Need advice on detaching- Part 2

[kiro]

kiro, I really think you need to slow down and just coast for a while. You sound successful at work, likely because you are decisive and get things done. But that doesn't translate to these sorts of things. Patience. Waiting things out. Taking it slow. You were right to tell her that you are weren't ready to for mediation. The problem is that lots of LBHs feel the need to do SOMETHING. Anything. It is the delusion of action (others coined that, not me). But action for action sake isn't necessarily what you should be doing..

I don't feel the need to do something. Or maybe I do I don't know... Well, I have to take on more responsibility (with kids, house, finances, etc.) because she left. I have to readjust my spending habits because I now live on 1 salary (although my salary represents 90% of our previous family income). I have to deal with my emotional ups and downs and be strong. I have to change my social life because many of our outings were for couples. I have to know my rights for a possible D. I need to do 180s. I need to GAL. Etc.

Although I understand what you mean, all these things necessitate action. They won't get done by themselves. And the fact that I am emotionally tired and lonely, means that the effort to do these things is doubled.

I would suggest just coasting. Your post hits on A LOT of big topics. Dating, detachings, DBing (which detaching is part of). Please kiro do not confuse DBing with only being for trying to avoid D, or move to R. DBing is about getting yourself in the best mental frame of mind to move forward whether that is D or R. DBing is about improving yourself to the point that you are ready for your new R, whether that is with your W or someone else. DBing is about being the best you that you can be for everyone involved (STBXW, kids, extended family, friends, etc......)

So don't think that if you are considering giving up on your M that you shouldn't be DBing. Not at all. You should keep GAL, 180ing, detaching and improving yourself no matter if you want R or D!!

Agreed. I usually use the term DBing to mean hoping for a reconciliation. I am aware that I need to continue working on all these other fronts (180s, GAL, etc.).

Not sure why you care about an EA or PA if you really have continued to detach and if you are on the verge of giving up why does it matter?

Let me put it this way. I won't know exactly how I feel about it until I know for sure. It is possible that I will decide to file for D myself when I find out. Also, where I live, we can't file for D until 1 of 2 conditions are met: either we have been separated for 12 months or someone committed adultery.

Maybe it's not rational, but sometimes when I have anger/resentment feelings, I can't stop my mind from thinking about this. It's the thought that she might be having a good time with someone else while the kids and I are struggling to make sense of what just happened to us...

Also, I want to know because I may need to protect my kids if they find out.

Finally, I wonder if that would be a relevant data point to bring up if/when we start mediation for divorce papers.

The best part about your post was where you talked about talking to a lawyer to see what your rights are. You need to do this. Based on your sitch there is a good chance you will go through the D. (Note, that doesn't mean there is no hope for R with your W, just that D might be a step in that process.) And you need to make sure you are legally covered. So many posters here talk about not being able to afford a L, but the reality is that you can't afford to NOT have a L.

Good you agree on one thing I said :))

Based on what you told us, the way she disappeared on Tuesday I would NOT push her to take the kids 50% of the time. Your kids are to the age where they will be able to choose for themselves who they want to be with. My suggestion (and this is where the improving yourself for all those that are left behind in these sitches) would be to be the best dad you can be! Make that decision a no-brainer for your kids. She has set a precedent by abandoning them. Set a precedent by being the father only a fool would want to leave!

Agreed

[sandi2]

Anyway, I thought this was totally irresponsible and so I called her and left her a voice message (she never answers my calls and rarely answers her kids calls) saying something like "I can't believe what you are doing, leaving the kids alone after not seeing them for over a month. This is totally unacceptable and irresponsible. The kids are a red-line and I will not allow that. Please be responsible and take care of your kids."

You will not allow it? Unless you have something legally to back you up, be careful of the words you use.

You have no authority to tell her what she can or can't do. The two of you are physically separated. If there is something legal in writing about her not leaving the kids alone, then you can take her to court or whatever.......which gets expensive if you take her every time she shows bad parenting, but that's your choice.

What I see is you trying to shame her. It's not your job. You can't shame her into being a good mother. She doesn't have to live her life according to your values.

With that said, I am not blaming you for being upset. It is a bad situation when a parent is wayward. I'm just trying to caution you about how you address some of these issues.

[kiro]

Actually, I don't think I said "I will not allow it". I was going by memory, but I did say that the kids are "a red line".

What I may do is find some other way for the kids when I am away on business. One of my boys is 17, so he can stay alone anyway. The other is 13. He could stay with his brother, but I wouldn't feel very comfortable.

