Sorry I have been away for awhile, but have been wallowing in deep depression as of late. Obviously nothing has really changed in my life, still no intimacy, same old story. Nuff said.
I have been reading many posts trying to gain an insight into what my H as the LD patner is thinking, and I must thank all of you LD people for helping me understand why he responds the way that he does. Your insights are helpful and enlightening but does not change my situation. I wish that there was a magic button I could push to get him to open up and enjoy intimacy together. After all these years, it probably will never happen.
I have noticed several curious ties that wind through many of the posts. One is that we HD people all wither and die inside when our LD partners do not, cannot, or will not share themselves with us HD folks. The tender and creative ways people have tried to woo their unwilling partners is absolutely outstanding, but seems as if most of us have tried every method out there to no avail. And we suffer in agony with rejection and bitterness. Small wonder.
Some of the men seen to think that all women do not want or enjoy the pleasures of the boudoir. Au contrair my misguided friends. Some women have needs and desires as strong, or stronger than the average man. And we suffer just as intently or more so from our partners rejecting us as you men do. Please try to remember that there are HD ladies out here that are in abject hell because of societal pressures on us that contradict our HD desires. We can only be sexy for our H only or we are sluts, sex before marrige is taboo for a woman, you get my drift about the societal pressure stuff.
One more thing that is bothering me is that for people who admit to thinking about having an affair, or are actually having an affair, they get not so gently bashed for trying to have some of their needs met. I realize that for the most part, an affair can really make a messy situation a disaster. But in certain instances it might be able to releave some of the anxiety and rejection that we starving people are suffering from. Please don't be so quick to judge those of us that have "strayed." As I have stated before, my H broke our marriage vows by avoiding the "cherish" part. And I have tried for so long to turn this around, that if and when I do have an affair, I know deep in my heart that I have not cheated on him. His lack of attention forced me to look elsewhere.
I, too, have read many threads trying to understand why low-desire people are that way. I think most of it is simply how they were born. After reading SSM and discussing it with my wife, our sex life is much better. But it is definitely a gift of love she is giving me, and not so much a personal need she is fulfilling.
When I had the affair, there was no love, other than the shared love of sex. And to be honest, I don't think I have ever experienced more enjoyable or deeply satisfying sex than when my partner was starved for sex and devoured me like a hungry lioness.
But I could see that it didn't really have a future, especially with three children and a wife of twenty years whose happiness I was jeopardizing. And I really cannot complain much about the sex in my marriage lately. Sure, it could be better, but in a way that leaves something more to look forward to.
But in all honesty, I do not have the patience that so many of you all have exhibited. If my choices were: 1. have no sex, 2. get divorced, or 3. cheat; then I would choose the lesser of three evils -- cheat! Fortunately for my family, the ideas in Michele's book have been working.
Can I ask you both a question just because I'd like to try and understand, not because I'm being judgemental?
Why would you have an affair rather than just divorcing?
I ask because these are my perceptions:
1) You would cheat because you are so starved for sexual intimacy, you become desperate.
But, in order to achieve true intimacy, there must be an equal balance of trust, emotional and physical communication. Most affairs provide the immediate fix for the sex starvation, but lack the longevity that cultivates true trust and emotional bonds. So the act of the affair at some point becomes empty itself, or becomes a double-edge sword because once committed, you then fear being caught.
Which brings me to:
2) If you are caught, you've introduced into your marriage a violation of trust so deep it may never be repaired...you've sacrificed the foundation upon which emotional and physical intimacy is created. And you have a better than average chance of ending up in divorce court anyway. So how would this further you along your goal of being more intimate with your spouse?
If your spouse does come around and you start having more sex, has the affair been successful in achieving your goals, or have you just been successful in emotionally blackmailing your partner?
Now be aware that I fully understand that when one spouse cheats, both marriage partners are equally responsible for the wandering spouse...something had to be wrong for the spouse to wander, or they'd never wander.
It just seems to be an incredibly risky option, one fraught with so many pitfalls that the potential pay-off seems highly unlikely.
At our worst time, I understood that my lack of response to my H could drive him to have an affair. I understood his need. I didn't think it was fair that he had to do without while I was getting what I thought I wanted. But I was completely stumped as to how we were both going to get what we wanted and needed. At least not until I read the book.(It's not to say we still don't struggle, either).
Seems to me that there are two choices when a couple faces the SSM. Do something about the problem or get out. Both seemingly simple answers are in and of themselves extremely complex and take an enormous amount of energy.
