New to this, so Ima just throw it all out there: Married for 20 years, two kids, 17 and 18, both with special needs (1 Tourettes, 1 OCD with some mild LD). Health problems fairly early in marriage limited my ability to be intimate as much as W wanted, I pushed her away some to spare myself my own feelings of inadequacy, etc. I also was not the best at assisting with home upkeep, much of the childrearing, etc. Basically I just eventually kind of shut down and "went to sleep." My health problems were resolved beginning approx 8 years ago, but by then damage already done. We had already started the drift apart, lack of intimacy had made us more cross with each other, neither of us respected others' view on things, etc. She felt and still feels disrespected by kids and feels I contributed to that (which I probably did) by not supporting her enough. BUT: Big problem is the lack of intimacy. W is a VERY sexual being, more than I ever knew for sure, though I did know she was a bit like that, but she is also conflicted due to Catholic upbringing and church's views on sex, birth control, etc. The "NFP" birth control endorsed by the Church and which we committed to was actually probably a contributing factor, particularly since I was "scared" of any additional children due to my health, and since we weren't "pristine" with the timing and measurement principles of the protocol. In a nutshell, we just ended up not making love nearly enough, and certainly not as much as she would have wanted. Other intimacy (touching, handholding, hugging, even the kiss going out the door in the AM) eventually vanished. And then, so did even the rote "I love you"s. My ring disappeared during a period of home renovation/cleaning over two years ago, and she stopped wearing hers about 6 months later. Over the last probably 6-7 years she has come to me directly wanting to talk about the lack of intimacy (not just sex) and also the other problems as well, probably 3-4 times, most recently in early January, each time to some extent in tears. Each time I have to some extent tried to turn it back on her, blaming "the way she talked to me" or "to the kids" which could be mean-spirited but, honestly, probably had its genesis in the way she was being treated by me, and, most recently, I just didn't know what to do-- I was starting to come to the realization (finally) that we were really in trouble, and had started to suspect an affair might be ongoing since late November. Exactly three weeks ago today, I discovered she was having an affair with one of my best friends-- someone to whom I had gone for help with the relationship, and who took advantage of that information and my wife's vulnerability to make his move. The affair was not, at that time, physical (I overheard a phone conversation and my wife and I discussed it and I am confident that, at least at that time, it was not.) She also told me she had not slept with anyone since before we were dating/engaged, and I believe her. However, there are clearly feelings there based on what I overheard. (though she did not say she loved him). This affair has been going on, near as I can figure, since late November. We have not discussed it in great detail, just that "I went to ________ because I needed someone I could talk to. He makes me laugh and makes me feel wanted and desired and sexy. He's been there for me. It has only been flirtation, sometimes heavy, so far. I like him, he's a 'friend'". But, from their conversation, it was clear it was a bit more than that and that it was heading towards consummation-- they were discussing hiding and deleting emails and pictures they had sent, and how long it would be before they could be "seen in public together" if they "ever got together."
Current status is that we are talking, almost daily, though not in couples therapy. I discovered, rather suddenly, that I had buried my feelings deeply and still very much love her (VERY much-- it hurts terribly) and am now dealing with the guilt of having neglected her and pushed her away for so long, particularly since she remained faithful to me for all those years despite her sexual nature (and, yes, I am very confident of this.) She says she cares for me but does "not love me" and doesn't know if she can ever see herself wanting a romantic or intimate relationship with me again, but that she DOES know she wants and even needs to feel "sexy and wanted and desired", which this ex-friend of mine (who is definitely a bit of a womanizer) has done for her. He had been texting multiple times a day and sending her all sorts of flowers and little gifts. Contact with the OM has not stopped. He continues to text her fairly regularly (almost daily) even as he knows I know what is going on. She has responded on a handful of occasions (I see the cellphone records in the bill) and, this past Saturday, went with a girlfriend to a bar where she knew he was almost certain to be. To her credit, when I called her to see when she would be getting home (she had initially indicated she would be home somewhat sooner), she told me where she was (though not WON the OM was there, which I assume he almost certainly was) and I thanked her for being honest and told her "in the spirit of honesty on my part, you know I'd rather you not be there" and then said "whatever, I'll see you when you get back" and hung up. She did come home, almost immediately, and we talked and I apologized for being controlling. She remains fairly steadfast that "she doesn't know if she can see us ever getting back to being a romantic couple", and had previously said she is not sure she was ever truly "in love with me" (which is definitely revisionist on her part) and couldn't even remember any of our happy memories, BUT, in the past few days she has, on her own, recalled a couple.
