I'm Broken III

[HelenaJ]

You are really emotional, I caution you to not text when feeling like this... I know you really do not want advice but this was tough to read.

I'm going back over the past couple days in my mind and I wanted to ask you more about this. Can you elaborate on why specifically my text was tough to read? I want to make sure I understand why and not assume why because you didn't exactly say.

Helena, I can see this creates a lot of turmoil for you and I feel you may be referring to my sitch in regards to my S being upset at his mom for giving up.

LW, you're right, your situations was in fact one of the ones I was referring to. Thanks for picking up on that and replying, I appreciate it. It will be the hardest thing I ever do if I end up walking away from this marriage and I would do anything for my kids so it would nearly literally kill me if any of them didn't want to be around me. I don't know how to find out how they would feel about it without basically putting them on notice that it could happen. Which would likely infuriate H. My sister keeps saying "H, you have to talk to your kids!!". But I'm afraid to. Anything I have ever done without H's blessing has only brought much grief. I know I need to learn to let his feelings be his and not take them as gospel of the way I should live my life but that's the way I have done things for my entire adult life. It's hard to just "change".

I understand you are at cross roads, you are struggling between your emotions and your values.

Arsh, very much so. I ask myself all the time if a better person than me would accept these terms and carry on. Perhaps I should have kept my rings on, kept being intimate, kept up the facade. I don't know what a good person would do, but whatever it is, that's what I want to do.

I wish there was an easy solution but the earlier post you had written had clarity in it.

Which one?? I'll go back and read it LOL.

I think a big problem here is that you are listening to what he says and internalizing it.

OneArt, what do you mean exactly when you say "internalizing"?

I bet your kids know far, far more than you think. My kids knew so many things and were keeping it in.

You're probably right, but I don't know how to talk to them about this, I really don't. You mentioned taking them to counseling to work on the family dynamic but there is no way on this earth that H would ever agree to that. He says they deserve for us to fake it like nothing is wrong, he would not approve of me talking to them about this in any way, much less going to counseling.

I'm not trying to tell you to leave him. I'm really not. But I am telling you to stop living this way and to stop living in fear. Your fear is what is holding you back. We have all been there. We all get it. What if your wrong. What if you are all happier. What if he finally gets the damage he is doing. What if he finally appreciates how bad it has become.

What if I'm happier how? If I leave? I get confused because it seems you say you're not telling me to leave him but then you say I might be happier if I do. I guess maybe you're just saying consider leaving?

Your kids hating you is not going to happen. They may be hurt, they may be afraid, but they would adjust.

I do think you're right about this. It's not a logical fear that my kids will hate me. Deep down I know this.

He is a grudge-holder and a score-keeper. When is that going to end?

It seems it will not end. He has told me we are done as a couple.

You said before you would separate to consider saving your marriage. I think you should give that some thought. You think you are saving your marriage by staying, but I told you my example, and please read up on HaWho. See what happened with her.

I consider it every single day. Wonder when the right time is or how and when I'm going to address this with my kids. How much to tell them. How what I tell the Bigs differs from what I tell the Littles. I will look at the thread of the person you mentioned....my H is so different than most people though. He just doesn't tick the same way. That should be pretty clear just by the fact that he is supposedly willing to forego any type of loving relationship and forego and type of sexual relationship and stay in this marriage like it is. I mean, he's saying grandkids, the whole deal. Not like he's planning to leave after the kids graduate....he is saying he can give me everything I want except his heart. And he says I should put my selfishness aside so that we can do what is best for our kids. I have never heard of or met anyone else in my entire life that would rather do that than work together with a partner who genuinely loves them and never meant to hurt them. This is completely foreign to me and I swear to God there is not a single fiber in my being that understands it. I do know what you mean about separating and giving things a chance to heal, but again, my H is not like most people. He would HATE me because he would see it as me taking HIS kids away from him for half the time. He would quite likely never forgive me and told me so. He has put me in a no-win situation and I just don't understand why he's doing it. I wonder all the time if my perception of myself is as jaded as he says it is because someone would have to be a really terrible person in order for me to consider doing to them what H is doing to me and even then I wouldn't do it, I would just leave. I seriously think he has a serious personality issue. Honestly, either he does or I do. Because none of this is "normal".

You are using your children as an excuse, you want what we all want one big happy family where everyone gets along in a loving environment... are you getting that? NO...so work needs to be done. You can work on this alone and you should if H doesnt want to.