These are just my perceptions. I'd like to know yours so I can understand better.
Divorce has it's own set of problems that are difficult to resolve and find peace with. Believe me, I have thought long and hard about persuing a divorce, but have decided that would be not be an option at this point. The level of satisfaction with a relationship is more complicated than the sexual gratification aspect. Over a long period of time, we have built a nice life together, with the exception of our complete lack of sex. I have been supportive, understanding, and have tried to help him see how damaging his lack in sexual interest in his wife is to this marriage. He cannot see that is the crux of the problem. He may not be able to change his frigidity, but I still have needs and desires that he is not willing to address. I have been trying to help him understand that I am willing to help him overcome his fear of intimacy, but after all of these years of trying with no success, I am running out of ideas. I have told him numerous times over the years that he is pushing me into the arms of another man, but he has not made any attempts to change his behavior or stop me. I have asked him point blank how would he feel if I did have an affair. His only response is that he is afraid the I would not love him anymore. And nothing has changed.
He has broken our vows by not fulfilling our entire relationship. I have tried to help him change, and I still am at square one. He is not malicious in withholding affection, he really does love me, but as a roommate, a mother figure, not a wife. That is not what I bargained for when I said "I do." Should we go to counseling? That might help if he were willing to go. Have suggested it numerous times, too. In his mind, all therapists speak, and I quote him here, "psychobabble." So when he finally goes to therapy, he will probably not listen to what they may have to say. I have always been willing to go to a third party to try to find out why he is so emotionally closed, but he has stalled and delayed many, many times. He does not want to find out himself. It might be too painful for him. I am in pain, too, but he does not understand why, even after long conversations. I deserve to be needed, wanted, desired and touched. Perhaps I should resign myself that even though legally I am married, I have a room mate for a husband. That is difficult to accept and that is not what I want. I would like to change that, but it takes both of us that want to change to make that happen. I cannot make the changes all by myself.
Will an affair help our marriage? Probably not, but it might help me cope better. He has been warned that I am at the point of looking for sexual gratification elsewhere. I have trusted him to try to change himself, but he has not, so he has broken my trust that the situation will change. Yes, I have begged, pleaded, cried, yelled and screamed at him, too, but nothing has changed.
He has emotionally blackmailed me without understanding why he is a non-sexual being and is perfectly happy with continuing our marriage as status quo. I need a sexual outlet once in awhile, pure and simple. We may have more baggage if I do have an affair but he has been warned that this is a possibility due to his inaction and obviously is willing to take that risk. I grew up in the '70's so understand the concept that sex does not always have to have emotions to be fufilling. Would be nice, but not an option at this point, either.
I sound rather defeated and hopeless today, don't I? I am still in the black hole of depression and should go to the doctor for anti depressants. Drugs might help me cope, but sex is another form of drug, look at all of the chemicals that our bodies produce when we are sexual beings. God, I am almost maudlin with this post.. Desperate, you bet. Tired of begging, most decidedly so. He has finally made an appointment to see a therapist, so I am waiting to see if anything will change. How much longer can I hold on? Dunno.
Wow, you sound like my husband just a few short months ago. All I can say is that I think, as a woman and as an LDer, all of your pain, all of your frustrations, are valid. But you probably don't need my validation.
In absence of any other course, because it sounds like you have tried them all, I'd get yourself into counseling whether he decides to go or not. You will most definately benefit. I'd try that before I'd try the anti-depressants.
I've been through counseling, some with my husband, most without him, and you can bring about enormous change just by going by yourself. When you change yourself, your spouse has to change. He has no choice because you are no longer the same person. ('Least, that's what my shrink told me, and darned if he wasn't right, in my opinion).
I think, if nothing else, your situation right now is predictable...and predictability brings a certain level of comfort for some people. Things may be crazy, volital, or passionless...but they are predictable. If you change...things are no longer predictable.
Don't wait for him to go. More than likely, he's going to come up with some excuse not to go. He may not. But if he doesn't end up going, your head is going to spin off your shoulders. So don't wait for him. Call tomorrow and set up your own appointment. You've waited on him long enough.
At the very least, counseling is going to help you build back up the self-esteem that has been damaged by your husband's inattentiveness. In absence of your husband willing to change, that is the very best advice I can give you.
I totally agree that divorce is not really an option. As I have said in a previous message, if you do the math you will find that a very, very active sex life will consume about 2% of your life. The marriage also includes conversation, meals, quiet time together, sleeping together, planning the future, taking care of shared responsibilities, and on and on.