My main problem is is that I feel like I am sort of in limbo in terms of how I should be proceeding. Am I in "repair" mode-- be nice, caring, loving, supportive, etc., OR am I in or near "Last Resort" mode where I want to play it very cool and cut contact? I think I am honestly somewhere in between. I DEFINITELY want to work on the relationship and hope in my deepest of hopes that we can reconcile. She, while having stepped back a half step from the brink of walking out, says she is conflicted and confused, but still feels a bit like she is trapped and not making any progress. Problem is, she does not want to commit to working on the relationship. I am sure the continued contact with the OM is not helping her clarity. Additionally, her best friend (my best friend's wife) is in the process of separating, is probably a support for her on the "separate" side of the ledger, and oh-by-the-way turns out to know (friends of friends) the OM, which she did not discover until about the time the affair was kicking off, and who now likes to hang out at that same bar (and invite my wife to do so). Based on fairly good intel, I don't think my wife's friend is actively encouraging her to carry on the affair-- I think she just really likes this bar and lieks hanging out with her new friends and wants my wife (her best friend) to be there too. As for my wife's attitude towards me, it ranges from friendly, joking, even lightly flirtatious (with some confusing and even small suggestive signals-- totally inconsistent with everything she has said verbally--thrown in). We have been out socially 2 or three times and both enjoyed it, though she says she is not certain if it is just like a friendship thing or something more. She also has periods where she "pulls back" and is colder or cries a lot, and my sense is that these are days where the OM has somehow muddied the waters by contacting her. Pretty sure he sent her flowers and some earrings last week. For my part, I have been complimentary, extremely helpful around the house, and have become energized, committing myself to taking care of myself better (not like I am a slob, I am actually a fairly attractive, athletically built, though on the slim side, man, and my health has returned to it's pre-sickness quality.) My leadership has even gotten the kids to treat her with more love and respect, all of which she has noticed. But... still in limbo.
Working with one of the coaches, and my goal for this week was have her initiate some sort of physical touch (which she has been reluctant to do for fear of "giving me the wrong idea.") I was also to initiate touches of my own where I felt comfortable doing so and where it wasn't too aggressive/forward. Finally, cooling it on the R talk as much as possible unless she initiated (since it seems to go better when she does so). Been doing most of that, but no luck. She had warmed up to me a bit in week two, clearly "leaning in to me" for a while during our son's basketball game" and then sleeping closer to me in bed that night (though not touching), but then she pulled back, and nothing since. Although she has stayed in "our" bed with me except for one "very bad day" she had which I think was probably brought on by OM confusion and where she slept in the guest room. Before all this came to a head, we had been sleeping apart, under the guise of a number of bad excuses (differing schedules, didn't want to wake you) for somewhere between 30-50% of the time.
MOST recent development is we had both a) a very nice friend-y talk about work, friends, life, etc AND b) a relationship talk where she talked about still "feeling stuck" for the reasons already stated, DID mention a couple of fond memories she had of us and where I, for a number of reasons, told her I released her from her vows to me even as I still wanted to work on renewing our relationship and did NOT want to separate. (Understand that this was done mostly to remove SOME of the guilt and pressure off of her as she is dealing with alot of issues, not all of which I will go into here, and not because I thought she would immediately bolt-- she is still catholic and the religious/church obligations should still be somewhat of an impediment to her leaving, but this is something I wanted to give her, especially since I feel like our past relationship is "broken" and I don't have a right to make any claim on her given how I neglected her all those years. Plus, I want to be free of the overlay of jealousy and "controlling" love. if she comes back, I want her back because she wants to be with me.
So, what does everyone think? Have i misplayed this? How am I playing it wrong? Should I be dropping the hammer and saying "Cut it off cold turkey with the OM"? (remember the affair is only a bit over two months old and I only found out three weeks ago-- I don't expect any "feelings" there to have dissipated yet.) Do I keep trying to initiate physical contact and complement her, etc? Part of my big conundrum here is that she very obviously and explicitly wants a physical relationship, has been frustrated to one degree or another for close to ten years, but as things CURRENTLY stand, does not see me (I dont think) as a likely partner. She also feels like time is running out on her waning youth and is scared to devote more time to a relationship that was a black hole of sorts for ten years already. to that extent she feels "trapped" and like she is not "making any progress" in her life. I know if we are ever to be together again that it will, by definition, take time and work, but I am not certain that she is willing or able to wait that long. I am confident I can be the man she needs to me to be, now... just not certain that I am going to be given the time.
Last edited by Cadet; 04/27/1709:33 AM.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
I moved you to newcomers so that more people will see your post and be able to support you.
It is estimated that one of every three married couples struggles with problems associated with mismatched sexual desire.
Little compares to the devastation people feel when they discover their spouse has been unfaithful. Couples often struggle to get past intense emotional pain, mistrust, resentment and never ending arguments about the betrayal.