I guess I just don't understand what you mean when you say I have so much to look forward to. I have my children's lives to look forward to, their successes and their milestones and children, etc. And yes, I can have pleasant days with new friends, or doing activities, etc. But happiness? In this house with my H? I just can't see it. It's either stay here where my heart will hurt and long forever for something that is no longer or leave and hope it one day heals. I don't see where I'm making excuses, I feel like I'm doing as much as I can do short of filing for custody and leaving the home. But unfortunately happiness isn't something I can see right now. I'm trying to GAL, I've done more in the last couple months just with the few activities I've done than I have in years simply because, if given the choice, I prefer to be with my H and kids as opposed to with strangers learning something new. So if I can't talk them into doing something with me, lol, then I normally wouldn't go. These guys are my people, I never felt like I needed anyone else ya know? Is that weird?

Just so you are aware I do know the race you ran, I am very familiar with this race and all the races that weekend. I belong to two running clubs. So I did see you and your sons time. This site is about anonymity, but I just wanted you to know. If you want I can let you know who I am as well.

I don't really know how to feel about that. Not because you know who I am, that's fine I guess as long as I don't know you in real life, but because you could not possibly have just found me. You had to have looked purposefully to figure it out and I guess I just don't understand why. I've appreciated your contributions to my thread and my situation but to me, part of what makes it ok for me to be here as a married woman who already has trust issues in my marriage, pouring my heart out about things that are very VERY personal, is that no one knows who I am and no one particularly cares.

[OneArt]

Helena:

HaWho's husband lived in the basement. He was gutting it out for the kids. This went on for years and years. He would get a bit better, than disappear again. Finally, one day he walked out of the basement and said he was leaving and has made her life a living hell. He manipulates the kids and violates court orders, he had hidden money and bank accounts too. Was socking it away for years. She didn't save herself or her kids any pain.

I think you are thinking this will go on forever and be tenable at the level it is. I'm trying to tell you that HaWho thought the same. I thought the same. Then bam! I don't recall her H having an OW. He was just the troll in the basement.

They say if you need to go to therapy with someone and they won't go, then you go. Find a really good marriage and family therapist. Don't tell him. Just go. Go when the kids are at school. Go and explain your situation and the dynamic in the home. Ask them to help you find a path to happiness together or a path to happiness apart.

When I say you are internalizing the things he says, I mean you are accepting the merit of them and finding yourself at fault for his accusations. Remember on this site they say believe none of what you hear and half of what you see. Stop listening to his words. They are meaningless.

Do I think you should separate and explore a different kind of life, absolutely. Do I think you have to make that decision for yourself. Absolutely. The consequences are yours and the choice must be yours.

[bhappy2]

Just so you are aware I do know the race you ran, I am very familiar with this race and all the races that weekend. I belong to two running clubs. So I did see you and your sons time. This site is about anonymity, but I just wanted you to know. If you want I can let you know who I am as well.

I don't really know how to feel about that. Not because you know who I am, that's fine I guess as long as I don't know you in real life, but because you could not possibly have just found me. You had to have looked purposefully to figure it out and I guess I just don't understand why. I've appreciated your contributions to my thread and my situation but to me, part of what makes it ok for me to be here as a married woman who already has trust issues in my marriage, pouring my heart out about things that are very VERY personal, is that no one knows who I am and no one particularly cares.

Sorry about this I just know about this race bc the half marathon that goes with it is on my bucket list. You are right that we should not be be able to know who each other are, and be able to post knowing that we are anonymos.

I will take a step back from posting on your thread. I wish you well with your sitch and I hope you find peace.

[LoneWlf]

Helena - hope you are ok ? Please give us an update. I fully understand you wanting to keep anonymous if you need to. Sending you (((hugs))) for comfort. Stay Well !

[HelenaJ]

I fully understand you wanting to keep anonymous if you need to.

I don't really need to stay anonymous anymore than the rest of you do, I just have to be sure no one becomes overly involved in my situation and vice versa. Does that make sense?

They say if you need to go to therapy with someone and they won't go, then you go.

I have seen several counselors. Unfortunately they have all told me the same thing and I wasn't ready to hear it. I know "this is no way to live". Got it.

When I say you are internalizing the things he says, I mean you are accepting the merit of them and finding yourself at fault for his accusations. Remember on this site they say believe none of what you hear and half of what you see. Stop listening to his words. They are meaningless.

Yes, I definitely do this. His truth is my truth, always has been. The state of our relationship depends on how he feels about my actions, some of those are bigger situations than others obviously, but I can pay a "price" simply for buying something for the house without asking his opinion. Then once I ask his opinion, I MUST honor it. Regardless of what my opinion is. Otherwise, I will be ignored or he will "step things up" like, oh ok so this is how we're going to play? And then he'll do something bigger without my approval. It just starts crap. So, when our opinions differ, I've just learned to accept his.