During all of the non-sexual time (the vast majority), we are very happy and loving. It hardly makes sense to split up over 2% of the marriage, especially when it has so little importance for one of the partners.
But what does have importance, hopefully, is my well-being and happiness. There are very sexual marriages, for example, where one partner is paralyzed and has no sensation below the waist. Yet satisfying sex is still very possible. We are a healthy and loving couple, and should be having sex as much as either partner wants. Why the heck not?? I know that I would always find a way to give my wife sexual pleasure, regardless of how tired, stressed-out, or limp I was. If she wants it, she is going to get it; I just don't envision myself turning down the request.
Things are better now, but for a while my wife would get angry if I approached her for sex more than once a week. And three out of four requests would still get turned down. I sometimes wonder if somewhere in her genetic code, she was just waiting for the subliminal scent of another woman before finally cranking up her drive. And no offense intended, but I wonder what subtle biological cues might have helped you, Corri, to get more interested. As I recall, your husband was getting very restless about the time you discovered the SSM. I sincerely believe there is a lot of unconscious genetic programming that controls our desires, that we are completely unaware of. It's a theory, anyway.
Quote: I totally agree that divorce is not really an option. As I have said in a previous message, if you do the math you will find that a very, very active sex life will consume about 2% of your life. The marriage also includes conversation, meals, quiet time together, sleeping together, planning the future, taking care of shared responsibilities, and on and on.
If you are venturing into the world of percentages and statistics, this particular one is very misleading. Because if, as you say, a very active sex life will only consume 2% of your life, the devastation that will be brought about from an affair coming to light seems like an awful lot to gamble on for 2% of your life.
The weighted importance that you give to that 2% of consumed life, however, is the crux of the situation. And that weight of importance skews the number...kind of like the humidity level skews the actual temperature. So really, at least from your standpoint, 2% is an inaccurate number, and you have to throw your argument out the door. Or, you need to give more credence and weight to the other things that get thrown into the pot to make a good marriage and keep that 2% in realistic perspective.
As for the genetic antennas going up, she probably did pick up on something changing...and because her climate had changed, she had to change. She had no choice. You introduced something different. But what you introduced could have been anything. Your attention was diverted. But it didn't necessarily have to be an affair diverting you. And that's my whole point in my "Food for Thought" thread.
My situation is a bit different from yours...could he have been contemplating an affair, or even having one? Sure. But I also have to say that I have been actively pursuing an answer to our dilemma for some time...I WANTED to change...for myself, and for him as well. But I can tell you right now that if I found out that he was having an affair, all the books in the world wouldn't save our marriage.
If, in fact, this works for you, who the hell am I to judge? For me, affairs are too destructive, too steeped in lies, too emotionally blackmailing to be an honest attempt at bringing about change. I think they are a co-op for those who do not want to make tough choices or who do not want to do the hard work necessary for bringing about personal change, no matter how long it takes.
Now before you go getting pissed at me, I realize that what I have said is very strong and very narrow. Not narrow-minded, necessarily, just 'narrow.' I've come to those conclusions based on my own experiences, my own contemplations, and one 'near miss.' My narrow statement is NOT based on what you are doing or have decided to do in your situation. There are many paths to the same destination...I just haven't seen this particular path work for anyone...hence, my question to you and Johanna.
I hope you can forgive my harshness...it is my own opinion and worth just about that.
I noticed that you also said something about your happiness and well-being hopefully being important.
Do you see your spouse being responsible for your happiness and well-being? If 98% of your marriage is good, do you see her purposely withholding 2% just so you can't be 100% happy?
Quote: We are a healthy and loving couple, and should be having sex as much as either partner wants.
Should be? According to whom? Where did you get this book of "Should Be's?" I want to know who wrote that book. What about the book of "What is?" I think someone once told me that "should be" is a direct translation for "I want."
My kid once told me he thought he "should be" the best kid on his hockey team. Why's that? I asked him. Because there's no reason why I shouldn't be, he said to me.
Well then, I said to him, you should best be getting your butt in gear and hustling up and down that ice because you sure as heck don't get to 'best' by standing still on your skates.