I'm glad you are working with a DB Coach. Stick with the feedback/suggestions you are getting from your coach. Don't panic if the responses/changes you are wanting are slow in coming. Your wife may be guarded to see if your changes are genuine and long lasting.
Please call me when you would like to schedule another session.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator The Divorce Busting Center 303-444-7004
A Divorce Busting Coach can help you save your marriage, even when your spouse wants out.
Email virginia@divorcebusting.com or 303-444-7004 for more information or to get started right away.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL). DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
LBH here, bomb dropped three months ago (January 2016) after I discovered phone/text records and overheard call. Affair (EA)with OM is now approximately 6 months old.
W "drew back" from affair for a handful of weeks but now fully "engaged" with OM yet again. I have successfully implemented GAL measures (which have been noticed), but W speaking out both sides of her mouth. Says she is "not in love" does not "Want to be with anyone" and relationship with OM is on hold, but I recently discovered this is not so and that she is telling him how much she wants to be with him, is "working on" breaking free from me, etc. Two children, older teenagers, and her fear of losing/alienating them are probably only reason she is currently sticking around, IMO, based on things she has said. Also, overheard conversation and way she talked/acted (like a completely different person from the woman I know and married--very vulgar/bawdy, etc.) make me think she is probably what Sandi would designate as a WW... if not for the fact that the affair has still not gone physical (although phone sex has, I think, possibly been involved.) She is still living in the house and in our bedroom, though we are not having sex. The background to our difficulties involves multiple years of neglect (7-10) on my part as the primary culprit.
My question is, at what point (possibly now) do I put my foot down and say "Enough is enough-- I can let you go if I have to but I will not share you. Either you cut contact with the OM or we move you out-- of the bedroom if not the entire house.") Too late for this to have any effect? Too soon for the circumstances?
Curious.
Last edited by Cadet; 04/25/1711:12 AM. Reason: Carriage returns for readability
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Thanks Cadet. I have actually read all that you suggest-- Dr. Michele's books, Sandi's 37 steps, all of Sandi's threads on Wayward Wives, and a couple of others. I have actually been a lurker on here for a couple of months, and have even had a few sessions with a DB coach. I have implemented many of the strategies with varying degrees of success, but there was a LOT of damage done in my marriage by my neglect-- approximately 10 years worth, and the neglect was fairly significant.
The bomb dropped on me in the form of discovering an EA (but a pretty steamy one) between my W and a fairly close friend. Since then, I have struggled with the tension between "creating distance" or "disattaching" and the very dynamic (neglect) that got me here in the first place. My self improvements and life-getting and 180s have been fairly profound and have been noticed and drawn SOME interest, but... not enough to pull her away from the OM.
It has been 3 months since the bomb, and the affair is 6 months old. And it now appears to be ramping up. The recent convo I overheard was pertinent to another uncertainty with which I was struggling, which was WON my W was actually "wayward." Given how out of character she sounded, and given also how she has acknowledged being selfish and "not caring", I think it might be safe to say she is PROBABLY a wayward except... she still has a lot of fear of alienating and losing her children (though not enough fear to get her to cut contact with the OM.) I am very close to putting my foot down and demanding that she cut contact or, if not, we separate (at least "in house.") Wondering if that is the right approach, however.
Last edited by Cadet; 04/25/1712:44 PM. Reason: Carriage returns for readability
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka that I totally agree with.
Originally Posted By: Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
If adultery is not something you're willing to accept then you should put your foot down. That is a boundary. A HUGE one for married people. Don't rage but do be firm about your boundaries and your self-respect.
I think putting my foot down and enforcing that boundary IS the right thing to do here... but it's very hard. Had a couple of zen-types.. good friends... counseling me that I need to be "loving" and "uncontrolling" etc. etc. That, and the personal changes and 180s and a bit of detachment seemed to help... at first. For a few weeks she sharply reduced contact with the OM and seemed to be reconnecting with me. Then, a couple weeks back, something happened. Like a light switch. Not sure what it was but think she "ended up" at a bar night or gathering or event (she goes out with her girlfriends from time to time, one of whom runs in the OM's circles occasionally) where the OM was and things rekindled. Thought things were on the right track, but now more distance (and more hopeless-looking) than ever. Like a roller coaster. Been growing in a lot of ways but this is holding me back because can't move forward. And, of course, I find that I am crazy in love with her.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Same sitch as posted yesterday. I'm a lurker here since January, so not as much of a noob as it might seem. Read alot about WWs, which I am now pretty sure mine is.. and she is in "deep", can't keep herself from going back to him, is planning "future" with him (even though could almost never happen) etc., etc. OM is a former "friend" of mine and is a single divorcee, so no leverage with his wife available to me.