Update~
Lately I've just been thinking about the human's internal response to emotional pain-AVOID. Your ego tells you anything it can to help you avoid pain. I can see this throughout my life-I can look back and see patterns in my life where I will overlook things, not address things, etc. if it makes me uncomfortable or I think it will make the other person uncomfortable, i.e. I think it will end up causing more "pain" than it's worth. Different than picking your battles because I rationalize why the something might be happening and just dismiss my own perspective and my own truth. I'm working more on leaning into the pain, understanding that it is all a part of my life. How I handle difficult times is a very important part of who I am and I need to learn to embrace it because with it comes growth. And change. And I have faith that the path forward becomes clearer eventually if you embrace the present. I am working on quieting my ego and diving deeper into myself so I can see what else is there.

Another thing I've realized is that I've been holding on to anger because on some level I believe that the anger will make it easier to detach, easier to leave when I decide it's time, easier to deal with the pain that's underneath. I think that's why I've found it so difficult to be nice to him, even "cashier" friendly. If I'm too nice, my anger will go away and I will once again be weak. But I'm realizing that anger doesn't make you strong. I mean, it's definitely a necessary part of the process. But I've come to realize that anger is not a true emotion. It's a child's way of dealing with the real emotion. Real strength comes from feeling the true emotions that lie beneath the anger and allowing yourself to be vulnerable to those emotions but not controlled by them, all the while accepting and acknowledging your circumstances.

On a less introspective level, still haven't had much alcohol. I really don't understand why....it's almost like abstaining is happening TO me as opposed to something I've chosen. Maybe it's just a phase, I don't know. All I know is that I used to really enjoy coming home and having a couple glasses of wine. I think over the years it became my coping mechanism for how much my H drank. Since I haven't been, all the negative feelings toward him drinking have been returning.
H's phone has been blowing up with group texts the last couple days from a guy and girl he works with. Bosom buddies they've become it seems. I'm sure they have lots of fun when H is out of town. I say that in the most detached way possible, as I truly am not sure I care. I do a little bit I guess if I'm being completely honest. But not enough to waste much time thinking about. The part of me that cares only cares because I still feel like there is more to this story than I know or understand. More behind his decision to just live in the same house but no longer be a couple. Maybe that is just how my mind is trying to understand his decision simply because it's so far out from anything I would ever decide or anyone I know would ever decide or anyone I've ever met would ever decide. See where I'm going with that? Is H really THAT unique or is there more to the story? That's a rhetorical question, there is no benefit from speculating. None. And I know this. But my brain is definitely craving a way to make sense of it. Ego. Shhhhhhh.

[Davide]

Helena,

Good to hear from you again. Thanks for updating us.

I was really struck by a lot of what you said. Leaning into the pain is so hard, and so unnatural. It is just so much easier to try to block it out, to ignore it, or to otherwise move past it without really facing it head-on. Sometimes, when I am struggling to just get through the day it takes more energy than I have to sit with my pain and examine it.

I'm also right there with you regarding anger/resentment. I have felt a lot of that towards my W recently, and I think you are right that it is a bit of a short-cut that we take in order to detach more easily. It feels to me like it does help. It certainly cut down on the longing and nostalgia. It is part of the grieving process and we can't skip it, but I agree that it isn't a place to malinger. Isn't most of the anger rooted in fear and sadness? I feel like it relates directly back to the first point.

I've also stopped drinking over the past week. I was in a similar routine as you, a couple of glasses of wine in the evening. It was never much, but I can feel myself sleeping better now and with more energy. I don't know if I can keep it up over the weekend, and with the hurricane coming I may be stuck in the house...

[NicoleR]

Helena,

I find your update to be interesting and to hold a lot of truth. I'll try to write more later but I'm just curious since I can't recalls of your earlier posts. Have you ever tried to do 180's like offering your husband compliments, doing favors for him to make him feel special, or just doing things to engage with him differently than before? Not that that'd be wise if he's abusive and trying to stay in the marriage would be unhealthy but I just wonder how 180's have affected the situation or if you've tried them?

[HelenaJ]