I think that you missed my point about having an affair and I would like to explain myself. The affair that I have in mind is not the romantic, lovestruck idea that you might be thinking of. What I want is being able to drink in the sexual passion of another person, repeatedly, strings not attached. Being able to enjoy pleasures of the flesh with an unrestrained partner that understands the importance of passion. You may think that this type of relationship is unattainable and very shallow. Believe what you will, but that is what I want and I know that it is out there for me. A F*** Friend. Have had many of them in the past, I just want some of my physical needs met for a change. Emotion is not on the radar screen for me with this situation. I do not want emotion, I want physical, fleshly delights. That is it.
I'm tired of twice a year if I am lucky with a very inhibited H who is intimidated by a passionate woman. That is not fufilling, either. I can guarantee you that whenever I would hint that it might be a good time for a "special encounter," my H would do everything posible to avoid me that evening. He would stay up late, go to bed early, or get drunk, or find some way to ignore my suggestions. Boy, the mood was pretty much dead by the end of the evening and so were my prospects of snuggling with the hubby. I rarely pressured him for sex, but once in awhile, say every couple of months, I did. I will not initiate any more because it only makes my situation worse and I am tired of begging. I ask, he withdraws from me.
If I would tell him that I like this touch, or caress me like that, try this instead, any suggestion that I would make would be ignored, forgotten and never used again. Frustrating, demoralizing and ego busting.
You have suggested that I go to counseling. I know that I have lots of anger and other issues, so counseling is a good idea. But, and this may sound petty, since I have been the person in this relationship trying to change things, I feel that he needs to go first and then we will see. I will go but I have told him that he needs to work on his intimacy avoidance first. He is scared that he will "fail." When I asked him of his definition of failure, his response was that that he would not be able to meet the expections of the counselor and talk about what his issues are. That is a valid fear that he has since he is a very closed person. He is afraid to lose me but cannot verbailze why. That is hard for a verbal person like myself to understand why he cannot explain himself.
I have been reading some of your other posts and have noticed that you wanted to make a change in your relationship. What changed for you? I would be thrilled if my H wanted to change and become a true husband to me, not the roommate that he has been.
Thanks for making me think. Posting is a type of therapy for me, but sometimes I just sit here and cry as I type.
Sorry to hear that things haven't improved for you.
I wish I had some magic words, but alas, I still struggle with my relationship.
Quote; ----------- I'm tired of twice a year if I am lucky with a very inhibited H who is intimidated by a passionate woman. -----------
I was curious. How intimidated is your husband in everyday non-sexual issues?
In my relationship, my wife's self-image was/is a large portion of the problem. I have no idea how to fix it, and I have been trying for decades to do so, but to little avail.
Is it possible that he needs to do/be something positive? Does he find any satisfaction in his job or hobbies?
It just sounded like he might be suffering from some type of performance anxiety. This is all just a guess and probably wrong. You might want to try buying him a 'crutch' so to speak. You can buy a few viagra online and let him try one, "for fun". It isn't that he needs it, but it may be the insurance he needs to feel like he can perform, no matter what or how passionate you become.
Just $0.02 worth of opinion, and you get what you pay for :-)
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Quoting Corri:But I can tell you right now that if I found out that he was having an affair, all the books in the world wouldn't save our marriage.
It is ironic that my wife used to be very suspicious of me, years ago when I had no thought or desire for any woman but her. She told me many times that if she ever caught me cheating, the marriage would be instantly over. Well, I frankly do not believe it. Besides, fear should never be the reason for a spouse to stay faithful.
Quoting Corri:I noticed that you also said something about your happiness and well-being hopefully being important.
Do you see your spouse being responsible for your happiness and well-being? If 98% of your marriage is good, do you see her purposely withholding 2% just so you can't be 100% happy?
Good question, but the answer is no. But I do expect my wife to care about my well-being and happiness. I think any spouse in a healthy marriage cares about the other.
Quoting Corri:I think someone once told me that "should be" is a direct translation for "I want."
Exactly. I want to be able have sex with my wife whenever the mood strikes me. In other words, that is my fantasy, I don't expect it to come true. And I am not going to go cheat on her if I don't get what I want. But as many other HD people have said, sex is a physical need. When I was stuck with self-gratification for months on end, I simply made other plans.
After reading SSM, my wife told me that one of the biggest turn-offs for her are my unrealistic expectations, and my desire to analyze what is wrong. She felt she could never be the woman I wanted her to be. I really just wanted her to enjoy being sexual. It is classic irony that my actions had the exact opposite of their intended effect.
Quoting Corri:I "should" probably shut up now.
Please don't, as I am finding your perspective to be very valuable. You're telling me the same things my wife is telling me, but I hear better when more than one person is talking.
