that getting you to agree to separation is a baby step toward ultimate D.
You know him better than me. Maybe he is genuine. All I can tell you is that all of us LBSs wanted to take our WASs at face-value....and very few of them can be.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
InLove, please understand, that those of us chiming into your sitch are trying to HELP you. We aren't trying to argue with you and make you hate your H, or want S or D. Or anything like that. We are simply trying to get you to see through what we call the "LBS fog" (we all were there once), to try to see your sitch objectively and realistically.
One of the ways I like to tell LBSs to think about this is to step back and look at your sitch as if YOU were a friend of yours. What would you tell your friend to do? How would you advise your friend? What things would you point out to them? This is difficult exercise (because we are too personally invested into our own sitch), but it can be very useful. This forum is full of LBSs that take their WASs words too truthfully and literally. That think that the reasons that the WAS has given for wanting out are true and right. That their spouse was wonderful and everything, and that the LBS's life will be over if they can't save this thing at all costs.
But in truth, very little of what they say can be believed. The reasons they point to for why they are doing what are doing, while maybe a smidgen of truth, are not WHY they are doing what they are doing, it is an excuse. And even then it DOESN'T excuse their behavior at all! Because a LBS isn't perfect doesn't give the WAS the right to break their vows. And finally, he may have been a good H before, but he wasn't perfect. And you are way too attached if your happiness is in his hands. And believe it or not, no matter what happens, you WILL be okay.
Hang in there. Keep posting. Feel free to take all the advice you get and do with it what you will. Listen to, ignore it, but understand it comes from a place of wanting to help by applying everything we've all learned from our own sitches and from others' sitches, and wanting to share that with you.
Lastly, sometimes LBSs are a lot like teenagers. If they'd only listen to those with experience their lives would be much smoother, and they'd avoid a lot of mistakes. Unfortunately, many of them have to make the same mistakes we all have already made, to learn the hard way.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I never said he was perfect. I said he was a good husband. There is a difference. No one is perfect. I have almost had an affair myself.
I'm done with the forum. I have anxiety, and this forum is not beneficial for me to listen to at all. The book says to watch for baby steps and not to rush things. Listen to what they are saying. Listen for cues. Being in limbo [censored], but there is no reason for him to randomly bring stuff up and to start acting like my old partner again if he wasn't really attempting to begin again. He is relaxing and turning into the same man. He is mentioning things in the future, together. Not a lot, but a little. I am really tired of hearing that I should consider my marriage over, again and again. Maybe you are right and my marriage is over, but I don't need to sit in anxiety mode because that doesn't show positive changes to my husband. It makes me panic. I am not sitting there crying and begging or fighting with him. We are staying up talking until 12:30-3:30 AM. For someone to "play games" until 3:30 AM would be weird. Why not say, I have to go to sleep? Good talk.
I am following the advice in the book, and leaving the super =negative talk behind. I'm sorry. We did have issues in our marriage that won't be fixed overnight. Obviously, he hasn't completely snapped back, but he does seem to be coming around.
Okay InLove, good luck. I will keep your sitch in my prayers. I saw you trending this way (leaving the forum) which is why I posted the last post.
I really wish we all could tell you that it is all rainbows and unicorns in your future. I think if you gave this forum a chance you'd see that we transition from brutally honesty to shake you into reality, to encouragement and advice once it appears the WAS is starting to come around.
This is difficult. We've all been through it and we can help you, but sometimes the truth and reality is anxiety producing.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I don't think the book condones playing games, which is more like acting like a teenager. I'll have it finished this weekend, but nothing I've read so far goes against what I've been doing. And it doesn't seem to condone playing games, acting like you're moving on. I'm not really sure what you all are trying to get me to do, but I think game playing is stupid. If that's what it takes to keep a marriage, I don't want to be in that kind of marriage. I want a partner who values me for who I am. Who values our marriage and our bond. Who is open and honest, like I am open and honest. If I can't be, then I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who don't want to game play either. I'm attractive, highly educated, and I make a decent income. I don't need to waste my time playing pointless games.