Hi Nicole,
Sorry for the delayed response. Our overall daily life was good, no need for 180s really. The issue is that there are very specific instances that I can't change or take back if I wanted to. He blames me for very specific things, not our daily life in general if that makes sense. I have done 180s but mostly from the perspective of having to drop the rope and stop caring so much because, like I said, I can't change these things and his responses will tear me up if I let it. There is one thing in particular that comes to mind that is one of the reasons he gives that we cannot be together as a couple anymore and I would not agree with him on the issue even if it happened tomorrow. About 6 years or so after the OM thing, we went to another state to visit my sister. We went to an early dinner with my sister and her husband at a Mexican restaurant to meet the couple that she stayed with when she first moved there, her and her husband have known them for years but I've never met them. Our kiddos got cranky and needed to go back to the house and I asked if he'd be ok with me staying to visit and have one more drink. He was LIVID with me and said "you promised you'd never go out without me again. Are you seriously doing this right now?" I just could not see his perspective, I still can't. I did not "go out", WE went to dinner and it was still early evening (still light out) and no one else was sitting outside. He's also known both my sister and her husband for as long as he's known me and in that moment I felt like if I let this happen, I would forever be hostage to whatever he deemed as something I would or would not be allowed to do so I stayed. He told me I ruined our vacation and that is one of the things that, in his mind, is the reason we can never be together again. How do you 180 something like that? I made a choice that felt right to ME. And I will pay for it for the rest of my life. That's how things work in my M. Things are great until I disagree. Then he tells me I'm selfish, I think I can do whatever I want, I'm delusional, etc.
It's interesting because I've come to realize that because we think so differently and because of the way he responds when he's angry or upset with me, I do not trust him. I do not trust what he says or even what he does. His reactions, in my opinion, are so over the top that it's been difficult for me to love him with my entire heart. Don't get me wrong-I love him, don't want a divorce and would be mostly happy to keep our family together forever. There are things I can't think about though in order to be with him because I can't reconcile them with love in my mind. And because the issues I've had in the past (his drinking and porn use) are both things he's been willing to let me walk away over, there is a part of my heart I guess that's always been off limits to him. Because he's so judgmental, I've always known that he's not my softest place to fall. He's not my biggest fan. He's not my best friend. I feel like he plays head games with me by ignoring me or acting indifferent or uninterested or using my actions/behaviors as the reason something else happened so it can be my fault. And so I don't trust him but I accepted who he is and loved him anyway and decided that although the things I have problems with in our marriage hurt me deeply they were ultimately not things I was willing to divorce and break up my family over and so I would have to learn to live with it the best I could. The problem is that it wasn't a decision I just made one day or a clear cut path, it was more just a slow acceptance....with a good dose of resentment....and in the course of our R, I haven't always handled our differences in the best way (i.e. my major mistake with OM 15 years ago). On most days, I forgive myself for that. Mostly because I know what was in my heart during that time. I wish with every fiber of my being that I would have handled it differently but I didn't. I was foolish and that is a mistake I will live with. On most days, I have accepted that. As for the rest of whatever my H says are reasons we can't ever be a couple again, it's just BS. Truly. I'm sorry to seem insensitive and call it BS, but what else do you call things that are said OVER AND OVER but aren't TRUE?

Our most recent conversation (over text of course) was that I reached out to him to tell him that when I had brunch the other day with an ex coworker (female) that an hour went by and we were like oh my gosh, we need to go get our food or brunch will be over!! I told him that I couldn't help but think of the night of my company party and how quickly time can go by when you're passionate about your work and given that I was too drunk to be aware of my surroundings that night or notice that my husband WASN'T outside smoking with the other husband like I thought he was....I just wanted him to know that he was making such a mistake to end our M over it. His response was "That is not why." Nothing else. I said well at the end of the day, you made the decision you did and you told me what you wanted me to know about that and if you cared that there might be misunderstandings or things left unresolved, you would certainly be handling things differently. He said "It was not a decision". Nothing else. I said that, again, his lack of concern with the state of things between us and the direction it continues to go is mind boggling. He then said a little more, one of the statements he made was "It was a realization. And everything you have said and done since then has solidified and confirmed it. It's not a bad thing though. It just is what it is. I am not mad or bitter or even regretful." I said "You're not even regretful. Wow. What am I still doing here, I am so stupid." He said "There is nothing to be regretful for. From either of us." Ok you guys. Since when is he saying I have nothing to be regretful for??? WHAT? And how nice of him to arrive at the conclusion that he also has nothing to be regretful for. He's never acknowledged any mistakes in this M and now he's saying conclusively that there is nothing for him to be regretful for, regardless of how I may feel about that.

My marriage is over. I know that although parts of me still try to fight against it. That's mostly why I didn't want to answer your question Nicole, because it's too late for me to think about reconciling or 180s. I know it's done. I know. My struggle now is what to do about it.

[HelenaJ]

One of the things I go back in forth with in my mind is pursuit versus not saying things that, a year from now, I might wish I had said.

[ovrrnbw]

That one more drink situation triggered an emotional memory for him that you weren't prepared for or aware of. All you can do is validate his feelings and do your best to understand why he might feel that way. I actually kind of understand what he was thinking there. It's not the same, but it's obviously still scary to him. He didn't feel safe enough and his fear came out in the form of anger.

how quickly time can go by when you're passionate about your work and given that I was too drunk to be aware of my surroundings that night or notice that my husband WASN'T outside smoking with the other husband like I thought he was....I just wanted him to know that he was making such a mistake to end our M over it. His response was "That is not why."

I think you should not bring this situation up right now, just my opinion. It's something that needs to be dealt with, but probably is going to be so hard to really deal with until he is ready to sit down and talk to you about it.