The kids already asked me if they could just stay home while I'm away instead of going to their mom. This is really kind of what I was thinking when I wrote "I would not allow it". So far, I have been the one trying to get her to see the kids because I thought the kids needed to see their mom. And I had been asking the kids from time to time to check on her as well to make sure she's Ok to teach them to be good sons. I may just stop encouraging this and just focus on taking care of them.

[kiro]

What I see is you trying to shame her. It's not your job. You can't shame her into being a good mother. She doesn't have to live her life according to your values.

Sandi, this is your opinion, but I don't agree with you. I am doing what I think is best for my children. You seem to be saying that "being a good mother" is something relative to one's values. I don't agree with that. If we are debating whether "being a good mother" is right or wrong, then we're not going to get anywhere.

If she feels shame in what I told her because I asked her to take care of her kids and spend time with them after not seeing them for over a month, then that's her problem. I only asked her to do what I think is right for the kids.

[kiro]

She doesn't have to live her life according to your values.

To be honest, this type of comments upset me because this way of thinking is what puts our society where it is now. This over-liberal thinking. Everyone is free to do what they want regardless of anyone else. Freedom and liberty seem to be the only left values in our society.

Of course, no one is forced to live according to anyone else's values because of individual freedom, but this doesn't mean that moral values should be erased from our society. Everyone has free will to act how they want, but I (and the society) can label it as wrong morally. You can call it shame if you want.

[EricC]

Kiro,

I completely agree with what Steve and Sandi said above. Actually, before reading Sandi's post, I was going to say something in the same lines.

First, you do need to take more responsibilities in your household due to your wife's leaving. You want to give your kids the best you can give them (whatever that is). Your kids should be your primary focus. A big part of DBing is making sure your family (yourself included) are taken care of as much as possible. The yourself part is the GAL part. Just like you need to take care of your kids, you need to take care of you, regardless where this situation ends up. So, the choice is not between detaching and DBing or between DBing and fighting for your marriage.

DBing is about surrendering control of your marriage. Respecting the fact that your W is and independent person entitled to make her choices, even if you disagree, even if you think they are harmful (more about that later). DBing is also about you being an independent person making your choices that is capable of living a fulfilling life with or without her.

Myself, I got to a situation where (we had been living nominally together for a while back then) I was ready to pack my things and go or let my W go on a 24 hours notice. I had my life (at least the basics) figured out. I had a plan where I would want to live, what I wanted to do, how I would spend my time with my kids etc. It never got there, but it gave me the peace of mind and confidence to live my life as I saw fit. It allowed me not to pay attention to the things my W did when I disagreed with them.

DBing is not hoping for reconciliation. DBing is simply being ready when it happens, and also being ready when it does not happen. Hoping for reconciliation is IMO the opposite of detaching. It would be much easier for you if your mindset is something in these lines: "We will be better off if we R, but I am perfectly fine if we do not. If she wants to R, I would be open to work on it given the right circumstances, if we find out we still want the same things".

Second, why do you want to know if your W had an affair? Think very seriously what you hope to accomplish with acquiring that knowledge? IMO, you will only get hurt. You want your W to come back and commit to your R, not look for excuses what she had done. From what I had already read, she would need awful lot of excuses for what you already know. IMO, if she ever wants to come back to you, you need to discuss what happened this time, and how you will avoid it from happening again. If she does not want to come back to you, what she has done should be left to her own conscience. Simply forgive her and move on.

Knowing she had an affair will simply turn you into a victim in your own eyes, and you will need redemption. Do your kids really need to go through that too? It is much better that you forgive her and focus on either R or moving on.

Third, I think what Sandi is saying here is that your W rejects your judgement and your opinion. She left because she currently wants to be independent and make her own decision. She did not ask you whether to move out, right? So, what do you think you will accomplish by telling her what to do and what not to do? Most likely, you will only justify her decision in her own head.

You can judge her. I certainly do judge her (and I do not know her) just reading your posts. But your judgement should stay for you only. You cannot judge her in front of her, her friends, relatives, and certainly in front of the kids.

Nobody here denies that not spending time with one's kids is bad parenting. However, you need to understand and respect that you do not know how she sees things, what she is going through now. She denied you that right. She may be seeing things in different perspective. Maybe she needs to go through something (therapy, MLC ...) before she could feel she can be a good mother. Maybe, that is how she internally justifies her behavior. I honestly, cannot think what may be more important than spending an afternoon with your kids after you have not seen them for weeks, but that is not the point. The point is she denied you the right to control that. She claims to be the only person to make that decision, and you need to respect that.