Two very dicey questions as we approach this weekend where I plan to put my foot down and say "Cut contact or out you go":
1) Is it ever advisable to ACTIVELY threaten to tell kids. In my case this is the one thing that I KNOW she fears losing, as she has repeatedly said "I know I'm being selfish... I know the kids are going to hate me.. I don't want to lose the kids", and, after our first talk about "I wont share you" last week, she came back at me a couple days later with "I really felt unsafe and threatened", implying that I had threatened her with outing her to the kids (amongst other things-- putting her out into the street and trashing her, etc.) which I had not even come CLOSE to threatening or even implying. However, come to think of it, now, i would NOT be inclined to lie to the kids to protect her (she has been very "we need to be of one mind if/when we tell the kids.. that this is a "joint" decision and it is not just one of us walking away") if the affair came to light. And I have several times warned her about her being so indiscreet (she is a terrible, as in unconvincing, liar and really, truly horrible at hiding secrets--leaves love notes and her "cheater phone" just lying around etc etc.) and the kids possibly finding out and being devastated (and losing respect for me, to boot.) The OM was not only a friend to me but was also involved with their HS athletic team and a bit of a friend to them as well. Both boys are older-- 16 and 18-- and I think the older one has, based on questions he's asked me, already guessed that something may be up with Mom and this "OM", though I think right now he probably just figures he made a play for her and that is what ended our friendship. At any rate, is this fair game to make an ACTIVE threat? I have for the most part been very "detached" and GAL-centered and have remained positive and upbeat (even loving) towards her since BD, and, for a while, this was paying dividends, until suddenly about three-four weeks back when, I believe, the A went "physical" and everything went to hell. She "trusts" me quite a bit more, now, and an "Active" threat would, to me, seem to be going nuclear. My plan had been to just say: "look, you mentioned "threats" last week, but what is threatening is your behaviour-- to our marriage, and to our children. If they found out [and this is extremely likely given the timeline of this affair and her indiscretion and, even notwithstanding her discretion if they "got together" after a split no one with half a brain, especially the kids, is going to believe there wasn't something going on before... and they are CERTAIN to ask me] they would be DEVASTATED. The THREAT is your relationship with this OM... without that, if we are just going through a break up because we "grew apart", there is almost NO risk that the kids are going to hate you. The only THREAT here is what you are doing extramaritally." Now, that was my PLAN... but... given how this is going (and things are looking increasingly dark/bad for me here) should i consider explicitly "going nuclear" on this? Maybe just leaving it hanging as an "open threat?" (And if I were so inclined, I could go "super nuclear" because I have a recording of them pretty explicitly discussing one of their encounters in addition to "what they like." Yes. Ouch.) Again, as further color, my boys are 16 (almost 17) and 18, so I wouldn't be threatening TOO much "youthful innocence". Just curious everyone's thoughts.
Issue #2) OM is not a total stranger. Was a pretty close friend of mine, and I never talked to or otherwise communicated with him after I discovered the A. Probably a good idea as, for several weeks, I likely would have tried to punch his lights out. I am somewhat more centered and circumspect now, however, as well as more "right with God", (much stronger faith than before), so I believe I could sit across a table from him now without it getting physical. In the other direction, I do not believe him to be dangerous (but, then again, I never thought he'd be someone to steal my wife, either). Not sure what I would hope to gain by doing this, precisely, other than to let him know I fully understand how he used my wife's and my respective vulnerabilities (related to him in confidence) to make his play, and how the fact that he did so notwithstanding the turmoil one of my kid's was going through (my younger has a chronic illness) and how important that child's mother and family was to his well-being and that, even knowing that, he attacked my family. I would also be hoping to maybe rattle his cage a bit by showing i am not backing down nor giving up, that I plan on fighting and exposing him if i can do so without hurting my wife, and maybe just maybe impressing on my wife that I am a man who will fight for her. I understand that this course of action ABSOLUTELY would be dangerous and not recommended in many if not most cases but... wonder if anyone has gone down this path or has thoughts regarding doing so in my sitch.
Thanks, all, and God bless!
______________ M:21 T:25 Me:51, Wife: 48(and looks 35 ) S1:18 S2:16 PA: Ongoing, with former close friend, started as EA in 11/2016 (she is still denying much of it) DB: 1/23/16 Sitch: still living together (same Bedroom). Had first discussion about "I wont share her" a week ago.
Last edited by Cadet; 04/26/1711:30 AM. Reason: threads merged
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Thanks for the consolidate, Cadet (and, again, for all your help!) I was, however, hoping to get some eyeballs specifically on my two questions about "Telling Kids about affair" and "Confrontation", since these are two issues that are very "imminent" for me. Understand that policy is policy, though.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
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