I am very sorry that you are feeling unsupported or frustrated by the forum. I hope you will at the very least consider what I say. I have been reading here consistently for about 5 years -- longer than I have been posting -- and I have seen people get offended, hurt, or simply not agree with the advice. I have myself at times felt this way and unfortunately I think I have rubbed a few people the wrong way too. Sometimes I avoid posting because of it! Other times I really try and be mindful of the way I word things. I am still learning too! Overall though, I know without a doubt that the advice here is the only way to save a M and more so, the only way we can save ourselves.
I hope you will reconsider giving up on us. I am not sure how many other people's threads you have read, but there are so many wonderful people here and they truly want to help others. Everyone here has been through a similar heartbreak and devastation. Some of us have been able to recover our Ms (like Sandi, Steve85 and myself) and many unfortunately do not. However, we all have one common goal in mind when we post. We all want to give solid advice that will help do two things. #1. increase the likelihood that our spouses will eventually return to the M, and #2. help posters heal emotionally, detach from an unhealthy need for someone else, and thus learn to grow as people verses allowing it to take us down and become destructive. What I firmly believe is that you cannot have #1 before #2.
Here is where I want to change your mind a bit. So please just hear me out. You mention that the book does not condone game playing, and I completely agree. I have read her books myself. I want to assure you that no one here is suggesting that you play games or do anything vastly different. Here is the twist. The more we read posters' stories and the more we share our own stories, the further we come to understand that we all share something in common -- an unhealthy need for someone else. When we are rejected and in the trenches, we tend to cling on even tighter. This soon spirals into desperation and thus desperate behaviors. This no longer serves reconciling a M and it no longer serves us personally. In fact the opposite begins to transpire -- we cling to them tighter and then as a result, they run away even faster. We being to lose ourselves and then we lose our M beyond repair.
By reading here and by helping others, I have learned that I cannot control anyone other than myself. I cannot control my H and what he will do. He is a person of his own freewill and so am I. I must allow him to make his own choices in life. What I can control is the kind of person that I want to be -- I still have a lot of work to do. I want to be stronger, healthier and happier. I want to know that I am okay with my M intact, but also that I will be okay in life without it. The only thing I was left to do, was to let him go. He learned to fall on his own and that I would not catch him. In the mean time, I learned self preservation and to be the best version of myself so that he would want to come back. And if he didn't, I knew I could still have a beautiful life.
I am not suggesting that you are doing anything wrong. I have a lot more thoughts on your sitch and I would love to offer you support. If that does not interest you, then I completely respect that too. I sincerely want you to reconsider. I see hope that your H will come back around. I also know from experience that it can take a very, very long time. It can be a dark and difficult road, and you deserve support and advice to help you through it.
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
I am very sorry that you are feeling unsupported or frustrated by the forum. I hope you will at the very least consider what I say. I have been reading here consistently for about 5 years -- longer than I have been posting -- and I have seen people get offended, hurt, or simply not agree with the advice. I have myself at times felt this way and unfortunately I think I have rubbed a few people the wrong way too. Sometimes I avoid posting because of it! Other times I really try and be mindful of the way I word things. I am still learning too! Overall though, I know without a doubt that the advice here is the only way to save a M and more so, the only way we can save ourselves.
I hope you will reconsider giving up on us. I am not sure how many other people's threads you have read, but there are so many wonderful people here and they truly want to help others. Everyone here has been through a similar heartbreak and devastation. Some of us have been able to recover our Ms (like Sandi, Steve85 and myself) and many unfortunately do not. However, we all have one common goal in mind when we post. We all want to give solid advice that will help do two things. #1. increase the likelihood that our spouses will eventually return to the M, and #2. help posters heal emotionally, detach from an unhealthy need for someone else, and thus learn to grow as people verses allowing it to take us down and become destructive. What I firmly believe is that you cannot have #1 before #2.
Here is where I want to change your mind a bit. So please just hear me out. You mention that the book does not condone game playing, and I completely agree. I have read her books myself. I want to assure you that no one here is suggesting that you play games or do anything vastly different. Here is the twist. The more we read posters' stories and the more we share our own stories, the further we come to understand that we all share something in common -- an unhealthy need for someone else. When we are rejected and in the trenches, we tend to cling on even tighter. This soon spirals into desperation and thus desperate behaviors. This no longer serves reconciling a M and it no longer serves us personally. In fact the opposite begins to transpire -- we cling to them tighter and then as a result, they run away even faster. We being to lose ourselves and then we lose our M beyond repair.