That does not mean that you cannot tell her in a non-judgmental non-confrontation non-controlling way that she needs to spend more time with your sons. If you want to send the message, you can doing by saying that "our sons will be very happy if you spend time with them today / take them to dinner" or "they miss you" . You can try such friendly / positive suggestions and see if she would be willing to respond.

Of course, if you need to protect / defend your sons, you can do that. If she harms them one way or another, you need to do something about it. But this would be a unilateral action. You will not find her cooperation by shaming her. That is what Sandi probably meant.

Hope this helps.

[SteveLW]

She doesn't have to live her life according to your values.

To be honest, this type of comments upset me because this way of thinking is what puts our society where it is now. This over-liberal thinking. Everyone is free to do what they want regardless of anyone else. Freedom and liberty seem to be the only left values in our society.

Of course, no one is forced to live according to anyone else's values because of individual freedom, but this doesn't mean that moral values should be erased from our society. Everyone has free will to act how they want, but I (and the society) can label it as wrong morally. You can call it shame if you want.

I don't think sandi was saying what you are insinuating here. Remember, sandi is a former WW. She knows how they think. She was pointing out that WWs are selfish and they don't care what your values are. They don't even care what their previous values were. You will be frustrated if you think about her behavior in those terms. Worse, you will get NO WHERE by calling her out on it. She doesn't care. She only cares about trying to be happy.

[kiro]

Thanks Steve, Sandi, and Eric

I am sorry if I misunderstood. I hope I didn't offend anyone. But I did get a little offended myself and was seriously considering quitting this forum altogether because what I am looking for is support. What I am going through is tough and is a process. It takes time and I need to go through the different stages before reaching total acceptance and peace. I can't skip a stage and get to acceptance right away. Sometimes, I have to accept my feelings of anger and resentment. This forum is a place where I want to feel safe expressing what I am going through and where I am at any point in time. I am working hard and doing my best. Sometimes I take a step forward, only to find myself taking 2 steps backward.

I am by nature a rational and logical person, and as Eric pointed out, I am quite successful at my work partially because of that. I am saying this because I think I understand relatively well what needs to be done from a theoretical level. But this doesn't mean that I can apply it all at once. I need to follow the process at my own rate.

If I go back to what I told my wife, I wasn't trying to blame her or judge her. I have dealt relatively well in that area for the past 12 months. I don't shame her. I don't try to make her feel guilty. I let her do what she wants. I listen to her when she wanted to talk. And I encourage her in her career, studies, etc. What I wanted to achieve is protect my kids and make sure she takes good care of them while I was away. Did I say exactly the right thing? Maybe not, but that was my objective: Protect my kids. Not shame her or blame her. What she does is her own business as long as it doesn't harm my kids or me.

[sandi2]

I apologize if my post offended you. I forgot you are still relatively new here, and I should have explained better.

I don't shame her. I don't try to make her feel guilty. I let her do what she wants.

Okay, that's good. All I had were the words you said, and I wanted to point out that those choice of words sounded otherwise. FWIW, I'm sure most everyone can empathize with your emotions.

I would like to support you, if I can. I am not an over thinking liberal by any stretch of the imagination. And, just for the record.....you did not offend me.

Most everyone here has probably learned something in their experiences that might save another person from making the same mistake. By sharing, we learn from each other. If you don't agree or don't like what someone says to you.....I hope you will at least ask for clarification before you decide to leave the board. In the meantime, I hope you will post often.

[SteveLW]

kiro, please do not think frank talk and directly telling you when you did something counter to what you should be doing as "not supporting" you. Our support is to encourage, but also to make sure you know when you do things to hurt your chances.

Remember, the people taking the time out of their day to post here are not here for any other reason than to try and help you. Always remember that. Even the tough, frank talk comes from a place of wanting to help. When you pursue and apply pressure, and we tell you that is what you are doing, it is because we want you to be successful, that's all.

Remember, support isn't just "Good job! Way to go!" There are no participation trophies in dealing with marital problems. Some of the best support is to hear what you are doing wrong so that you can 180 on it. Everyone that posts here want nothing more than for Kiro to be posting here in a year, well into piecing and R, and giving sound, direct and sometimes tough advice to others.

When it comes to sandi, you can't ask for a better person to help you in your sitch. So take what she says to heart, ESPECIALLY when she is telling you something that is difficult to hear. Remember, she was once where your W is now. Her insight is invaluable............