By reading here and by helping others, I have learned that I cannot control anyone other than myself. I cannot control my H and what he will do. He is a person of his own freewill and so am I. I must allow him to make his own choices in life. What I can control is the kind of person that I want to be -- I still have a lot of work to do. I want to be stronger, healthier and happier. I want to know that I am okay with my M intact, but also that I will be okay in life without it. The only thing I was left to do, was to let him go. He learned to fall on his own and that I would not catch him. In the mean time, I learned self preservation and to be the best version of myself so that he would want to come back. And if he didn't, I knew I could still have a beautiful life.
I am not suggesting that you are doing anything wrong. I have a lot more thoughts on your sitch and I would love to offer you support. If that does not interest you, then I completely respect that too. I sincerely want you to reconsider. I see hope that your H will come back around. I also know from experience that it can take a very, very long time. It can be a dark and difficult road, and you deserve support and advice to help you through it.
Blu
You are very sensible and this is an excellent post. Thank you for not being harsh and rude. There have been a few posters on here with excellent advice and a more balanced approach, and I have received a lot of help from them so far.
I have actually been doing some pulling back and establishing boundaries. I have been reading books to work on myself (books about anxiety, controlling behavior, and how to stop spiraling thoughts). I have been meditating and doing brainspotting therapy. I have been seeing a counselor who does emotion based therapy and some regression therapy. I have set a doctor's appointment per my counselor's request that I start taking anxiety medication because I have some childhood trauma. I have not been badgering or hounding my husband (something he said made him realize I was changing). I have been careful while speaking to him, and I have tried to be understanding (offering validation--I understand why that would hurt you. I had no clue that you felt that way. I can't believe that I made you feel so bad--and apologizing for what I've done).
I have not been messaging him, except when absolutely necessary about the house, and I have not been asking him where he was (another thing he pointed out made him realize I was changing--again, I am telling you the info HE OFFERED ON HIS OWN). I have not been griping that he was coming home at 2:30 AM or not at all. I have been hanging out with friends, going to book club meetups and salsa dancing classes, having dinner, going to the ballet, and filling my time with my own stuff. I do sometimes sit at home and watch my shows and have a glass of wine, enjoying my night to myself, and going to bed when I want to go to bed (another thing he pointed out troubled him--he was afraid I was meeting guys).
When he brought up divorce, which he was trying to push through, I have simply been repeating: I understand that you want a divorce and I can see why. However, I love you and don't want a divorce. Obviously, if you press it, I will honor your decision.
I did tell him I countered his petition with legal separation with an attempt at reconciliation, but the decision is obviously his, and I dropped it. I did tell him calmly once or twice that there is no reason we can't mend the marriage, but I did understand his perspective and I know he doesn't feel the same. My counselor actually gave me these tips based on our discussion of my husband's actions surrounding his newfound mother and our history as a couple.
I established boundaries by insisting he take the cameras down and unlock the heater/ac controls or I would leave. I said I will not live under the gun. He made threats and yelled at me. I calmly told him to collect himself, and that I would not make any exceptions for someone to be able to watch me. I told him I have plenty of friends and will be able to find a person to stay with until I can get an apartment. He ranted that he was happy her was getting a divorce. I said calmly, I love you and don't want a divorce, but you are right, this isn't working.
That night he came home and broke down saying he missed our old life, and I have felt a little apprehensive about what to think, which is why I started asking what others think. But all the negative talk about his baby steps back home, wow, he's been coming home all week. Wow, he just told me he wants to do a separation instead and he says he wants to try and make a new, better marriage. Wow, he's told me he loves me. Wow, he's started hugging me tightly and holding on longer and longer. Wow, he's started talking about mending us. Wow, he's told me he will never find what we have and it's worth saving (ON HIS OWN). Wow, he's been talking to me until the wee hours of the morning and telling me how much fun he's had with me. Wow, he's started to mention the future. Wow, he's started teasing me again. Wow, he's started to seem happier and joke more. Wow, he's started asking me what I want for dinner. Wow, he's started to look at me differently are ALL met with "he's playing you." He just wants you to do what he wants you to do. He has no intention of returning because you haven't been pulling away and detaching enough. This is why I said I had to quit. I can't deal with negative talk like this. I am giving him space. He doesn't have to come home, and next week may be different. I am taking this day by day.
